[Deck] Solidarity

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Originally Posted by Zinch

I really haven't playtest extensively the reanimator match-up due to time issues, but I don't see it that hard. In SB I have 3 Speel Pierce and 2 Twincast that can be sided in against it (twincasting a reanimate is one of the coolest things in the wolrd... Lol, but it also can twincast a fow or a thoughtseize). I know this can dilute the combo, but this answers give you time to find more lands and sculpt your hand.

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It depends a lot on their sideboard though. I played three times against Reanimator in my last tournament with Solidarity, going 1-2 in matches. The match loses were both to the same guy (swiss rounds and top 8) running 8 Thoughtseize/Duress between MD and SB, in addition to the counters, etc - i felt like i just didn't have a chance. They just won't attempt to reanimate anything if they haven't cleared the way first. In contrast, the match i won was against a build with a much lighter density of Duress effects, which was much more manageable. And it did help that he kept a slow hand.

Of course we have some defense against Reanimator but it still is a very difficult matchup.

I played Sol in the GP, me and cjvja, and we faced in a mirror in the GP in which I noticed that peek was the best card in mirror,
I faced 2 merfolks 1 reanimator 1 zoo 1 mirror

I played 3 R.Trap in side and for example playing 100000 games vs reanimator I'd loose 100000, vs merfolks was more than same even with the PoN from side, I played vs the merfolks&Fae variant which is even worse...

when I faced the mirror (after one I dropped) I was quite sad mainly because of the choice.

A point I played 4 Cunning main which I do not regret,

I'd like to xplein more in detail de match ups but it's trivial,

next time I'll play 4 relics in base and 4 PoN.

just to say shit shit an more shit, I did not make mistakes, maybe the mirror, just no way.

When do you get to chose the targets of the copys of Brain Freeze? Is it when you cast, and you chose them all, or when they resolve?

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

I played Sol in the GP, me and cjvja, and we faced in a mirror in the GP in which I noticed that peek was the best card in mirror,
I faced 2 merfolks 1 reanimator 1 zoo 1 mirror

I played 3 R.Trap in side and for example playing 100000 games vs reanimator I'd loose 100000, vs merfolks was more than same even with the PoN from side, I played vs the merfolks&Fae variant which is even worse...

when I faced the mirror (after one I dropped) I was quite sad mainly because of the choice.

A point I played 4 Cunning main which I do not regret,

I'd like to xplein more in detail de match ups but it's trivial,

next time I'll play 4 relics in base and 4 PoN.

just to say shit shit an more shit, I did not make mistakes, maybe the mirror, just no way.

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Wow,,, A solidarity mirror in a 2220 players GP... That's bad luck. I've never remotely thought of testing the mirror (I don't have to, in my meta I'm the only Solidarity player), but it has to be the most annoying and at the same time fun match.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

When do you get to chose the targets of the copys of Brain Freeze? Is it when you cast, and you chose them all, or when they resolve?

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If I'm not totaly wrong, you have to chose the targets for the copies when the storm ability triggers

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

When do you get to chose the targets of the copys of Brain Freeze? Is it when you cast, and you chose them all, or when they resolve?

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You name targets as you put each copy on the stack *. All targets must be already assigned by the time the copies start resolving.

In cases where you want to freeze yourself X times but target your opponent with the Y remaining copies, you will have to decide the values for X and Y beforehand (and of course, stack them in the right order depending on which ones you want to resolve first).

Edit: * i.e. when the storm ability triggers, as Zinch has already ninja'd.

Hello everyone,

I'm a long time lurker, first-time poster on The Source and I'm looking to take Solidarity to a local tournament this weekend.
I have a few observations / questions I'd like to share with you guys, mostly in random order.

The big one regards going off during your opponent's turn with damage on the stack, that is to say the 'make or break' moments. In these cases not only do you need to BF, but also find a way for your opponent to draw that extra non-existant card that wins you the game. I'm wondering how you guys go about this. Personally, I have a Words of Wisdom in the SB (in addition to the Stroke of Genius), giving me the possibility to BF -> Wish for Words -> Words. This can be hard to eke out if you're in a tight spot or getting outraced with your land and overall storm count being relatively low.

You should have the upper hand on most storm decks for a simple reason: you can go off in response to Tendrils on the stack. Storm will always be up to 8 or 9 to begin with, and with the aforementioned BF + Remand + Wish the win seriously comes out of nowhere. This is also why it's a good idea to go head first into counterwars, between FoW'd High Tides and Remanding you can go off with a starting storm of 5 easy (Just make sure you have some back-up plan if you whiff!)

