[Deck] The Rock

I run a 3/3 split of Edict and Plow. Most of the time, when I want to hit a specific creature and edict won't do it, I probably want to sweep the board anyway. Edict gets around pesky things like Emrakul and Progenitus, as well as giving me a good split for Iona.

I'm starting to really love KotR. I've beaten a turn 3 Emrakul and a Progenitus off SnT today with double KotR. He's such a beat stick. The Emrakul guy SnT'd, I dropped a second KotR, used him to pull fetches and fetch twice when he attacked, dumped all 3 of my lands in the yard, went to 1, then turned around and smacked him for 20 with double KotR. Re-damn-diculous.

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Originally Posted by brianw712

@JimmyC27:

1) Pretty much the consensus on the Swords/Path discussion is that, in any non-Zoo deck, Swords > Path. The Rock isn't trying to kill the opponent as fast as possible, so the life boost isn't too relevant. However, some builds of The Rock try to capitalize on tempo by playing Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise, and that tempo is completely negated if you play a Path on one of their creatures. Not to mention you can Swords your own creature for the life against Burn or Zoo, while Pathing your own creature for life is a lot less rewarding.

2) That's entirely dependent on the rest of your deck, so if you're willing to share your list, I'll be happy to tell you what I think. Personally, I like Elspeth better as a finisher, since you'll never randomly draw that Progenitus with no way to put it back, and it doesn't cost you a creature if it gets countered.

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Here's the list, nothing too crazy:

Land (23)

2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
3x Windswept Heath
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas (or Bojuka Bog depending on the meta)
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Wasteland

Creatures (15)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Knight of the Reliquary

Stuff (22)

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn
4x Swords
4x Vindicate
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Crucible of Worlds

Board (15)

2x Krosan Grip
4x Mindbreak Trap
3x Engineered Plague
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Choke
1x Karakas or Bojuka Bog



I was playing around with -4 Hymn, +3 NO, +1 Pro. My logic was that even though you get a solid 2 for 1 with Hymn, you don't get to pick the cards you discard, and that seems a little risky. I also hate drawing excess discard late game. Dunno if it'll work, but I'm open to feedback. Thanks homie.

-Jimmy

all these new approaches we have seen in the last pages made me think a bit about my own build, in which i was not totaly satisfied with a few cardchoices

right now i am tinkering a bit with following list

22 lands

3x verdant catacombs
3x windswepth heath
2x bloodstained mire (still do not have march flats)
2x overgrown tomb
1x godless shrine
1x temple garden
2x swamp
2x forest
2x plains
1x volrath's stronghold / karakas (depending on meta)
1x horizon canopy
1x wasteland
1x maze of ith

16 creatures

4x tarmogoyf
3x knight of the reliquary
4x kitchen finks
3x dark confidant
2x eternal witness

23 spells

3x senseis divining top
4x swords to plowshares
2x ghastly demise
3x vindicate
3x pernicous deed
2x life from the loam
1x ravens crime
1x worms harvest
4x thoughtsieze

Sideboard

1x bojuka bog
4x leyline of the void
3x diabolic edict
3x leyline of sanctity (if you all tell me they are so strong against combo, i sure will get them, though not sure on the number of copies)
2x krosan grip
2x pinthing needle

i was hoping you all could give me some feedback on this list, i was also wondering what you think of ravens crime, has it still any use or is it to narrow, if its to narrow in your opinion it will probably be cut for another horizon canopy

@Both Steve & Jimmy, Why not main the utility lands? You both play a ton of lands, cut a dual to get what you need done. It won't really be too much of an issue if you cut a dual for a Karakas or an extra swamp for a Bog.

@JimmyC27: Hmm, I tried something a little like that list before, and what I found was that the manabase was too unstable. Your manabase only has 19 color-producing lands, four of which only produce one color. Also, you have a BB requirement on turn two due to Hymn, as well as 13 cards that cost 3. I found that this caused me to be mauled by any deck with the Stifle/Waste/Daze package, including Merfolk, New Horizons, Tempo Thresh, etc. Including Natural Order wouldn't help these matchups, since it costs four (five if you need to play around Daze), and would require you to play Dryad Arbor, which might put even more strain on your manabase. Also, you only play 11 green creatures (12 with Dryad Arbor) for Natural Order, which is about what CounterTop Bant plays, but you don't play cantrips to find those creatures nor CounterTop to protect them from Swords. I think playing some sort of accelerator like Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise (or Mox Diamond like Brad Nelson did) would help the list the most.

