The short answer is to look at the front page where Finn talks about some of the finer points.Quote:
Originally Posted by versus
I am interested here. How many folks have played that blue splash version?
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The short answer is to look at the front page where Finn talks about some of the finer points.Quote:
Originally Posted by versus
I am interested here. How many folks have played that blue splash version?
I've read the front page. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't anything I was missing out on.
Just curious if Eiganjo Castle was viable in this deck Finn? It seems like it's tailor made, but that's most likely the bad player in me talking. ;)
He was talking about Stonecloakers replacing each other so that the opposing Jitte carrying creature can't deal damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Versus
Ohhh, my bad. The a-f were all concerning Cloaker. I misread it as things the deck did as a whole.
edit: Man, Karakas are hard to come by! Seems the only way is through 4 seperate ebay auctions.
I had a shot on 4 Karakas on ebay, 10$ with shipping. At least, 10$ is more like 9.00$ canadian dollars for me. :D And it is the price of 1 Karakas in Montreal.
MAIN CONCERN:
The splash with rishidan port and Karakas and Flagstone got me too many loosing hands to count on. Mulligan is not always an answer.
Taking a hand with 2 Karakas is annoying... but 2 karakas and 2 flastone and it's two less mana for me.
For a splash... we should include at least, one basic land of that splash... but without dual, it will screw us again. The deck run too many none-basic land to splash it without being own by Back to Basic (MUC) or Bloodmage of the Moon or Bloodmoon.
Anyone had test a Winter Orb version? With glowrider and Thorn of amethyst... that should be a real fast lock. Hokori come in mid-game and we had loose on pure aggro-big-beast match. Ghostly Prison + Winter Orb is a SB tech against those. Glowrider + Thorn screw a lot of deck that have 12 or less creatures mix with winter orb, its a GG for us with our little 2 and 1 drops.
But... Including a 8 artifact for disruption, would remove the creature removal of the deck. That is less versatile. Perhaps cutting thorn and winter orb to 3 and putting 2 tutor for 2 jitte and 2 vial... but it will loose tempo.
I had played 100+ d+T game. The deck is nice if the opponent don't know your deck. Otherwise, the deck is slow, your opponent know what are the thing they should do to remove your treats... it's really harder.
For me, the mono-white have better result just in starting hand. And I absolutely love glowrider and thorn... Glowrider is always remove before mangara anyway (by any deck that run spells).
I will try to find a way to put winter orb in. Will try it.. and try a Trinisphere x4 to compare them.
Does with Trinisphere, a StP (sword to plowshare) will need to pay 4 with a glowrider in play? Going on the synergy of glowrider with trinisphere could be better (less cards) than a winter orb - thorn - glowrider but will loose the winter orb speed of the lock away.
Jourdelune
It's not too bad having a couple karakas in your hand because one gets wastelanded quite a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jourdelune
2 Flagstones isn't too bad in your opening hand because you can tap one for mana , play the other one and get two tapped plains.
Yea, that works. However, you can't tap the other one before it goes into the graveyard as a state-based effect. Naturally, when they go in to the graveyard, two triggers go on the stack. (You can choose which trigger go in the stack first, but I don't think that really matters here)Quote:
Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman
I'm really diggin' this. So many cool tricks and surprises can be made and I probably don't even know them all yet. Even SotPC off a Vial durring declare blockers is pretty slick. Obviously Vial set at 3 is the most optimal with Mangara/Cloaker in hand, but set at 2 in certain situations can be the right play, yes?
Couple of questions for those who know the current meta. I've never played in a Legacy tournament ever, so that would be everyone.
It's gonna cost me around $80 to build this not including the Ports. I already own 4 Wastelands, is it the general concensus that Ports > Wastes or can I make due with what I have?
Is Silver Knight still the right choice for this slot with Goblins on the decline? Should/could another WW knight be a better option? Knights of Holy Nimbus maybe?
Do most of you perfer Glowrider over Thorn simply because of having another 2/1 body around even though it cost 1 more to play? Or is Glowrider better in that it can Vialed in as a responce to a tapped out opponent?
