[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

Also, good players won't over-extend in the face of a Volcanic Island on the board. Firespout has become such universal hate for Zoo/Goblins/Merfolk that the metagame will shift to ways to combat it or play around it, likely in the near future.

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By speaking uniquely by the card itself, yes, Firespout might works as you said, but in regards of our entirely deck, it doesn't. Generelly our goal is to assemble CB+Top and land a Goyf or a Rhox War Monk. Those two creatures usually creates a dilemna for our opponent, as they need to overextend to pass our wall. That is why firespout is a key. We can land a creature, wait they overextend, then wipe their board and attack with your walls.

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I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?

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I always prefered from 14 to 16 cards at casting cost 2, but it changed since CB Top players introduced more cards at 3CC. Firstly it has been Trinket Mage (NQG /w, Brassman NLU), Trygon Predator (Nassif), Vedalken Shackles (Brassman NLU)... Even at some time we had Back To basics, Krosan Grip, Oblivion Ring, Dueling Grounds, Vendilion Clique, Rushing River. Now we added RWM and Firespout. When we realized we were dropping 2CC (less dazes, werebears, predict...) we introduced Spell snare in the deck as a 2 or 3 of's. And while it helps the early game (3 first turns), it can also supplement CB Top later if we don't find our desired 2cc on top.

In regards of E.E., my experience with it in Brassman's list is that I always found it too slow and didn't let me put my own creature to stop the hemorrhage and then clean the board, which is why I prefere the firespout over it. It leads me to keep the Trygon in, no matter what, but it fits nicely with the FS anyway.

Btw, my current list:

// Lands
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest (Depending on where I play, this might be the 4th Trop)

// Creatures (That's been my perfect creature number so far. Sower is good with the resurgence of Tombstalker, Mono Green Chalice (no removal but a shit load of good creatures), Aggro Loam, mirror match.. even Merfolk!
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Firespout
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare (I cut 1 RWM for it, but I could see going back to 4 RWM, 2 SS in a more Zoo oriented meta)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Spell Pierce (Helps Landstill and Progenitus MU, which are the worst)
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (Helps so much in the mirror + Landstill)
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt (Better than trap against 43 lands/Aggro Loam)
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (My meta has a lot of Progenitus decks (Natural Order Rock, CB top NO, Mono Green Chalice, Elves...) and a couple of Merfolks too)

I had WOG for a moment but the WW has been a problem for me so I'm trying Llawan since it's a 4cc spell for CB (so I can let it on top and if they manage to cast Natural order, I still have it to bounce it) and also because my plan against Folks is to needle vial and drop the Cephalid FTW.

P-M

Jace, the Mindsculptor
2uu
Planeswalker - Jace Mythic Rare
[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card at the bottom of his or her library.
[-0]: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library. That player then shuffles their hand into their library.
3

New Jace spoiled... looks like it might be good as a 2 of maindeck. Any opinions on this card?

He seems to be nuts in the Mirror and possibly vs Landstill-esque decks, but not sure it's even remotely relevant vs aggro or combo. It comes down rather late.

In the Mirror you can do sick stuff, like, Brainstorm every turn? Well I guess that's what they printed on it, doh.
Also, screw up their Counterbalance and peek before Krosan Gripping it? Neat.

Bounce seems to be relevant enough to gain some tempo, especially if you have the potential to unsummon their guy three times in a row.

may find a spot in ultimate walker

I'll test it both MD and Side. It certainly helps against Landstill and he's generaly good with CB but I'm just not sure yet if a 4cc that doesn't have that much an impact on the board will make the cut.

Test and time will tell us. Just don't underestimate it guys. His second ability is purely good.

P-M

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Originally Posted by o13g

I would like to note that all Supreme Blue (and Bant, for that measure) lists have an inherent problem that people need to deal with, rather than debate Firespout again: the number of 2-costs.

Now, I don't want to turn this thread into a math holywar so I'm not going to provide any calculations to back this up, but appealing to experience of successful CT players and builds I would say that you want to have at least 14 2-costs in your deck to be able to reliably find one when you set up SDT+CB.

Recent UGW/x builds apprearing here and there go to as low as 11 2-costs and that is risky.

I can see people arguing in support of 11-12 2-costs by saying "you have fetchlands and top to find them". While that is understandable it still doesn't make the number any more reliable and not being able to find a 2-drop immediately after setting up a CBT is a very bad spot to be in.

I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?

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I've been fine with twelve 2-costs, nine fetchlands, and four Sensei's Divining Tops. Then again, I just started playing CounterTop again.

Personally, I don't think it's worth it to cut stronger cards for weaker ones just to fill out your Counterbalance curve. More likely than not, you'll be playing the spells in your deck instead of leaving them on top for Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by o13g

I would like to hear from people with extensive experience with CB on that topic. What number of 2-costs do you prefer? How many times have you not found the 2-cost and that lead to a loss?

