But without dragonauts, lava dart is very sub-par. Are you thinking in addition to 4 bolts and 4 magma jets?
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But without dragonauts, lava dart is very sub-par. Are you thinking in addition to 4 bolts and 4 magma jets?
Why not run 2 Gelectrodes instead of Dragonauts? Gelectrodes increase your removal capability by turning a Bolt into 5 damage, a Magma Jet into 4 damage, or a standard cantrip or counter into 2 damage. This gives you far greater removal and reach options as you can now remove Enforcers and Werebears easily and burn someone from less than 10 health down to zero. One of the problems would be that he only has 1 toughness so is easily removed by almost anything. On the other hand, the turn after he hits play, you should be able to zealously remove most of the creatures on the opponent's board. There is also the distinct lack of card advantage with Pyroclasm, but in that case, you can simply Pyroclasm first and then play Gelectrode since most creatures that would be killed by Gelectrode would be killed by Pyroclasm in the first place.
Isochron Scepter > Gelectrodes
I think so too, but isn't Scepter better than Dragonauts too?
What does this deck do to Jotun Grunt? Double Burn is a pretty bad strategy, seeing as if they're protecting grunt at all (which they should be), A failed double burn attempt will probably be fatal. Do you sideboard for it, or just take the loss?
The untapping effect of Treachery is not important enough to justify the 5cc (even 4cc is pushing it). All your counters except Counterspell work when you're tapped out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
Lava Dart's power level is too weak to justify its inclusion. As it is, the decklist is very tight. Actually, the cantrips are the awesomeness with Dragonauts, since you can "chain" them for massive damage (e.g. Portent, Serum, Bstorm swing - 7 damage) and dig for the lethal Burn at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
While the effect is interesting, the 1-toughness is a real bummer. I don't want threats that die to Mogg Fanatic. Dragonauts have 3 toughness, which is really handy to block Goblins or other 2/2s. Dragonauts also survive Pyroclasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by cRUMMYdUMMY
@Mad Zur:
Angel Stompy is harder for UGR, I'll give you that. To be fair, UGW also doesn't have a favorable matchup against AS (it's 50/50 at best). With the addition of Jotun Grunt, it becomes worse for both variants.
With the broad term "aggro" I meant stuff like Goblins, Zoo, Fish variants, Red Death, Deadguy, Affinity and the like. Not all of these are strictly aggro, but I hope you get my point. You want more than just 4 Swords for removal. You really feel the difference between 4 Swords and 8 Lighting Bolt/Magma Jet in those matchups.
My UGR build definitely has a better Goblin matchup than UGW, especially after boarding. Needle is already working overtime, and the 4 Tinkerer/Hooligan version (like Machinus ran) can handle it quite easily.
Pyroclasm clears their board, and Stifle makes sure they don't refill with Ringleaders.
Either you are joking, or you're underestimating Magma Jet. Hoping that it's the latter, I'll try to explain.Quote:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Predict
Basically, because Jet fulfills multiple functions like instant speed-library manipulation/removal/damage, I think it is a lot better than Sleight. I already have 12 U-cantrips, which are sufficient.
I get the feeling that you're underestimating Burn in general. The additional damage quickly adds up, especially if your opponent uses Fetchlands. Those additional points of damage are the reason why UGR is faster than UGW. Because Thresh doesn't have a strong late-game, I think it is imperative to make things clear in the mid-game. UGR is better in this regard.
While Burn is worse than Swords against pro-red and fatties, it has the big advantage of being useful against control and combo (or deck without creatures in general), unlike Swords. Against control packing counters, Bolts and Jets become must-counter spells if their life-total is low. Against control without counters (Loam deck, Rock, Survival), I often won games I wasn't supposed to win because of direct damage. Against combo, at least you improve your clock.
Also, if you see that you can't handle your opponents threat, you can simply "chain" Burn at your opponents dome. Dragonauts really help to assist this Plan B. This flexibility I think is an important advantage of UGR.