@ Aggrosteve

Nice list! Your list looks like a cross between Trisomy 21 and the Rock. I'll be honest here, Raven's crime seems alright here, assuming you get Loam online. So it being only 2 slots is fine, since it's not your main discard package

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When I was using 3 Leyline of Sanctity in the board, I was always wanting 4 in the Matchups it mattered in.

I really love how the Rock can take so many different directions and still be the Rock. It's so fun to brainstorm :D

Have you guys been trying Sylvan Library? Even as a one-of with Confidants and Tops, it gets freaking ridiculous. Top, stack to lose no life to confidant, draw 3 from Sylvan, put back 2 OR draw an extra? Dig 4 every turn?

It sucks with Deed mind you, but in the matchups I've had it online, it's been wonderful. The 4 life can be a hit, but it's not much more you'd take off a hard Confidant hit.

I'll be posting a list I did decently alright with the other day. I'll post tomorrow.



-Matt

after more testing i have done i have come to the conclusion that ravens crime can really rock the house :D, honestly if you get startet early with loam and crime you probably will not have anything to fear anymore, by turn 3 the opponent will have lost 4 cards (of 10) and it wrecks control completely

i was not that happy with worms harvest though, first i thought it would be extremely broken but, most of the times i just got 3 or 4 tokens not more, i think if i will keep loam in the list this slot will possibly go to gigapede

i was wondering about other ways i could get something into the list with which i could build an engine for card advantage from, or should i just put some cycle lands in there, so i will have a higher count of lands in total, which actually would not be that bad, specially since i have only 21 manaproducing lands, but what to cut in that case, and what options of other cardchoices would fit the deck well

and man, its quite difficult to play with loam in a rock build, specially since i love to know what i draw thanks to divining top,
in my testings, if i did not have it i screwed up way to often because i dredged because i did not know what i would draw, which is not acceptable, specially since i have recursion mainly for my lands, and otherwise only witness and stronghold, which is not that efficient in recurring other stuff, because its way to slow, does anyone have suggestions here?

a question i have is, what if you draw with sylvan library, but you do actually dredge for your loam, what happens to the "lose life trigger", do you lose life or do you not lose any?

i would love the help, and i think i actually need some with this list^^, so please tell me everything that comes to your mind

Jimmy - Your list seems pretty solid and i like it. I would consider dropping a savanah for another land that produces black because of the double black requirement if you're running hymn. The tops work well with bob, though you may also want to think about mirri's guile, it doesn't suck up all your mana and allows you to do other things with it. since you are drawing 2 per turn, this is pretty important.

Aggrosteve - I've played a few variations of rock and currently been doing well with the loam, you can find my list on the previous page. Worm harvest certainly doesn't fit your list because you're not loam heavy. It's almost like loam is just tossed into there. I think you need to add more synergy to make loam shine or just take it out. It's better just all or nothing, otherwise it's just underpowered. I never liked the raven's crime. It never did what i wanted to and always just sucked, even with my land/loam heavy build, but i've seen a lot of other people play it who say they like it so i'm not sure. Definitely 4x leyline of sanctity!

well raven's crime can provide you with a softlock other than the wastelock, which is quite useful, but if you like it or not probably depends heavily on your own playstyle, i for my part like softlocks^^, and in fact loam is actually in my list just for that cause, to provide me a softlocks, and to assist the divining top shenanigans so i could always search for the cards i need

but i think you are right regarding worms harvest and as well on the all or nothing principle, until now i have not been overwhelmed by loam, at least not in the list i am right now playing because as you stated there is not enough synergy in my list to use loams potential to the fulliest, i will try some other things with the list now, and see how it works out for me, maybe i will try cutting confidant for a stronger loam approach, not sure though yet, or i will take loam out again and try a different approach

thanks for your comments though, they helped a lot

@ Magicsk8ngenius: i still have one question reguarding your list, when i started using loam and i dredged i often lost a lot of my removal, did you have the same problem in your list, and if yes, how did you solve this problem?