I am totally not familiar enough with TES/Belcher and other fast combo decks. Say I'm on the play, what would be the right time/spell to Mana Tithe? I'm guessing the last one (the kill) or do most players leave an extra mana floating just in case of MT or Daze?
Be aware:
D+T is not an auto win in all situations. D+T can disrupt itself quite easily. D+T small creatures chassis can be own by the ned RED Flash pet... +1/-1 to all white creatures.
At first, I had a lot of win on mws, but with the time passing on, I got worse MU. The small beats (except Avenger) cannot hold their ground (except legend that can be bounce... but u can't do it all the time). With a good hand it's better. With a real life deck, it's better. But it's hard. Aggro-control could wreck us. Finn wreck D+T with his new baby deck. 2-0
D+T take time to wins. It can control the game. It can put your game to 20-30 turns. But if the player in front on you can pull his win in turn 2 or 3... it's simply finish. Red burn or normal slight, no prob... old legacy deck that are not put to date, D+T will own them. But if the guyz in front of you runs a Goyf Slight... it's much harder.
All in all, Magic will always be determine by the meta played. D+T got nice versatile utility to be put in any meta and have chance to win with a good SB.
For combo, Chalice of the Void. For Ichorid combo: Tormod Crypt (help against any tarmo/threshold/madness/lifefromtheloam deck).
D+T is not in the deck to beat section. It can win local tourney, local events... 1 time, 2 times, but be sure that people will put some white hate in their deck for the next event. D+T is nice if you like traveling to attend event at different place and times, only to win there and then.
D+T work with surprise and attitude. If your opponent know the deck, you loose 50% of his power. It's by surprise, that your opponent do some error. The first mana tithe rock... the second is rare to come by.
D+T struggle a lot on the red deck with LED putting big creature in play continually. D+T is more control-aggro than aggro-control. On big beast, D+T got the worse part of it. Anyway, it's simply a game of timing and usually with small beats, we got better satisfaction from winning.
I thought at first hand, that it was a deck that have some "place" for some manipulation... changing cards and so on... but the pure white version seems always to have the upper hand.
Jourdelune
Hmmm, with all that being said, maybe it's not the right deck to invest in at the moment. I was just looking for something a little more challenging than Sui, but not as difficult to pilot as Combo and a lot less expensive then anything with two colors. This was the perfect route for me.
Versus,
1. Why not try new decks on MWS before you buy any cards?
2. It is of medium difficulty to pilot, so you don't have to practice all that much.
3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.
4. Glowrider is bad with Cataclysm. Cataclysm is critical, so Glowrider is not being played by anyone I know these days.
5. Try not to stray too much from the central strategy of the decks in the opening post. There is plenty of room for meta changes without disrupting the core.
6. Don't use Silver Knight unless you are sure Goblins will be there in force.
7. You Mana Tithe against TES/Belcher on turn one if you can. Do not tap out for a Vial or Hound or anything. You need to buy time with it. Do NOT wait to counter Tendrils. The storm trigger will kill you if you do.
I'd love to, but I don't have internet at home (long story). I think some if the stories posted on here kinda made me weary of MWS as well. I'm pretty rusty in real life and would probably end up pissing off an online opponent.
Thanks for the advice. I proxied up Finn's list from the front page as a starting off point and plan on trying it out when I get home from work. I think I'm getting a little better at looking at decks and seeing what can be changed to adapt to a local environment and what needs to stay fixed as not to disrupt the dynamic of the deck itself.
However, I'm not really sure on a meta at this point, so maybe keeping Silver Knights in the deck is right choice when going in blind.
About stp+glowrider+trinisphere:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jourdelune
No. You only pay 3. I run 3x trinisphere in my build. The ruling on trinisphere works like this - upon paying for the spell, you check for things that increase the mana cost, then for things that decrease the mana cost, then trinisphere gets its own check.
edit... btw, i run 4-ports, 4-wastelands, 4-karakas, 4-flagstones, and 8-plains. the only hands ive ever had to throw away had 1 land in them - i find that one of the deck's best qualities is that you rarely ever have to mulligan...
i side cataclysm - the only uses i can find for it is against enchantress and goblins. Glowrider is money because thresh HATES it. As long as half of the top8 finishes at major tourny's are thresh - i will continue to maindeck both glowrider and trinisphere...Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish
Can I just say the best thing about this deck is the reactions you get from people when you're asking if they have Karakas for trade. Every one I asked was like "Uhhhh I may have one at home...why??!"