I admit that pro-red creatures and fatties pose problems, hence Control Magic and FTK are in the sideboard.
Try out my list and tell me what you think!
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My solutions are Control Magic and FTK. Especially Control Magic is mean against UGW with Grunts.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Grunt is not a friendly sight. You can do some combination of block and burn. You SB flametounge kavu. Some people have tried Control magic and control magic effects. You can counter... in short, Grunt hurts but you do have answers.
Once again, Vedalken Shackles is also another option. But Sbing Flametongue Kavu isnt a bad move either. Since it's both card quality and card advantage, it's also quite safe to start a counter war for this guy's resolution. Fighting over Vedalken Shackles resolution is somewhat decent, but it can easily be Needled.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenOmnipotent
I also realized this deck's mana base could easily help if play Anarchy, what are your thoughts? It hits both Grunts and Angel Stompy's men.
If there is a lot of Angel Stompy or decks packing white in general, feel free to use it (although personally I haven't seen such a metagame). The sideboard can be customized easily, and the cantrips help a lot in finding those sb answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
i don't think anarchy would be a plan vs. all Jotan Grunts. It's more specificly if the deck is playing mages, enforcers, etc. If it's just the grunts that I'd bevery happy with the FTKs. But yeah, I can see Anarchy doing pretty well. Worth testing at the very least. I already run 2 in my SB for Angel Stompy. I don't feel you can win otherwise.
Try Threads of Disloyalty. The mana difference makes it a sideboard option against Gobs and Black disruption too since they play ld.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo
The text difference makes it unplayable against Goblins, so the fact that Threads can't take Enforcers or Dragons in the mirror probably makes Control Magic better.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Against Goblins, I'd rather have Pyroclasm and Stifle. Threads also don't address the one of the main problems this deck has, which are fat creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Control Magic is really good.
What does everybody think about my Dragonaut list?
What are your thoughts about the UGR vs UGW debate?
I actually really like the dragonauts, but I worry that putting your "fatty" into bolt range could be detrimental. I will try him out in my UGR build.
As for which splash is better, I keep wanting to play red every time I lose to goblins or zoo, but then I play against stuff like salvager game and angel stompy and remember why I love swords so much. Grunt and monastery seal the deal for me.
But honestly, if I was playing in a meta with a large population of aggro decks, I would switch to red in a heartbeat. Until I stop seeing mid-range aggro-control decks, though, I'll stick with white.
although I'm not saying its a bad Idea, I really don't like the dragonauts. yes the ability is sweet, but with a body of 3, a bolt wrecks them, and they arent a good blocker if your opponent resolves a creature with power 3 or greater. dragon is better because he is already a 5/5 flyer, and you can pump him up with r (usually can swing in with 5-8 damage regularly) and if needed you can block.
Dragonauts are awful. Your tapping yourself out on your turn to make him Gro. Even in the late game, his awful because your card advantage is synthetic, it's not meant to last that long. Also, the body dies to Bolt, and can be targeted. It no way is that card able to swing the game around like a Fledgling Dragon, and in no way is it disruptive.
Also, UGr > UGw. I made up my mind today. UGr can deal with Combo much better UGw can, and can win the most rediculous games with some burn cards aimed at the head.
So how are you going to solve Grunt now?
In the entire course of the game, your only using your counters for Geese and Fliers, and the Geese and fliers resolution. So what do you do? Use a couple Burn Cards to hit the Grunt. If he counters, counter back. Now you both ran out of counters. Take advantage of this opportunity to play your Geese and fliers and go all out.
I'm sure theres a good reason, but why does no one run Kird Ape? Its pretty much 1 for a 2/3 most of the time. Is it because its not big enough, has no evasion, can't be pitched to FoW, and doesn't contribute to attaining thresh? Despite this, it seems like it would be a pretty good beater early game and blocker late game, since its not dependent on thresh.
one reason...no taiga...this means that its never going to be a 2/3 turn 1...also, it CAN be targeted..its not dependent/big enough...basically, it doesn't have good psynergy w/the deck.