That's the reason why you're also running Top: you have to time your Loams. You can't just Loam all the time like 43 Land, and that's why I find the deck usually needs to be Loam based, or just play it like Landstill does: get a few lands back, but you use it to help against getting Wastelanded, not as your primary engine like 43 Land.

I see your point with Raven's crime being the nuts. If you play Trisomy 21 (which I think you should try out), you'll see Raven's Crime IS Mind Twist in that deck because you've also playing 4 Loam and 6 cycling lands.

Also Steve: dual land prices have cooled off for the time being. Time to take your Lemonade stand money and get some! :tongue:

-Matt

i was wondering how trisomy 21 list look like right now, because in the trisomy thread the latest post with a GBW list is about 5 or 6 month old

ravens crime can definitely be extremely strong, and now that i have done some testing with the list i realized how to use loam the most efficient way i think, maybe i will be cutting confidant just to see if i like it better with more loams in the deck

but i do not think that i will actually go all trisomy with my build, because i will never cut goyf, knight of the reliquary and kitchen finks again i like them just too much, maybe though i will build a more hybrid-list of the decktypes, that would be possible, i definitely could see gigapede fit the deck, i'll try, and see how i like it, if not that much, i will try another approach again to my rock-list

and yes i will surely get me some duals, losing life just because i need mana sucks

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i was wondering how trisomy 21 list look like right now, because in the trisomy thread the latest post with a GBW list is about 5 or 6 month old

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I once tested that deck and it was retarded (hence the name, i guess) but afaik it has some problems against fast aggro like Vials or Zoo..

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i will never cut goyf, knight of the reliquary and kitchen finks again

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I was just thinking of Trisomy list with Knights, that's something i would play..

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Originally Posted by brianw712

@JimmyC27: Hmm, I tried something a little like that list before, and what I found was that the manabase was too unstable. Your manabase only has 19 color-producing lands, four of which only produce one color. Also, you have a BB requirement on turn two due to Hymn, as well as 13 cards that cost 3. I found that this caused me to be mauled by any deck with the Stifle/Waste/Daze package, including Merfolk, New Horizons, Tempo Thresh, etc. Including Natural Order wouldn't help these matchups, since it costs four (five if you need to play around Daze), and would require you to play Dryad Arbor, which might put even more strain on your manabase. Also, you only play 11 green creatures (12 with Dryad Arbor) for Natural Order, which is about what CounterTop Bant plays, but you don't play cantrips to find those creatures nor CounterTop to protect them from Swords. I think playing some sort of accelerator like Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise (or Mox Diamond like Brad Nelson did) would help the list the most.

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I haven't had trouble with the mana base, but I also haven't been stifled/wastedlanded/dazed often either. I normally try to keep a two handed land, and go Scrubland, Bayou, then Savannah. This normally sets me up to do pretty much do anything I need to. How are you laying out your lands? Have you tried the George Baxter analysis through Magic Workstation?

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Originally Posted by Magicsk8ngenius

Jimmy - Your list seems pretty solid and i like it. I would consider dropping a savanah for another land that produces black because of the double black requirement if you're running hymn. The tops work well with bob, though you may also want to think about mirri's guile, it doesn't suck up all your mana and allows you to do other things with it. since you are drawing 2 per turn, this is pretty important.

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Mirri's Guile looks awesome. I'll check it and give it some testing. Thanks yo!

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

@Both Steve & Jimmy, Why not main the utility lands? You both play a ton of lands, cut a dual to get what you need done. It won't really be too much of an issue if you cut a dual for a Karakas or an extra swamp for a Bog.

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Seems like stretching beyond 3 non-mana producing lands runs me tight on mana. I'll give -1 Savannah +1 Karakas some testing though. I never seem to drop more than 1 Savannah during a game.

