Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sroncor1
Iona really shouldn't be a be a problem. I actually think the reanimator matchup is a very favorable one. Meekstone kicks them in the dick, and our combo is as fast as theirs. The key to the matchup is knowing when to drop a Moon effect as it can totally lock them out, but it also can cut out your second color which is really important. I think if you play the matchup a little you will see where this deck can attack reanimator. I know I struggled with it a little, but since they have dropped Dark Ritual, it has not been a problem. This past weekend I smashed it at the Starcity Open.
The main problems with this deck are Zoo, Tendrils, and Belcher. Shitty midrange G/B/w decks are also troublsome but they are generally shitty and you shouldn't see them in the latter rounds as they lose to combo, zoo and other tier 1 decks.
I have recently switched to a white splash and i really like it with the current meta. If you are in a heavy counterbalance, tempo thresh meta, then the blue splash is probably best. But if you are playing in a meta like the Philadelphia open, then I think the white splash is best.
well actually iona is a problem :
against reanimator : their key cards Entomb & Reanimate (or exhume) are black which nullify the blast effects in the early turns.
againt survival bant : they will be able to fetch it turn 3 and play turn 4 which gives us a rather short clock, i know our deck is fast BUT it doesn't always kills on turn 2/3 and moreover survival bant and reanimator got counters to slow us down.
our outs are comboing turn 2/3 or Moon turn 1/2.
about Ant, i find the Mu decent, and never had that much problems i wouldn't call it a bad MU.
Zoo is indeed anoying maybe TukTuk can help or Grim (which i am currently testing) and meekstone help as well.
about SHITTY (because those decks are simply just BAD) decks G/B/w i goddamn despise them, i HATE to see them in the latter rounds (i don't even understand how sometimes they can be there in those final rounds) ... i mean wtf can you do againt t1 seize t2 tourach t3 tourach ... I just hate discard ...
and what about your white splash ?
give us some input.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
@ryo,
i tried long tiem ago grim lavamancer adding more fetches to the mono red bild to make him worthwhile, but i couldn't activate him more than a couple of times per game. we don't put a lot of cards quickly in the yard as burn, sligh, goyf sligh or zoo so i despised him as an option, but i don't know waht build are you trying with him.
anyway i like your approach with the blue splash, as for your sb, i'll cut the magus(you have 5 moon effects md), the heretic, shattering spree is way better and probably one of the lightnings.
hope that helps.
thorin
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I had been testing a white splash for a while now as Countertop and Tempo decks have dropped off the map in my area. I also watched Paul Lynch use Absolute law to some good effect against Zoo decks. So I put 3 Enlightened Tutors in the deck and main decked 1 Blood Moon. Nothing revolutionary but it really has helped the Zoo match up. It is still not favorable but I finally feel that post board I can out play my opponent and have a chance to win. I will say this though, I think the white splash makes the deck harder to play because you have to commit sooner to a game play, sometimes during the first turn, which means you have to attack your opponent. I'll post a list later today or Saturday with what I played at the Philadelphia Open along with what I plan to play at the Baltimore open that 0-2 drop is running this weekend.
In response to re-animator, I know Iona can slow us down, but a first turn Figure can sometimes just race. Not to mention that the combo is colorless. The player will call red most likely, which makes the enlightened tutor so strong because it can find the other piece. And we can attack their mana base. I really do feel like it is a positive match up, but I have played the fuck out of it. I haven't lost a sanctioned match against it in some time, probably going on nearly 3 months.
I would be interested in hearing what you do against Tendrils as I lost twice with the combo on the table needing to uptap. In my experience if they ponder, you lose the next turn or something terrible happens. It is winnable but sometimes our hate just doesn't slow them down.
Rock decks do piss me off bc they are so bad against the rest of the field, but they have so much discard and targeted removal that it is rough.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I haven't read through this entire thread, though it seems the most relevant one for my questions. I have read through the Epic Painter thread and the Next Level Painter threads.
My question is whether or not there is a viable mono blue deck for this combo, one that utilizes BEBs and Hydroblasts in the same manner that Imperial Painter uses REBs and Pyroblasts. I casually play with a U/B deck that does this, but I just started playing Magic again after a long haitus and haven't yet played against other Legacy decks, though I plan to try it out this week in a local Legacy tourney. I used to play a shitty version of MUC and tried going with that as a shell before I decided to add the Black b/c I liked having Confidants and the option for Lim Dul's Vault. But the purpose of the post is to see if a blue control version using BEBs and Hydroblasts with Painter's Servant is viable. Any thoughts would be appreciated, and again, since I haven't read all 40 pages of the Imperial Painter thread, the idea may have already been discussed. Thanks.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nexus blue
I haven't read through this entire thread, though it seems the most relevant one for my questions. I have read through the Epic Painter thread and the Next Level Painter threads.