From the above statements, it's evident that you haven't played with Dragonauts yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Dragonauts sure as hell can swing a game around.
First, tapping out when you're having Dragonauts out is not a bad thing, since it is mostly for cantrips, which dig for free counters and more cantrips. If your opponent decides to destroy them, you can counter the removal spell and pump Dragonauts even more.
I also don't get what you mean by "synthetic", but I can assure you that Predict draws you enough cards to fuel the cantrip engine and Dragonauts.
As for Bolt, aside from the UGR mirror, there isn't a consistently performing deck that runs Bolt. Even then, you can counter it.
Unlike Fledgling, Dragonauts are infinitely easier to cast and can be pitched to Force if you don't need them. Dragonauts also get their bonus from something you'd be doing anyway (cantrip chain), but Fledgling simply eats the mana for pump.
Heres what I mean by synthetic, and this is also coming from a player playing with the Hatfield Configuration of Cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo
This deck doesnt ensure card advantage, just quality. The whole reason why Predict was good in the first place was due to the fact that it cuts the dead card on top and nets you two. It thins your deck by three cards technically, but sadly, it's based off of reliability.
The card still requires set-up, and making an attempt to pump a the Dragonnauts are a poor move because FoWs and Counterspells always get hardcasted mid-late game. Pitching it to other counters and cantrips is just a way to set you off your Midgame state, forcing you to make poor plays. I have never had any pleasure pitching Cantrips to FoW mid-late game, as Cantrips find me even more answers, and Counters are just general answers.
As for the cantrip chain philosophy, it sadly ends, as Portent is a slowtrip. You wont be pumping your Dragonauts until your next turn. Predicts arent always reliable to have around as well.
Having to deal with grunt is a new problem I don't see UGR overcoming easily. Before that card was printed I was using 4x Loaming shaman 2-3x stifle as my board strategy (against UGW). But now....FTK is probably still your best bet overall.
I suppose the best build to deal with a card like that for now is probably one of Wastedlife's variants of ThreshGro. 4c has good removal if your open enough for a 4th color for Confidant, Ghastly Demise, and Duress in the SB. 3c ThreshGro with 11 Burn cards can also deal with it easily, as your not burning every creature out, except for the fatty fliers, as it's just reach. Jotun Grunt can easily be an exception to this rule. The only variants I know cant do it at this moment is SARCASTO's version he used to Top 8 the GP Philly, and the Hatfield version which nobody plays anymore because White has better removal and better Sideboard options.
Actually, against UGW, your best bet is Control Magic. Together with FTK, I say you have the edge against UGW boarding Grunts, since your sideboard strategy trumps theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
I don't think this is true. While Swords is stronger when comparing it directly to Lightning Bolt, UGR has *more* removal spells, which double as additional reach. Against anything that isn't pro-red or has a toughness of 4 or higher, it doesn't matter if you cast Bolt or Swords. Actually, Bolt is slightly better in this case since your opponent doesn't gain life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I also think that the sideboarding options like Pyroclasm, FTK and REB are vastly underrated. There is also Ancient Grudge against Affinity and Angel Stompy.
?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Predict is a 2for1. With 16 manipulation spells in my version, you almost always draw 2.
Do you mean Predict or Dragonauts with "the card"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I don't get what exactly you want to say with this paragraph (no offense).
That's why you end your cantrip chain with Portent. Incidentally, this is also the correct play if you're digging for Burn, as discussed a few pages ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I don't get why you're thinking Dragonauts are so awful. I'm not saying Fledgling is bad, but his casting cost is really hard, especially when there are Wastelands involved.
Often, you Predict at opponents eot step, untap, play a combination of cantrips and burn, counter removal if there is any, and proceed to swing for a massive amount of damage.