Daze is almost always a non-issue because as soon as Tide resolves, you should tap all your lands to have enough mana floating. I can't foresee a situation where having one less mana would seriously hamper me.

Twincast in the SB is nuts. It shines against opposing Duress / Thoughtseize, especially when your opponent is trying to protect his combo before going off. A lot of times I'll side out FoW in favor of these bad boys.

Goyf turns out to be less of a threat than I originally expected for a simple reason: our deck only runs two cardtypes, and in the early game so does Countertop in most of its versions (I haven't tested against the Thopter Foundry version that runs Thirst for Knowledge and I could expect that to be problematic). The good news is that CounterTop has A LOT of dead cards in hand.

I have a feeling that most people who prepare to play against combo expect ANT and Solidarity can have the upper hand due to its ridiculous flexibility. Do not underestimate the instant-speed win–I've realized that sometimes the opponent does most of the work for you, so you can squeeze in a few extra spells and win the game.

Your observations are mostly correct, except for damage on stack. Unfortunately, damage no longer uses the stack.

An impo trick though is try to resolve high tide in your opponents upkeep before they draw an extra card which could be countermagic.

I don't run Words. Its bad. If you are in a tight spot, for instance, lots of land and Forces post-meditate(s), Wish for Tolarian Winds, and continue your chain. It works wonders and has won far more games than you'd expect. There aren't many situations in which I'd find Words instead of Meditate.

The combo matchup is actually fairly good. Remand becomes really good in that sure your opponent gets back his business, but its pretty irrelevant if he can't ramp back into it. Post-board, Mind Break Trap wrecks them.

This is the list I play IRL. I recommend it over the versions with FoIn and Cryptic Command. Peer does the same job as FoI but finds cards while you set up. Cryptic Command is just bad. At 4cc you I've extremely rarely hit enough land drops for it to be playable. I go off pretty consistently on turn 4 with this list.

Solidarity:
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze

SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Ravenous Trap



Btw, I don't know if anyone has been keeping track of the new set, but Mark Rosewater has told us that there will be a Draw 3 for U with some sort of draw back. If it turns out to be an instant than I think it could be playable.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=229943

What drawback could it be? Even if its something as 'bad' as skip your next turn, its more certainly playable in solidarity over something like Opt.

Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Your observations are mostly correct, except for damage on stack. Unfortunately, damage no longer uses the stack.

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Fair enough, but it is still possible to go off as a response to creatures attacking you or a spell dealing you damage on the stack, so I guess it's just a matter of wording it in terms of rules :D

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Originally Posted by ristoman

The big one regards going off during your opponent's turn with damage on the stack, that is to say the 'make or break' moments. In these cases not only do you need to BF, but also find a way for your opponent to draw that extra non-existant card that wins you the game. I'm wondering how you guys go about this. Personally, I have a Words of Wisdom in the SB (in addition to the Stroke of Genius), giving me the possibility to BF -> Wish for Words -> Words. This can be hard to eke out if you're in a tight spot or getting outraced with your land and overall storm count being relatively low.

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You can either make them draw a card or Turnabout all of their creatures. You should go off before they declare attackers if they're going to swing for the win. Stroke doubles as an insane draw spell or kill condition in situations where you get multiple High Tides going. Words of Wisdom is a wasted sideboard slot, since you will never wish for it except to kill your opponent.

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Originally Posted by ristoman

You should have the upper hand on most storm decks for a simple reason: you can go off in response to Tendrils on the stack. Storm will always be up to 8 or 9 to begin with, and with the aforementioned BF + Remand + Wish the win seriously comes out of nowhere. This is also why it's a good idea to go head first into counterwars, between FoW'd High Tides and Remanding you can go off with a starting storm of 5 easy (Just make sure you have some back-up plan if you whiff!)

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Most storm decks have the upper hand on you because they are about two turns faster. Force of Will and sometimes Remand will be your only outs, and if they Chant you, it's over. You can't go off in response with only two lands, and often not even with three. Also, you'll need to make them draw a card, which as you said earlier is difficult in a tight spot such as this.

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Originally Posted by ristoman

Daze is almost always a non-issue because as soon as Tide resolves, you should tap all your lands to have enough mana floating. I can't foresee a situation where having one less mana would seriously hamper me.