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I haven't had trouble with the mana base, but I also haven't been stifled/wastedlanded/dazed often either. I normally try to keep a two handed land, and go Scrubland, Bayou, then Savannah. This normally sets me up to do pretty much do anything I need to. How are you laying out your lands? Have you tried the George Baxter analysis through Magic Workstation?

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Well I don't play the same build anymore, I'm testing a more aggro build with ~27 creatures atm. But when I did play the build like yours I would put Bayou/Scrubland into play, and finally Savannah. Against an unknown deck, or against a deck I knows plays Wasteland, I would try to fetch basics whenever possible, even if it means cutting off some of my options. Getting Wastelanded early on a two land hand can lose you the game; playing Dark Confidant instead of Hymn on turn two might not.

Never heard of the George Baxter analysis, I generally just put as many lands in as "feels right." Don't know if this is the best way to do things, but it's the way I've always done it.

Magic Workstation (www.magicworkstation.com) has some mana analytic on it, based on casting needs. Seems like if you can fetch up about 14 sources of any one color from this deck, you should be alright. Regardless, first turn stifle on a two land hand is really rough to draw out of.

You can check and see how many of each mana symbol appear out of the total (example, 27 black out of your total on all cards). Then, you see which are your primary, secondary, and tertiary colours. By knowing the amount of lands you have space for, and the percentage of stuff that's black, you can determine how many of each land type you'll need. Example, 15/30 mana casting costs are black, so you'll need about 50% of your lands producing black, maybe even a bit more to make sure you have that colour.

That's how I usually design the manabase, and it works decently well.

Speaking of Trisomy 21, the deck is the absolute nuts against anything NOT Storm based. It has so much LD, it's so dirty. Problem being, it's a hard deck to board with, as it's Loam based.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

You can check and see how many of each mana symbol appear out of the total (example, 27 black out of your total on all cards). Then, you see which are your primary, secondary, and tertiary colours. By knowing the amount of lands you have space for, and the percentage of stuff that's black, you can determine how many of each land type you'll need. Example, 15/30 mana casting costs are black, so you'll need about 50% of your lands producing black, maybe even a bit more to make sure you have that colour.

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Yo, that's interesting. How do you take into account average casting cost? For example, a Legacy deck is probably around 1.5 - 2.5 average casting cost, where a Type 2 deck would more likely be 2.5 - 3+. Do you usually shoot for around 18-22 mana producing lands?

Cheers,
Jimmy

@Aggrosteve: Yes, I do dredge a lot of removal into the grave, but it's all in how you use the loam. Unlike 43 lands, you're not loaming all day everyday. Typically you do it on an as needed basis. Sometimes when you absolutely need and answer you can, but it's important on what you bring back. This is the reason why I play 6 cycle lands. When looking for answers the loam will bring back a land + two cycle lands (aka two draw spells) or if it's later in the game or I'm desperate for an answer loam brings back 3 cycling lands (aka 3 draw spells) This will tend to find any answers needed. Otherwise you can just loam to keep a wastelock going, build up knight/terravore or if you're playing against a control deck, just build up that card advantage by getting them cycling lands going.

Playing loam in this way makes it so that when you draw those mox diamonds later in the game, they're not dead draws, just a second land for the turn really and help you draw insane amounts of cards. All the while feeding knight and terravore.

To do average cost, you can find out how many you have total (total spells), and see how many you have of each, and see what percentage.

Example, you have 3/15 spells that cost 2, 2/15 3-drops, and 10/15 1 drops, you need some percentages.

2 Drops: 20% of total (.20)
1 drops: 66% of toal (.66)
3 drops: 14% of total (.14)

(2x2) + (2x3) + (10x1)= some number

(some number)/15 = average CMC. You're basically adding up the total casting cost of every card, then dividing by the total number of cards to get the average. The percentages are there to show how top or bottom heavy your deck is. Also, I thought I needed them for something else, but apparently, I didn't.

In Rock, if your curve is ~2 (1.8-2.2) I tend to find 19 mana producers + utility lands enough. If you're curving closer to 3, 22 Mana producers are your safe bet. You also have to expect getting Wastelanded twice, conservatively.

-Matt