Example: Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Bolt, attack, counter removal with FoW - that's 12 damage total.
Quote by bongo:
Example: Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Bolt, attack, counter removal with FoW - that's 12 damage total.
do you always want to brainstorm on your turn? bolt on your turn? it the turn you just described wasn't lethal, than you basically just opened yourself up anything the opponent has to throw at you. you're basically giving up the control element. you're tapped out, have no more mana/cantrips/counters in hand..then what? dragon allows you to swing for 5-9 (you don't have to use up all your red sources) AND still leave mana open so you can respond to the opponents goblin piledriver with a brainstorm followed by a bolt or a counter. I guess it just depends on if you're trying to go all out aggro. thats what dragnoughts seems to be doing.
@Bongo: I do not think Dragonauts are awful now. Debates are there for a reason ya know.
I believe Dragon is still better because he can break the ground war and he is a bit harder to deal with, and you dont have to leave youself to anything stupid the turn after you play him. But I will test Dragonauts, and I will get back to you with some results.
Why not Mind Harness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Because Mind Harness can't take Jotun Grunt. Stealing Serendib Efreets and Exalted Angels also comes in handy. Also, sometimes you want to keep the creature for more than a few turns (which then costs about the same amount of mana as Control Magic). Rarely do you want to take control of a creature in the first 3 turns, so Control Magic is sufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Nice idea though.
You can play Mind Harness more easily in the mid-late game than Control Magic, with the ability to also use it in the early game. Granted it can't steal Grunt or Angel, but I'm not sure the huge cost difference isn't worth it. Someone should probably test it, at any rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongo
I tested it a bit in Faerie Stompy and found that I liked the more expensive, but broader solution better (in FS, Binding Grasp, in Thresh Control Magic). As a general rule in sideboards, broader, slighlty crappier cards are generally better than their more specific but less boarded cousins (see Crypt vs. Grunt).Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Control Magic just has too many matchups where it is great (Reanimator, Affinity, AS, Fish) where Mind Harness is complete crap.
(Off-topic side question)
When I used to play this splash over the white one, and ran 8 burn spells (bolt and jet), I remember occasionally having problems with not having enough blue cards for FoW. Have any of you had problems with this?
I do understand that replacing magma jet with fire/ice would solve this, but I'm not really willing to lose the power of burn+scry.
This deck needs 25-26 Blue Cards in order to play properly. I doubt it's Magma Jet's fault, as it can ensure you card quality. Ask anyone who plays this deck a lot in this thread, they run Magma Jet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
I was running 25 blue cards, but again, I had issues quite a few times. It really made me want to find a blue replacement for dragon, but I doubt that's the way to go. Dragon has been just too awesome for me.
The only viable replacements for Fledgling Dragon are Wee Dragonauts, Serendib Efreet, Sea Drake, and FtK. Those are all perfectly viable, and are really good. If you want to run Winter Orbs in the SB, run Sea Drakes. If you want something evasive, fast, and cheap, run Serendib Efreet.
I played this deck in a tournament yesterday and I wen't 3-1 only loosing to the rock because I called wooded foothills (he plays 4 of them) instead of Pernicious Deed (yea I know it was stupid...I usually call deed, but I wanted to slow him down to win the early game) big mistake...but I beat affinity (hard match-up) soldiarity (a really good player) and I got a stupid bye first round...this is what I played
4 wooded foothills
1 flooded strand
1 poluted delta
1 forest
1 mountain
1 island
4 tropical island
4 volcanic island
2 fledgling dragon
4 mongoose
4 wearbear
4 mental note
4 accumulated knowledge
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterspell
4 lightning bolt
4 fire/ice
3 pithing needle
sb:
2 control magic
3 red elemental blast
3 loaming shaman
3 pyroclasm
3 krosan grip
1 counterspell
It's a little different from the builds we've been discussing. I tried the version with magma jets and there were too many times early game where I had 2 or more 2cc spells, and I was like CRAP thats too much mana right now. its nice to have 1cc spells the first couple of turns so you can play multiple spells or to better develope your early game. It was wierd but 17 mana seemed like too much yesterday! I kept hitting land and I kept siding out a forest. I forgot the FTK's in the sb and i'm sure they would have helped me out. and I left out winter orb as a meta call (a lot of affinity lately for some reason)...mental note with AK is pretty sweet. gives me thresh and lets me draw more cards. I think I want to cut the needles for stifles or for 1 more daze, 1 more counterspell and something else...