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The trick is getting High Tide to resolve. Even if you Twincast their Force of Will, leaving one of your four lands untapped and a High Tide resolved, are you going to be able to Reset? Daze is quite often relevant.

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Originally Posted by ristoman

Twincast in the SB is nuts. It shines against opposing Duress / Thoughtseize, especially when your opponent is trying to protect his combo before going off. A lot of times I'll side out FoW in favor of these bad boys.

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Twincast is one more mana than Duress/Thoughtseize. You will never Twincast turn one ever. Maybe they Duressed you before going off and you Twincasted it back, but they still Duressed you, so you're both going to be slowed down, and they topdeck mana/bombs much better than you do.

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Originally Posted by ristoman

Goyf turns out to be less of a threat than I originally expected for a simple reason: our deck only runs two cardtypes, and in the early game so does Countertop in most of its versions (I haven't tested against the Thopter Foundry version that runs Thirst for Knowledge and I could expect that to be problematic). The good news is that CounterTop has A LOT of dead cards in hand.

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I'm not aware of any real deck that runs Thopter Foundry and Tarmogoyf, but Counterbalance is your real problem. Grizzly Bear backed up by Counter/Top is more than enough.

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Originally Posted by ristoman

I have a feeling that most people who prepare to play against combo expect ANT and Solidarity can have the upper hand due to its ridiculous flexibility. Do not underestimate the instant-speed win–I've realized that sometimes the opponent does most of the work for you, so you can squeeze in a few extra spells and win the game.

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Sometimes it's better to go off when they've played three spells already, rather than wait longer, even if they don't have a threat on the table, especially if you have access to two Brain Freezes and the mana for them.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Your observations are mostly correct, except for damage on stack. Unfortunately, damage no longer uses the stack.

An impo trick though is try to resolve high tide in your opponents upkeep before they draw an extra card which could be countermagic.

I don't run Words. Its bad. If you are in a tight spot, for instance, lots of land and Forces post-meditate(s), Wish for Tolarian Winds, and continue your chain. It works wonders and has won far more games than you'd expect. There aren't many situations in which I'd find Words instead of Meditate.

The combo matchup is actually fairly good. Remand becomes really good in that sure your opponent gets back his business, but its pretty irrelevant if he can't ramp back into it. Post-board, Mind Break Trap wrecks them.

This is the list I play IRL. I recommend it over the versions with FoIn and Cryptic Command. Peer does the same job as FoI but finds cards while you set up. Cryptic Command is just bad. At 4cc you I've extremely rarely hit enough land drops for it to be playable. I go off pretty consistently on turn 4 with this list.

Solidarity:
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Brain Freeze

SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Ravenous Trap



Btw, I don't know if anyone has been keeping track of the new set, but Mark Rosewater has told us that there will be a Draw 3 for U with some sort of draw back. If it turns out to be an instant than I think it could be playable.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=229943

What drawback could it be? Even if its something as 'bad' as skip your next turn, its more certainly playable in solidarity over something like Opt.

Discuss.

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If you don't play FoI, play only one Brain Freeze main. It's a dead card during the combo and we don't want too much cards of this kind (we have 18 lands and 4 fow yet, we don't want much more)

I've been upset so many times in the past with this kind of clues that I don't expect nothing from them anymore. Also, prety sure is a sorcery. I hope not, but how many good instant draw spells were printed lately?

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Btw, I don't know if anyone has been keeping track of the new set, but Mark Rosewater has told us that there will be a Draw 3 for U with some sort of draw back. If it turns out to be an instant than I think it could be playable.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=229943

What drawback could it be? Even if its something as 'bad' as skip your next turn, its more certainly playable in solidarity over something like Opt.

Discuss.

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Instant draw 3 for U without any drawback for combo decks? I don't like the idea of a playset of Ancestral Recalls in every storm pile. I really don't expect it to be instant and it probably won't make any CA (your opp draws 3 too, you discard 4... something in that direction I'd say).

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Originally Posted by herbig

Most storm decks have the upper hand on you because they are about two turns faster. Force of Will and sometimes Remand will be your only outs, and if they Chant you, it's over. You can't go off in response with only two lands, and often not even with three. Also, you'll need to make them draw a card, which as you said earlier is difficult in a tight spot such as this.

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Originally Posted by herbig

Twincast is one more mana than Duress/Thoughtseize. You will never Twincast turn one ever. Maybe they Duressed you before going off and you Twincasted it back, but they still Duressed you, so you're both going to be slowed down, and they topdeck mana/bombs much better than you do.