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Sometimes you can't find the 2cc spell , but in other hand you can find some 3cc that is much more precious to protect your CB.You must pay attention that most 2cc spells in SupremeBlue you really don't want to play in mid/late game cause they are Daze or CB duplicates so they can rest in top of your library.You also have 3 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm so you can set up your top if you know that the 2cc is very important in this MU.

I have a friend who recently picked up Bant CBTop. I'll post his list and then talk about it some.

2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Think that's pretty close.

We tested some mirror match or pretty close, as I played the Japanese Bant list (10 creature, Firespout, CBTop). We came to the conclusion that while QP is pretty awesome with all of the exalted and mean stuff in the deck, not being able to stop a resolved CB easily was pretty much game over since the only thing he can play after that is RWM. My Trygon Predator was a lot easier to resolve and then forced him to replay Top every turn. We ended up making the change:
-1 QP
+1 Trygon Predator
Which didn't hurt his exalted stuff too much, but gave him a different answer, and another Firespout survivor if I just nuke the ground. It's also a great Jitte carrier.

Noble Hierarch looks pretty nuts though. He can either accelerate you, color fix, give your guys exalted or help you keep mana if you Daze. Depending on what the field looks like at our next tournament, I might drop Firespout for him. I'm going to have to test though. Basically, drop 2 Volcanics, 3 Spout for 4 NH and either a Jitte or another Ponder. I kinda like the random Jitte. It sucks when you don't have a threat though, which is why I might take Ponder over it.

I was trying to convince him to drop at least 1 Jitte for a Shackles. I don't think that would push his 3cc slot too high. We also talked about potentially throwing in NOPro, but he likes the main as is but the side has some room.

Speaking of the side, this is what we ended up with:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Trygon Predator
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Open Slot

The opens are heavily dependent on who we see there for the next event on the 2nd. Someone at the last tournament was playing Imperial Painter. Aggro is also pretty popular here as a more budget option. Combo is usually pretty rare. Stax/Stompy is fairly rare too.

Some cards we've discussed as the Open options include:
Gaea's Blessing (for the Painter deck)
Pithing Needle (just one extra)
Path to Exile (to help with aggro some)
Shackles (at least one...wish he played it main)
Teeg (awesome against NOPro, Stax, ANT, Belcher)
Meddling Mage (pitches to FoW, stops ETW in Belcher)
NOPro (Either 2:1 NO:Pro or another NO in place of a Relic)
BEB (Goblins, Imperial Painter, burn)

We're going to do more testing against decks we expect at this event like Zoo, various combo, burn, Merfolk and Stax. I know that Firespout is house against aggro, but with NH and QP, I don't think that'll work out. I think NOPro may be the best option if aggro proves to be tough...and we may even have to squeeze it into the main deck and have an Archangel in the side. Empyrial Archangel is pretty house against burn and decks with few beats.

I think 18 lands is a bit low, i like 19 more, specially without ponders MD. I guess it's personal prefence.

Also, 3 CB and 3Top wouldn't be better 4 of each? The soft lock IS the reason to play this deck. I would do:
-1 Daze
-1 RWM
+1 CB
+1 Top

With so many exalted, wouldn't Dueling Grounds be good in that deck? I'ts good vs Merfolks, goblins, zoo and dredge. You can also protect planeswalkers with it.

Before going to add Jace, the mindsculptor. You should first playtest Elspeth, Knight Errant.
That card is thé nuts in this deck. You're no longer afraid of creature removal, you have a faster clock with him and a creature on the board (or just with his soldier tolken) and its ultimate (if the game has not ended yet) is awesome.

I'm not sure whether Jace, the mindsculptor is such a great idea. I feel Countertop has a lot of trouble with tribal, Rock (its hard trust me), Ichorid. Landstill and other control decks speak for themselves.
Since Jace, the mindsculptor is probably thé best answer against mid-ranged decks it will not help you enough against your bad matchups.
However, we should just playtest the card to be sure.

Has BANT Counter/Top tried replacing Noble Hierarch with Mother of Runes? While Noble Hierarch accelerates Rhox War Monk, unless you're playing Natural Order as well the acceleration tends to go to waste. Mother of Runes doesn't accelerate, but she does slowdown the opponent by blocking, counter their removal and force your threats thru' their creatures. Also, she's the only 1 drop that survives Firespout, which could make her really synergistic with 4c Bant.

That aside, with Warmonk/Jitte in BANT, has any one tried 2x Sylvan Library for the potential card advantage?

Have you guys tried a list with knight of the reliquary?

I have been wanting to build a list with it... But i dunno what else I would switch up for it to be worthwhile.

@bokepa - Not my list. I'll talk it over with him. I think he could even drop VC for that extra CB and Top. I haven't thought about Dueling Grounds. It's on color and within the curve. It protects from swarmish aggro. We'll consider testing it, thanks.

While the new Jace is pretty nuts looking, I'm unsure that he'll end up earning a spot. I'd probably use his Brainstorm a lot more than the Scry/Fateseal (other than the first turn you play him), so in a way he's a one sided card advantage generator. Elspeth helps lock down the ground, can Jump and Pump your guys, and then make your stuff unkillable. But she still doesn't see a ton of play.