I noticed Finn in his W/u version dropped Orim's Chant. Is it not considered necessary or is it simply because of the Blue splash. Would WW versions still want this in their board?
Of course, the green splash didn't get long in my testing. I got a long ride on death and taxes. I tried different splash with different success. I love to make my own experiment. But... even If I post them, not much feedback have been made, but saying cards are subpar without going further on explicating why surely don't help me either.Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish
I prefer a mono-white version. (really more stable against MUC (back to basic) or Bloodmoon effect or wastelands) I tried a thorn of amethyst + glowrider + winter orb lock. Of course, my Cataclysm are in SB. The lock is fast, and it help greatly against Stompy deck. DragonStompy is really hard MU with the sulfur elemental... Any deck that got more than 8 bigger (5/5 and more or doublestrike hellbent... :S) critter usually break D+T.
I will try to replace the Sword to plowshare with sphere of resistance to give thorn + glowrider + winter orb better lock engine and consistencies. :D ( i really hate combo deck or accelerate deck a la stompy and that kind of heavier taxes should wreck control even more... now Aggro Control is slower but stronger with taxes heavier build than the main list post by Finn... so it really depends on Meta... and in that regard, the shell is really good to be adapt to any local meta). Winter Orb got the privilege to slow man land tactics. It stop any rishidan port user. And really mess deck with 3 drops and more (a la stax). Couple with Auriok Transfixer (to even untap Vial... ), winter orb is more appealing.
The main monowhite list at first page, is really nice. But I like to give surprise to my opponent even If i use a D+T shell. It's harder for the nerds lurking around when they face something taxes heavier.
Of course, withtout StP and Cata in main... it become more a Taxes deck than a Death and Taxes.
Mana tithe without the taxes effect are less appealing for me.
Note: Silver knight are nice even if gobo are not in the tourney. DragonStompy, Red Death, Burn or Zoo don't like pro red at all. It is a reason why I keep Tividar in my SB.
Since, I play taxes heavy, my creature are 3 drops to make the deal with vial. Of course, Isu and Serra Avenger save me from my own lock if Vial is not on the board.
After much testing and going in local tourney, I will made a come back for report.
The fact that Finn seems to have stop his D+T R&D could be a turn over to continue to speak about it. The other concern about it, is a lot of testing have been done before the primer was release and so, we don't got cards performance on old test that have been done... so, it is basically, a go try to test yourself without knowing if it has been done.
And even the main mono white list give on page one, don't perform so well in a lot of situation. And in that regard, I understand Finn going on something new. After the shock and surprise your opponent got on D+T, he will always be better prepare for the next one, and there the deck is subpar to any tier 1 deck. It's the reason why, it is not in the Deck to Beat section, yet.
Jourdelune
Hey Jourdelune. I am not so much done with this deck as I have nothing useful to add at the moment. I am going to Mass this weekend, and this is one of the decks I have with me. Those guys are very familiar with it, and perhaps I can get some new perspective.
I put a lot of money ($100 is A LOT right now) into getting this ready for Worlds. Did I make the wrong choice? It doesn't seem like it's getting much attention as of late.
I realize combo is a problem, but Chant/Thorns/Tithe seem like enough to stall them out long enough to get our guys through. The rest of the creatures spread out between the MD and SB all have purpose against so many of the T1 decks, is it just not enough?
Either the majority of players are like the people I've shown the deck to who think it questionable or "too slow" and just can't see the synergy by deck list alone or it really is underwhelming in application. My testing against other decks is pretty limited, but extremely positive.
I guess I'll roll with it reguardless. Always been a fan of the underdog.
What do you think about the B-Splash? It offerst us with Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant vaible Main-Board options and additional Duresses in the Side and Vindicate in the Disenchant-slot - seems kinda sexy to me. I'll post my list after a little testing later, maybe we could even play Extirpates in the Side and/or Therapys, maybe instead of Duress in the Side?
// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [U] Plains (2)
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [PY] Disenchant
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
That's my current list. Silver Knight is ok but not overwhelming, the fact that Red Gro doesn't like him prevented me from cutting it. Maybe White Knight is an option? Protection from black isn't that bad in times people recognize that Smother is an nice removal right now. The rest of the mainboard is pretty good how it is, the Sideboard isn't that bad at all. What di you think about this deck?
I'm not sure if Thoughtseize is the best idea alongside Dark Confidant - at least not without a way of gaining some life. I would either replace the Thoughtseize with a simple 4 x Duress or alternatively, replace the mainboard Silver Knights with Auriok Champion.
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/384...&%20Taxes58249Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus
Yeah, in a meta where combo is non-existant, mono-white lists are a house. I thought, when a bad Kithkin White Weenie list can top 8 the master, I can win a trial with a good "White Weenie" list. For reference, I faced
Severance Belcher 2-1 (obviously I get one of the "combo" decks, although this was more like MUC with Severance/Belcher instead of Morphling/Meloku. Every game was really close).
Goblins 2-1 (Silver Knight, Jitte, Tivadar. I lost the game when I drew neither and my opponent topdecked his third Ringleader with Vial set at 4 after a resolved Cataclysm)
Vaka Pox 2-0 (Game 1 he destroys 6 or 7 lands, but I get seriously mana flooded :). Game 2 I vial out 2 Avengers with no lands and he doesn't draw Prison or Tabernacle
Ichorid 2-1 (Jotun Grunt and SotPC take this one home. It's so much easier if you are on the play.)
Dragon Stompy 2-0 (Silver Knight > Arc-Slogger. Silver Knight > Tephraderm. Mangara > Pit Dragon. Need I say more?)
I only resolved Cataclysm once, and I lost that game. Strange. Stonecloaker was also pretty underwhelming all the time, I always had one in my hand, but I never even casted one. I found that 6 colorless lands were too much, I often had to mulligan to 6 because of colorscrew. The ports weren't doing a thing all day long so I will take them out.
Brehn is that your list? Congrats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Thorns AND Chants in the board. I was going to go that route as well, but didn't know if I should cut my Tivador numbers down. I don't really know how many goblins are running around in my area so I was unsure.
Wastelands over Ports? You've found them to be superior? They were working great for me, but that's all I was running (4 Ports) as far as colorless mana producers. I guess with Goblins on the decline mana bases are less stable and Wastes are the way to go? I wish I knew this before I shelled out the cash for them.
edit: Maybe you guys could give me some input on this? I'm gonna use the list posted above as an example (my actual list is fairly similar) and see if I even have a grasp on boarding. This is what I'd do:
Belcher: -3 Grunt, -2 SotPC, -4 StP, -1 Mangara / +4 Thorn, +2 Chant, +3 Believer, +1 Disenchant
TES: -3 Mangara, -4 StP, -2 Grunt /+4 Thorn, +2 Chant, +3 Believer
Thresh: -3 Cataclysm/+1 Grunt, +2 Thorn
Ichorid: -3 Cataclysm, -1 Knight/+1 Grunt, +3 Thorn
Survival: -1 Knight, -4 Mana Tithe/+2 Seal, +2 Disenchant, +1 Grunt
Breakfast: -3 Knight/+1 Grunt, +2 Disenchant
Goblins: -4 Mana Tithe, -1 Mangara/+1 Tivadar, +2 Seal, +2 Disenchant
Sui (Black based discard ect): -3 Silver Kinght/+3 Believer
Dragon/Faerie Stompy: Bring in Seals for Chalice?
Am I even close or completely clueless (as usual)?
sweet :cool: I had a match with a pox deck at my last tourny and got similar results. It seems like you did well against your two combo matches. If the Magic-League list is yours, then I must applaud you; it seems very well thought-out. You balanced the sideboard and MD very well. I like how it screws with graveyard-based stuff. It looks very anti-goyf / anti-thresh. The biggest differences I see in this build are 1) only 20 lands (14 that produce W) 2) exclusion of MD Thorn of A., Glowrider, etc. I love the aggro vibe of the list; it looks like it would open up quickly and apply early pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
How many turns does it usually take you to kill your opponent?
How often do you get your opponent in some type of lock?