My question is whether or not there is a viable mono blue deck for this combo, one that utilizes BEBs and Hydroblasts in the same manner that Imperial Painter uses REBs and Pyroblasts. I casually play with a U/B deck that does this, but I just started playing Magic again after a long haitus and haven't yet played against other Legacy decks, though I plan to try it out this week in a local Legacy tourney. I used to play a shitty version of MUC and tried going with that as a shell before I decided to add the Black b/c I liked having Confidants and the option for Lim Dul's Vault. But the purpose of the post is to see if a blue control version using BEBs and Hydroblasts with Painter's Servant is viable. Any thoughts would be appreciated, and again, since I haven't read all 40 pages of the Imperial Painter thread, the idea may have already been discussed. Thanks.
the main thing is REB even w/o painter is hardly a dead card due to the current meta.
on the other hand BEB is 99% of the time a totally dead w/o painter in play.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I haven't posted here in a while, nor have I played the deck. I am very happy with this decks possibilities of being strong again with the banning of Mystical Tutor. That just turned 2 of the tougher matches away, but now we need to focus mainly on zoo. I will be posting a new decklist soon and some general ideas. I can't wait to pick this deck back up.
-Chris-
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
im also gald tutor got the cut. by the way, do you think grim monolith is worth in our deck? it can speed 2nd turn kill combos or playoing 1st turn trinispheres after sb...
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I don't see myself playing Monolith, because we don't have a way to untap it without dumping mana to it every turn. I don't want to have to make more space for voltaic key as well. I didn't play Trinisphere before mystical got banned and I'm not going to play it after either. I'm not trying to down play Monolith, but I don't really care for it too much in this deck. I more or less have a new list worked out, but I just can't figure out a sideboard right now. I will post it soon when I figure that part out.
-Chris-
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I've tried some slight changes to my Painter list in the last two weeks, and they're working very well. Last week I got top 4 at my local tournament, and yesterday I went to a 39-person tournament in Dallas (Garland) TX for a Mox Emerald with six other guys from here in Houston, and I placed in the top 4 again with Painter. Here's the list I was playing last weekend:
8 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
4 City
4 Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Figure
2 Magus
2 Jaya
4 Blood Moon
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 REB
3 Top
4 Grindstone
SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Lignthing Bolt
2 Relic
2 EE
2 Shattering Spree
1 Faerie Macabre
Last week I beat Merfolk, lost to Goblins, beat Bant Survival and finally BEAT ZOO to get into the top 4. In the top 4, I was rematched with Zoo and I lost a very close 3-game match.
Yesterday, I made some last-minute sideboard changes to deal better with Reanimator: -4 Trinisphere, +2 Faerie Macabre, +1 Magus, +1 Blast. I felt like the these changes would still give me good hate against ANT and Dredge and I was really only losing hate against Charbelcher and Hypergenisis, which would be much less likely to run into at a bigger and unknown metagame. Of course, I didn't end up facing Reanimator, but I did get my one loss in normal play by running into Charbelcher.
The metagame in Dallas had the normal amount of random stuff you might expect at a special event, and the top half of the decks that I rememnber were Merfolk, Zoo, Reanimator, Counterbalance, ANT, Enchantress, Bant Survival, Charbelcher, Lands, and I know one Mono-Green Chalice Aggro finished 3-3. I went 4-1-1 to get into the top 4:
First match was against a BW Deadguy variant. Both games, I was hit by Inquisition of Kosilek on the first turn, but both games, Figures that were dropped early went the distance after a Moon was dropped later to lock him out of white.
The second match was the most difficult win of the day. It was aginst RB Goblins. Game 1 he beat me before I could combo or do anything of real significance. Game 2, I was able to burn every one of his early guys, and beat for the win with Figure. Game 3 was pretty crazy. He mulled to 6, and didn't have a turn 1 play. I was able to burn all his early guys and beat with some small dudes while using Top but there was like a 3 or 4-turn period of crappy topdecking that let him Ringleader himself back into the game. Luckily I was able to use 2 Recruiters to find Servant, Figure, and reshuffle my library enough times to find Grinstone. The Recruiters and the 1 recruited Figure provided just enough blocking to let me survive and combo off.
The third match was against Kevin Ambler's BG Merfolk. In the first game, an early Blood Moon actually disrupted him significantly and I was able to combo. The second game, I had an amazing anti-Merfolk hand with like 3 Blasts and a Magma Jet, and he had some pretty crappy draws, so it was a quick game.