Your list is terrible...Quote:
Originally Posted by lukatron2
oh wait... there are mental notes in there... you should thank the guy who gave you that advice... also you should thank him because he let you use his volcanic islands...
Also don't run Magma Jet if you're not running Predict
Decks that run AK without Intuition make me sad...
LT...
Luke, keep running Magma Jets. Fire // Ice draws you shit, and Magma Jet makes your draws gold. Predicts are good, but I think it's because I'm more of a player who plays decks from the east coast. Magma Jet is slow, so you may go back to Fire // Ice.
@Luke, drop AK. Your making yourself more vaunerable to Tormod's Crypt. Mental Note is good versus Solidarity. Also, did you play against Josh or Jeremy for the Solidarity match? Also, wtf isnt Serum Visions in there? It's friggin' Turbo Xerox, that cantrip is important. You not only draw business spells, but you set-up your mana base for the next turn. It also kills off dead draws. Luke, this deck is about Card Quality, run it, if you know the history of this deck, and the reason why I run 12 cantrips, you'll understand the Turbo Xerox philosophy. Dont cut Needles, it gives you a decent edge versus decks like Affinity and Faerie Stompy which is rampant in the meta. Also, a list you should run, which I showed you a thousand times. PM for the list, or just talk to me on Wednesday, Wastedlife won a Mox tournament, and top 8ed a Lotus Tournament.
IF you want a cheap answer to jotun grunt I suggest Lightning Dart
1R
Instant
deal one damage to a creature, if its blue/white, deal four.
This is also exellent against FS.
Ok, I'm just about ready to drop dragon. Who's with me?
In all seriousness, I want to try something with this deck. I've realized that more often than not I brainstorm/predict dragon away, or don't cast him because a) I don't need another beater, and b)I want counter mana up.
Most of the games I lose with this deck are due to being unable to handle a big play by an opponent. Now, counters are obviously the answer to this. But that's just the problem: If I dont have counters in hand, or don't have the mana for them, I can just scoop to worship, solitary confinement, etc.
When I played the white splash I actually had room for a maindeck echoing truth for such scenarios. This deck, on the other hand, is much more tight. The bounce doesn't fit in any slot except...dragon's. Now, I'm not proposing that we replace our flying beatstick with echoing truth. Instead, I want to ask a question: can anyone thing of a card that could go into that 2-of slot that could allow us to handle random permaments that slip through the counter wall? How about on a creature, so that the beats can continue?
All I've come up with is trygon predator and repeal as candidates, and I'm unhappy with both. You can go ahead and call me crazy for trying to bastardize the deck like this, but I simply see a weakness and I want to solve it. Ideas?
I like Repeal.... but I dont like Trygon Predator in this deck unless your meta is infested with Faerie Stompy, Angel Stompy, and Stax. If you want to answer them early, just run more cantrips and counters.
Well its actually the purely reactive answers that annoy me, so more counters doesn't solve that. But, I don't think this is such a big deal. In my search to replace dragon, however, I did stumble across a possible candidate: eternal witness. The double -G cost and small body at first turned me off the idea. But double green is much easier than double red due to werebear. Plus, when it comes into play I not only have a 2/1, I also have a force of will/bolt/brainstorm/predict/fetchland/mongoose from my grave. Its versatility in giving me back what I need makes it kind of appealing. I'll test it, and I'm pretty sure I'll be unsatisfied, but I think it's worth a try.