Have you considered excluding Cataclysm, since you said you played it once and lost that game, lol?
In a meta such as Magic League -- 62 decks, not a single copy of Tendrils of Agony (but one Tinker and one Vamp. Tutor O_o) -- you really don't need Thorns and Glowriders in the main. I built this deck with the Burn/Sligh, Threshold and Baseruption matchups in mind, as these get played very often. That somewhat explains maindeck Silver Knights and Grunts, but still the dissynergy between Grunts and SotPC was annoying. As I said, 6/20 colorless lands is probably too much. About Cataclysm: it's been a while since I really tested this deck so I can't tell.
Concerning the questions about when I win or when I achieve a lock: it totally depends on my draw. There are hands with Vial and triple Serra Avenger, but there are also hands with Karakas, Mangara and double Mana Tithe. That means, you're playing an absolutely different deck every game. Unfortunately you can't take too much influence on which deck you're playing because of the lack of manipulation, you just have to get lucky and draw the Silver Knight/Mangara/Karakas hand vs Dragon Stompy and the Isamaru/Grunt/SotPC hand vs Ichorid like I did, an not the other way round. This is why I'm considering the blue splash for a more general meta.
Brehn, how do you feel about:
9 Plains
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones
3 Wastes
3 Ports
Still 6 colorless mana sources, but 16 white and the ability to run Ports and Wastes togeter. If you feel 20 lands is working for you then by all means drop the Ports and add in 2 Plains, but -1 Isamaru/-1 Grunt MD would allow for the mana base above. Just a suggestion.
I'm gonna test that way for a few days and see how that works.
I would be careful about 6 colorless sources no matter what. A lot of the creatures (much more than in Goblins, which was the basis for the land supply early on) are WW or 1WW, so you are really taking chances. Brehn, if you go the Blue splash, the mana supply is very tricky. I posted one that worked out fairly well for me a few pages back. I got color problems rarely, but also was without special lands from time to time. Again, consistency over "cool things" was the idea.
One more thing for the moment, guys. I played this in Massachusettes last weekend like I intended to (faced Phaerimm Archlord in a finals mirror), and I came upon something. I am returning Glowrider to the sb.
Look at this:I don't agree that Cataclysm is only good in a few matchups. It is usually GG. Before you even consider taking it out, just play enough games where you get to see it in action versus just about every deck not called Threshold. You don't have to time it all that much. It is not dead early or late. It is just a huge shift in board position to your advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeH
But!
In the matchup in which Cataclysm is decidedly poor - Threshold (and its close cousins) Glowrider is a major pain for them. Since this is an important matchup, and a since Glowrider can also come in against a few other key matchups (Belcher, Solidarity), I am going to include it for now. The major drawback of it costing 3 instead of 2 has been largely mitigated by the presence of both Mana Tithe and Orim's Chant. That is, I am seeing atleast one of these guys in my opening 7 g2 and g3 often enough to be able to make a 3-drop against combo almost always now.
EDIT: I almost forgot. This all applies only to nonblue versions. Glowrider is bad with Brainstorm, etc. in your deck.
Death and Taxes isn't played here in Finland at all and I have to say that the concept looks extremely intriguing. I just have to give it a try in some form.
I noticed people mentioning the deck having problems with enchantress. If your meta is enchantress-heavy, how about some Patricia's Scorns in sideboard? By playing a mere small creature or Mana Tithe you're able to wipe their board. This could be occasionally effective against awkward stuff like Pernicious Deeds as well. And it's instant speed which might be relevant when hardcasting it.
I tested for a few hours last night and admittedly I have to agree here. Too many times did I have colorless mana and no Vial while creatures sat in my hand a turn or two. I'd rather the stability on my end then further disruption on theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Now that Glowrider is being brought up again, wouldn't Thorn still be the better more stable option? Or do you perfer Glowrider as a body and the ability to come in at instant speed via Vial?