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What you say is true, but we're bordering nut draw goldfish situations. If ANT wants to go off turn 2, it must sacrifice protection for mana and tutoring. Getting up to 5 mana turn 2 requires at least 2 accelerators and on average a tutor. Infernal Tutor is the only tutor ANT can use in the same turn as going off, and countering it creates a momentum swing that will most likely win you the game. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while ANT can goldfish real fast, it does so expending a huge chunk of its one-shot resources. Against Islands, ANT must slow down in order to obtain information. I would expect a good ANT player to save Duress for comboing out after it resolves. This means Ad Nauseam was already successfully tutored or is about to be. Turn 1 Duress is a minor nuisance most of the time, since if it nabs FoW I'll most likely have search, and viceversa. Multiple Duresses might be a problem, but then again what deck thinks they are not? Again, ANT's weakness is the amount of resources it requires to race us. The cases in which it gathers them successfully and manages to protect all of its bombs at the same time are a small subset.

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Originally Posted by herbig

I'm not aware of any real deck that runs Thopter Foundry and Tarmogoyf, but Counterbalance is your real problem. Grizzly Bear backed up by Counter/Top is more than enough.

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Agreed. That CB is this deck's #1 threat should be clear after 40 pages of discussion :)
Either way, I've seen a UWG CounterTop build with beatdown through Thopter + Sword and Goyf in my meta. It also ran Thirsts for extra discard to pump Goyf.

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Originally Posted by herbig

Sometimes it's better to go off when they've played three spells already, rather than wait longer, even if they don't have a threat on the table, especially if you have access to two Brain Freezes and the mana for them.

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Agreed. I do run 2 MD plus 1 in the side, but by far my favorite is the BF + Remand interaction.

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If you don't play FoI, play only one Brain Freeze main. It's a dead card during the combo and we don't want too much cards of this kind (we have 18 lands and 4 fow yet, we don't want much more)

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I'll give an additional Peer a shot then. I wouldn't say Freeze is completely dead. Its great with Brainfreeze if you run into too many land. But otherwise, I agree, its not really worth it to run more than 1.

What about a 4th Cunning Wish. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that. Why is that?

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Instant draw 3 for U without any drawback for combo decks? I don't like the idea of a playset of Ancestral Recalls in every storm pile. I really don't expect it to be instant and it probably won't make any CA (your opp draws 3 too, you discard 4... something in that direction I'd say).

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It will have a drawback, but the question is, is that drawback relevant in solidarity? It would be bad in Solidarity, for instance, if it also said, you cannot play anymore spells this turn or something like that.

I was thinking that it might make the opponent draw 3 or 4 or something. In that case, it would still be playable in Solidarity, in the board against aggro. Aggro doesn't really draw anything relevant from a draw 3/4 anyway so it would likely increase our speed. That is really what Solidarity needs right now IMO. A speed increase. The rest of the format got faster, but Solidarity didnt.

We could still speculate though on which drawbacks would suck. Even Draw 3 discard 3 wouldn't be that bad. Card quality is great, especially if you play a version with FoI.

I don´t think they will make any instant with CMC U that draws 3 cards... "Even Draw 3 discard 3 wouldn't be that bad", it would be awesome, and overpowered compared to careful study; dredge and reanimator would be happy :p

Probably it will be a sorcery, maybe: "As an additional cost, sacrifice 2 islands. Draw 3" As already said... I don´t expect too much from the cards announced by MaRo.

Of course they wouldn't print something strictly better than Careful Study. I was merely speculating as to what could be playable in Solidarity. Sacrifice 2 Islands does seem reasonable for 3 cards, but even then, decks like Merfolk that play vial would absolutely love that card. I don't think that is the drawback.

I think its worth discussing Frantic Search, in the case that it gets unbanned. Its exactly what Solidarity needs to become good again.

What would we cut for it if it got unbanned? I'm thinking Turnabout, as FS is 1 less to play, and functions as card quality + reset. Also, would we run 1 in the sideboard too (again, in place of the x1 Turnabout)?