Match 4 is when I played Charbelcher. I actually won game 1 because he used the free Serum Powder-mulligans twice and removed his one land from the deck and didn't realize that when he went to Land Grant for the Charbelcher win on his first turn. He did have an Empty the Warrens in hand, so he created 10 tokens instead. I had played a turn 1 Figure with a Mox out to ramp once as I was on the play. I then proceeded to drop a Servant and chain Recruiters twice into a second Figure and block enough tokens to stabilize and attack into him with Figures. I lost the second game after keeping a hand with EE and Spree. He played a turn 1 Lotus Petal, and I decided to hold my EE and Spree and hope that I would be given at least one more turn to use them. Then he Charbleched on turn 2. The third game I mulled once into a hand with the combo on turn 2. This is the best thing I could possibly hope for, but of course, he doens't give me second turn as he Belches again on turn 2.
I played Merfolk again in the fifth match, and won two fairly easy games.
I drew into the top 8 and played Thopters. In the first game, I was able to beat pretty quickly with Figures. Game 2 took a while. I was able to drop enough Moons and Magi to buy me a lot of time while applying slow pressure. After he removed all my guys with Firespout, we both went into topdecking-with-Tops-mode for several turns as I played guys and he removed them. He had also played two Aura of Silence so casting stuff for me was difficult. Luckily, I didn't miss a land drop for most of the first 10 turns, and I had been able to keep 2 Moons and a Grinstone on the board, so that he didn't want to pop both the Auras and the Moon effect remained. In the end, a fully-ramped Figure beat for the win.
In the top 4, I was matched against my friend Jeremy playing Bant Countertop with Jace. Game 1 I was on the draw and I mulled a hand that had only 1 Mox as the mana source, but had a Figure, Blast, and Top. The second hand had no mana at all, so I mulled again and had a hand with no red mana, but had an Ancient Tomb and a City along with a Servant. My draw provided a Grinstone and I thought for second there might be a chance. But the Servant was Forced and he proceeded to beat with a Warmonk. Game 2 I had a turn 1 Moon or Magus, which locked him out and I beat for the win. Game 3 I was able to get an early Magus again, but no other beatdown to back it up before he configured Countertop. He played his Countertop perfectly countering all the 2 cc and 3cc spells I could cast, but my Magus beat him down to 3 before he stabilized with Jace and won. Jeremy ended up winning the tournament with that deck.
In conclusion: 4 Moons MD makes your Zoo matchup much better and is a much more solid lock overall. You can't float a white in response to Moon and STP it, or Firespout it. I think the benefits outweigh the downsides even though I obviously don't have a great Goblins matchup. Especially given the new bannings, which should, if anything, increase the Zoo prevalence, I would maximize your chances of an early Moon in game 1.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Has anyone considered using Combust in this deck? It seems like you might be able to shoot down Tarmogoyfs quite frequently. From the M2011 spoiler:
Combust 1R
Instant
Combust can't be countered by a spell or ability.
Combust deals 5 damage to target blue or white creature. This damage can't be prevented.
Illus. Jaime Jones #130/249
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malchar
Has anyone considered using Combust in this deck? It seems like you might be able to shoot down Tarmogoyfs quite frequently. From the M2011 spoiler:
Combust 1R
Instant
Combust can't be countered by a spell or ability.
Combust deals 5 damage to target blue or white creature. This damage can't be prevented.
Illus. Jaime Jones #130/249
This just seems like another tool for RDW in Standard against Baneslayer/Wall of Omens etc.. Without Painter in play, this would be fairly lackluster for us in general.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malchar
Has anyone considered using Combust in this deck? It seems like you might be able to shoot down Tarmogoyfs quite frequently. From the M2011 spoiler:
Combust 1R
Instant
Combust can't be countered by a spell or ability.
Combust deals 5 damage to target blue or white creature. This damage can't be prevented.
Illus. Jaime Jones #130/249
Read your post again, sit back, and think... I think you can see exactly why that post wasn't that smart...
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hawdes
Read your post again, sit back, and think... I think you can see exactly why that post wasn't that smart...
He was obviously referring to Painter in play...
Which is of course still an incredibly bad idea, but still more useful than your post.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
At this point, you have to consider your Zoo matchup when adding anything that relies on Painter to be good. If Combust targeted white and GREEN creatures, it might be a different story, but
as things are, I think you have to ask these questions:
Is it worth it to add more cards that are dependent on Painter?
Is the Painter-dependent card in question better than Active Volcano (or Red Blasts if you're not running 8 currently)?
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I have tested the lists of this thread in MTGO and the last DrewliusMaximus's list seems to me the more competitive of all. I have to note that the Zoo matchup is almost impossible to win (perhaps because I am not too experienced with Painter).
I added 1 Stingcourger and 2 Ensnaring Bridge to the SB for Show and Tell decks (a plague in MTGO meta).
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Combust
Well it does kill pridemage outright, unlike red blast. I was originally going to use 2 so I could get up to 10 "blasts", but I fear losing my 2x magma jet. Also, are there any good replacements for figure of destiny? I don't have any right now and instead I'm just using 2x sword of light and shadow and 1x goblin welder and 1x viashino heretic as a mini toolbox. Also, how important has lightning bolt been in the sideboard? I currently use earthquake (and I don't use EE, so the quake is also for killing tokens).