@Finn
I cannot disagree with you. Cataclysm is a good card. I forgot to mention it is also good against landstill in my previous post. However, running ports/wastes/glowriders/trinispheres seems to have given me more leverage in controlling tempo throughout my playtesting. Cataclysm has good synergy with alot of the other cards in D+T like Mana Tithe, R.Port, Flagstones, Glowrider, Vial .... just about every other card in the deck. However, I have found that when i drop the Cataclysm i end up screwing myself. I would always lose more than my opponent. Even though I would (usually) be in a better position afterwards, it seemed like a bad move. Cataclysm, as you said, is a game winning card when played correctly. Maybe im just bad :frown:
anyway, it looks like goblins are coming back and other weenie decks are on the rise. maybe I should MD 2 Cataclysms or something... I'll keep it in mind.
@Brehn
Ive said this like 3 times in this thread already - D+T is appealing because of its ability to be different each time you play it. I love it!!! Randomness is hard to disrupt and deal with.
Hey, i've played the deck for a while and have been going to over the inclusion of blue...
What do u guys think about leyline of singularity? seems really good on paper but i havent had any really good testing yet >_<
The great thing about cataclysm is that it's one of these few cards that can change radically the course of the game. Sure, it's not great if you have 2 or 3 creatures in play and still some cards to play in your hand (and even then...), but in that case you are probably already winning. It's a great card when it's most needed, ie when you lose control of the game. This is why you shouldn't automatically play it when you have the mana available, but only if you've lost the advantage on the board.
Against aggro, they will usually have more creatures in play than you, so you will gain time and CA. Against control (if you manage to play it), it will make them unable to play alot of cards (and you shouldn't have more than 2 creatures in play anyways). Against aggro-control (I'm thinking in particular of thresh) it's not very good, true. Not particularly useful against combo (apart solidarity), either.
Personally, I've never thought of taking out the card from MD. Some people even decide to play 4 (to add the chances to get one), but it's quite bad in multiples so I only play 3.
Death in Texas by Geoff Pederson (Fayt)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Silver Knight
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Glow Rider
3 Exalted Angel
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mother of Runes
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah
Side Board:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tivadar’s Crusade
3 Pithing Needle
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Armageddon
This is my list that I've been playing for the last few 1.5s I've played in. I don't have much time to explain it right now. But I'll be back a little later to post some match-ups I've had and some changes I'll be making to the deck before the next 1.5
-2 SoFI +2 Cataclysm from the main and I want to cut the geddons from the board... but I think they might do some good the turn after a cataclysm gets played but countered. Please post any thoughts you may have as well as questions.
As for my match ups
Goblins
Its a cake walk... the only thing to keep an eye on is if your starting hand is garbage.
Threshold
For me U/G and U/G/r thresh are just another deck this one just stomps, But U/G/w thresh gives me some problems. You just have to drop an early samurai of pale curtian and your off to a good start. With him in play resolving a cataclysm is golden cause you don't help them get to threshold. But thats just pointing out things we already know.
combo stormbased
The main deck has good hate and after board you just have more. 2-0 and your on to the next match.
belcher
Did they go off turn 1? No? ok play stuff you win dropping teeg says NO! to all their win conditions
salvagers
Haven't played against it, But I do play the deck and I would say that it would be a tuff match cause of the deeds and any other removal they may have. They only main deck hate would be the samurai.. so hope to drop that before they fire off. And hope they don't hit a deed.
Landstill
I've only played against a white landstill once and both times I played teeg turn 3 off a vial with a mom turn 2. But i would think this is another tuff match up.
A number of the cards are the same, and the green splash is one of the more popular recent ones. But you really don't have the same gameplan with the card selections you have made there. What you have there, my friend, is a bastardized Angel Stompy deck. You would be hard-pressed to fit it under what has apparently become the Death and Taxes blanket.
You are missing or under-representing most of the disruption elements, plus you don't have Cataclysm, Karakas, or Mangara. Yikes.
Try those cards out. You will find that it is a tad slower, but it wins a lot of games that are flatly out of reach for Angel Stompy.
I saw so little Death and Taxes at worlds. I cry.
So I put this question to every one. What prevented D&T from making a showing?
Is it Goyf? Cephalid Breakfast? Really, what actually hurts this deck to the point where pros wouldn't consider playing it?