Hii guys

i tested alot on mws and this is my list atm


4 reset
2 think twice
2 opt
4 fow
2 foi
3 turnabout
3 remand
2 cryptic command
4 impulse
4 cunning wish
3 meditate
4 brainstorm
1 brain freeze
4 high tide
2 flooded strand
2 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
12 island


Sideboard(not optimal atm)

1 turnabout
2 stroke of genius
1 meditate
1 brain freeze
4 spell pierce
1 wipe away
1 repeal
1 rebuild
1 echoing truth
1 slaugter pact
1 twincast


Ive been playing with 4 wishes for almost a few months and i like it alot

i always dislke 2 brain freeze main so i cut brain freeze for the 4th wish since wish is alot better then 2 brain freezesXD

I played again reanimator

and game 1 if they are fast like turn one iona then its game

but thats where the spell pierces come in i tested and its around 50-50 if you have a start fow plus pierce


and for the rest on mws i saw alot of goblins >.< and elves


Thats bout it i hope i get someone who i can test against who plays aggro control or something

How often do you use Cryptic Command? I dropped it from my list a while back. I've never played with Think Twice just because I think Peer through the Depths is much better. It finds you something relevant instead of 2 cards you may not want, and it makes Brainstorm even more dangerous, and it costs 3 less. I don't like FoI builds at all. I think they are suboptimal.

Pierce is great if you expect to face something like Reanimator. I picked myself up some Mindbreak Traps and board them in against aggro control with great success.

I play a modified version of Tacosnape's list:

Solidarity (Tacosnapes list):
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Peer Through Depths
1 Twincast
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
Open Slot

SB:
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Ravenous Trap

I'm going to test a 4th Cunning Wish and a 4th PTD in the slot of the 2nd Brainfreeze which someone suggest I cut. I'm also altering the board to fit in some Spell Pierces. I really want them against Sui and Reanimator and Mindbreak Trap only works against Combo and Control. Has anyone tried Disrupt against Reanimator? I have a playset of Disrupt too.

Also, I MIGHT be playing Solidarity this weekend at a tournament in LA. Not sure if I'll play this or SI yet. Gotta see what the meta looks like first.

EDIT:
I don't play that fetchlands config though. Its slightly different.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I'm going to test a 4th Cunning Wish and a 4th PTD in the slot of the 2nd Brainfreeze which someone suggest I cut. I'm also altering the board to fit in some Spell Pierces. I really want them against Sui and Reanimator and Mindbreak Trap only works against Combo and Control. Has anyone tried Disrupt against Reanimator? I have a playset of Disrupt too.

Also, I MIGHT be playing Solidarity this weekend at a tournament in LA. Not sure if I'll play this or SI yet. Gotta see what the meta looks like first.

EDIT:
I don't play that fetchlands config though. Its slightly different.

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I played Disrupt in the board for quite some time and even had Disrupt as 1-off in the main deck for some time. Its quite good as long as people don't expect it, but the moment they expect you to have it, they play around it, since people also learned to play around Daze. Sometimes it's quite good as emergency cantrip. It won me 1 or 2 games, but before i ditched the deck i replaced them with Mindbreak Traps in the board.

Btw don't waste sideboard slots on stuff like Spell Pierce because you fear Suicide. I never lost a single game against Discard. I had quite a nice game lately. The opponent made me discard three High Tide, destroyed three lands with Sinkhole/Vindicate and played midcombo Extirpate on my Reset. I still managed to win the game. And for Reanimator. Even 4 Spell Pierce in the board don't change that matchup. You either get lucky and he doesn't find a fast hand or you lose the game. I wouldn't waste sideboard spots on that. Probably Slaughter Pact could be an option here.

But as i already mentioned i dropped the deck, after my last tournament, where i lost 8/12 against my deck and not against my opponent.

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Btw don't waste sideboard slots on stuff like Spell Pierce because you fear Suicide. I never lost a single game against Discard. I had quite a nice game lately. The opponent made me discard three High Tide, destroyed three lands with Sinkhole/Vindicate and played midcombo Extirpate on my Reset. I still managed to win the game. And for Reanimator. Even 4 Spell Pierce in the board don't change that matchup. You either get lucky and he doesn't find a fast hand or you lose the game. I wouldn't waste sideboard spots on that. Probably Slaughter Pact could be an option here.

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What about Curfew against Reanimator? Too shitty against Iona? I saw UW Tempo running it. Thought maybe we could steal some tech.

Also, I really haven't played much against Sui so I'm not sure what the matchup is like. I just heard it was mediocre, though my games against them have been alright.


EDIT:
Also, I think a white splash looks pretty good right now. STP for reanimator, Chant for protection against combo and control. We are then vulnerable to wasteland. Thoughts on this? Teferi's response would be a great side in then for wasteland heavy matchups.