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
I have tested the lists of this thread in MTGO and the last DrewliusMaximus's list seems to me the more competitive of all. I have to note that the Zoo matchup is almost impossible to win (perhaps because I am not too experienced with Painter).
I added 1 Stingcourger and 2 Ensnaring Bridge to the SB for Show and Tell decks (a plague in MTGO meta).
As long as you're running 4 Blood Moon MD, the Zoo matchup should not be unwinnable. I beat Zoo again this past weekend on the way to splitting top 2 at my local tournament. A turn 1 Blood Moon will generally win you the game outright, but even on turn 2, it should lock them out of at least one color. My general strategy against Zoo, beyond playing Moon if possible, is to burn away their guys, drop chump blockers, and draw out their removal with Figures until I can play Servant and combo off in the same turn, hopefully with Blast protection. Burning away Pridemages is especially important. If they have enough mana to Grip, you may have to live long enough to attempt the combo twice. If you can manage to grow a Figure to 4/4, you should be able to hold off attacks and even put pressure on them. This is how I usually sideboard:
-2 Jaya, -4 Blast, -2 Magus
+2 Relic, +2 EE, +4 Lightning Bolt
In post-board matches, you can usually burn away early guys and occasionally get 2 or 3-for-1's with EE. Relic keeps their Goyfs and Knights manageable, and combines with Top and Jet to help you keep playing business spells. Sometimes, you'll be able to get your Figure to 8/8 later in the game, which will usually also win.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Thx Drewlius - I will follow your guidelines in Zoo matchup.
A question to all: M11 brings 'Leyline of Sanctity' a zero mana enchantment that crashes our combo and M11 adds nothing (except Combust that I thought is too conditional and against another preocupation, the creatures of the opponent).
Do you think that REBs/Pyroblasts (after Painter arrives on board, of course) are enough to struggle that? Or we need to reconstruct the deck in a more aggro way as in one color we dont have enchantment destruction? Add Green or White splash?
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
I added 1 Stingcourger and 2 Ensnaring Bridge to the SB for Show and Tell decks (a plague in MTGO meta).
Can't you just counter Show and Tell with Blasts? If for some reason you're finding that is not enough, Duplicant is another answer you could try.
Quote:
Combust
Well it does kill pridemage outright, unlike red blast. I was originally going to use 2 so I could get up to 10 "blasts", but I fear losing my 2x magma jet. Also, are there any good replacements for figure of destiny? I don't have any right now and instead I'm just using 2x sword of light and shadow and 1x goblin welder and 1x viashino heretic as a mini toolbox. Also, how important has lightning bolt been in the sideboard? I currently use earthquake (and I don't use EE, so the quake is also for killing tokens).
Yeah, I'd keep Jets as the Pridemage solution. Re Figure, I don't know of any good replacements. The thing is that he is both a 1-drop and a true win condition on his own, and I don't know of any other dudes like that in red. For me, the Bolts in the SB have been crucial. For a while, I was trying Firespout but it was not usually a good thing to kill my own creatures against aggro decks, because they would re-build their army faster than me and win. The Bolts let you deal with Zoo and Goblin creatures efficiently while still forcing them to use their cards to deal with your creatures. But I have not tried Earthquake.
Quote:
A question to all: M11 brings 'Leyline of Sanctity' a zero mana enchantment that crashes our combo and M11 adds nothing (except Combust that I thought is too conditional and against another preocupation, the creatures of the opponent).
Do you think that REBs/Pyroblasts (after Painter arrives on board, of course) are enough to struggle that? Or we need to reconstruct the deck in a more aggro way as in one color we dont have enchantment destruction? Add Green or White splash?
Leyline of Sanctity is not all that scary because you can Blast (or Jaya) it, and a deck that plays 4 of them will probably give you time to do that. The real problem for our combo is Emrakul and to a lesser extent, Progenitus. But remember, Imperial Painter does not need the combo to win. Many times our best way to win is to drop a Moon, Recruit a Figure and beatdown.
Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DrewliusMaximus
The real problem for our combo is Emrakul and to a lesser extent, Progenitus.
If Emrakul resolves and doesn't have haste (I think in Sneak Attack) we can return it to their hands with Stingcourger or remove it with Duplicant (as you suggested), but Progenitus is another problem as we can't remove or bounce it. Also, we can't counter Natural Order except if we have a Painter ante. In any cases, Ensnaring Bridge prevents them to attack and gives us tempo to combo off. It works also against Iona, but for a limited time as we will reach the 7th card limit. An unusual solution, as someone said in another thread, is Noetic Scales, but it doesn't work in hasted Emrakul case.