Well, I think I can explain it. I played D&T in both side events at Worlds and not only was I the only one, but the majority of my opponents didn't even know what it was. Everyone had to read Karakas. Most thought it was just WW. In fact there were a few, "Awww, Isamaru? How cute" remarks made and just confusion came when I played a Vial. If the average Legacy player in the know of the format is ignorant of the Archetype, it's not very surprising for the Pros who don't focus on 1.5 to be as well.
Looking at the deck list just makes people scratch their heads. "Where's Savannah Lions???", "Why don't you run MoM??", "Mangara?!?"
I think in order for the majority to take the deck seriously, they have to see it in action while being played optimally. Unfortunately I was unable to provide that. While coming in 12th on Thursday, I did absolutely horrible at Saturday's event. I just kept drawing crap. Never sticking creatures for more than a turn, never getting the Mangara lock, and on the games where I resolved Cataclysm it wasn't to help me seal the deal, but to refrain from losing. I just couldn't get anything going.
Its a white deck. I think the deck that had the most white at worlds was Enchantress. A pro searching for a good record has to play a deck with many good matchups rather than mediocre ones. D&T doesn't have an auto win against anything as far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Goyf is not a problem in my games. I see it a lot, but there are so many answers for it, both obvious and nuanced. Breakfast is not very popular in these parts, but the guy I DO see playing it says he does not like the matchup because of all the outs D+T has. So no and no. You know, I couldn't tell you why it hasn't been more popular.
But Happy maybe right. There are no autowins. Well, if you resolve a turn 2 Samurai against Ichorid, that's an autowin. And Cataclysm resolving against Landstill in the late game is as well. Jitte landing even once against Goblins can do the same. Mangara lock is usually enough to sway even a hard matchup. So there are plenty of autowin scenarios, but those things don't happen every game. Sometimes you are looking at Isamaru and Stonecloaker against Solidarity. Maybe the random factor is a turnoff.
Yes, you guys are right - no autowins. But what about autolosses? None of the most popular decks dominate D+T. It is funny how few people even know about the combo. The first tournament i played D+T in EVERYBODY i played called a judge to the table the first time i tried to bounce mangara. i found it quite funny; the judge was getting irritated by the end of it :laugh: . as for professional quality, D+T is like a hybrid of WW and Stax.
Versus, what did you play against?
First off, I just want to say I don't blame the deck in way or think it inferior. I'm almost possitive the fault lies in the pilot (me). However, my draws just felt really random. So many spells being 2 or 3 ofs and no way to dig for them seemed to leave me with the wrong answer at the wrong time. I made a tourny report for Thursday in that forum, but I'll breifly go over what I remember about saturday as painful as it may be.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeH
UGwb Thresh: Couldn't resolve Vial, never draw SoTC, and when I did draw Grunt he had Shackles on the table. Game 2 I sided in the extra Grunt and 3 Thorns. Mulled to find the Thorn and he FoW'd it. I even waited an extra turn to lay it down and back it up with Tithe, but he had the :1: open anyway.
Thresh: All Vial attempts were countered. Counterbalance stopped me cold. Never stuck a Grunt. Game 2 I actually had the Mangara lock in place and he Stifled Karakas.
Goblins!: I got SLAUGHTERED by Goblins. A match I almost felt was an auto win. Game 2 I mulled to 5 to find a Silver Knight, but ended up with a single Plains and Port and couldn't cast him. I took the chance he didn't have the first turn Lackey and he did. S-G and friends joined the party and even after I had the Knight on the table he was able to get a second Piledriver and overan me. Never saw Tivadar, Jitte, or Karakas in either game.
Standstill: On the games where I resolved Vial I won, but it only happened once. I tried to play around counters. I tried to outpace, nothing. Then the whole 3 judge debacle on weither or not a bounced Isamaru wearing Jitte created counters and I just got disenchanted with the day as a whole and started playing like shit.
Survival: Never drew Stonecloaker or Grunt, he kept recurring Squee and got Genesis in the Yard.
Standstill: The guys brother from the previous match. Same exact deck. Same exact results.
Like I said, I'll just chalk it up to player error and REALLY bad luck. It was my second time ever playing Legacy out and I was completely inexperienced with the decks I was matched against. A better, more experienced player would have met much better results I'm sure. It did real well in testing for me, but tanked in application. Honestly, it was just one of those days I guess.