MoR is probably not as good as Noble Hierarch just because of how flexible he can be. Early on he's acceleration. If the ground gets locked up and you have a RWM, he can be sent in to gain lots of life and potentially trade with multiple creatures. Or you can send a bigger Goyf into a smaller defending one. I guess if you were losing, MoR is a better blocker, but RWM attacking for big amounts can help even out the difference. I'd still lean towards NH.

This past weekend I played the following list to a 1st/2nd place split finish at a 32 player tournament at Jupiter Games in Vestal, NY.

1x Progenitus
3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Wall of Blossoms

4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
4x Force of Will
3x Natural Order
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Krosan Grip
2x Path to Exile
3x Ravenous Trap

As you can see it plays 3 Firespouts main with the full complement to handle aggro decks. It plays NO->Progenitus which won me 90%+ of the games.

The one main addition you will see is the inclusion of 3 Wall of Blossoms. They help boost the 2cc card count for Counterbalance, as well as cantripping and slowing down aggro decks. It also represents a weak creature that comes down early and can sacrificed to NO.

The sideboard was mostly aimed at the tier 1 decks, although there were a lot of Dredge and the new Iona Reanimator decks present and I wish I had more graveyard removal; although I won so I can't complain too much.

I had used to play Ponder in the Wall of Blossom slots but found that I was running too many 1 mana cards and could never find any 2cc's for Counterbalance. And I was also using too much mana in the early game for library manipulation and it was hurting against the aggro decks.

Any comments or suggestions?

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Originally Posted by psu42

This past weekend I played the following list to a 1st/2nd place split finish at a 32 player tournament at Jupiter Games in Vestal, NY.

1x Progenitus
3x Rhox War Monk
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Wall of Blossoms

4x Brainstorm
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
3x Firespout
4x Force of Will
3x Natural Order
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
3x Krosan Grip
2x Path to Exile
3x Ravenous Trap

As you can see it plays 3 Firespouts main with the full complement to handle aggro decks. It plays NO->Progenitus which won me 90%+ of the games.

The one main addition you will see is the inclusion of 3 Wall of Blossoms. They help boost the 2cc card count for Counterbalance, as well as cantripping and slowing down aggro decks. It also represents a weak creature that comes down early and can sacrificed to NO.

The sideboard was mostly aimed at the tier 1 decks, although there were a lot of Dredge and the new Iona Reanimator decks present and I wish I had more graveyard removal; although I won so I can't complain too much.

I had used to play Ponder in the Wall of Blossom slots but found that I was running too many 1 mana cards and could never find any 2cc's for Counterbalance. And I was also using too much mana in the early game for library manipulation and it was hurting against the aggro decks.

Any comments or suggestions?

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what did you beat?

Rd1: ANT 2-0
Rd2: Aggro Loam 2-1
Rd3: Dredge 2-1
Rd4: ID
Rd5: ID
T8: Zoo/Goyf Slight 2-1
T4: Iona Reanimator 2-0

How did you manage to make T8 with 2 ID's?

Hi, has anyone some thoughts for the UGR Countertop (kinda Probasco style)? As i miss the cards for the white Splash (Monk,Swords,Tundra..) i am only able to run UGR since i normally play Dreadstill and just wanted to give the normal Countertop a Chance.

Here is what i thought of:

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Morphling (i love the card, 1 slot maybe wasted but kept)
2 Trygon Predator

4 Senseis Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 volcanic island
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
1 academy ruins
3 island

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
3 Submerge
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

So by playing without white i need at least 1 card beside tarmogoyf that could win me a game and as miss the white/black splash i decided to take a morphling as it was good some time ago when i used it on the Nassif's baseruption list.

So i think the rest of the maindeck is pretty basic, i thought of cutting a top+some for trinket mage, but i feld like having one more copy of the other spells in the list was better since i only would search explosives or the top i've cutted for it.

The Sideboard looks clunky but i figured out that most games i played with countertop/dreadstill i just wanted to have some more against agrro or control/mirror so i dropped the most "random" spells like ancient grudge,hydroblast etc.

So i will have only the spells aviable i had good experiences with.
-> The crypts are not splitted with Relics as i like using them with academy ruins against loam.
-> Submerge is placed over Sowers as i mostly can use them much more against Zoo,Survival,Countertop (normally includes green), ********(sometimes), Elves etc..
-> 3 Grips to have garanted removal beside predator and EE.

With red being a more aggressive color, I wonder if 7 creatures (2 of them rather utility than power) is the way to go.

My idea of evolving Probasco.dec was rather to play Firespout main (like the Japanese Supreme-Blue) but using creatures that don't die to it themselves.

Thus I added the Swans-combo, resulting in the following list:

//Lands
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Volcanic Island

//Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll

// Engine
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

//Control
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
2 [SHM] Firespout

//Card-Quality
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder

//Combo-Stuff
2 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast

A similar list performed successfully @ a small tournament, as well (2/37). I prefer having 20 lands though, as well as a sufficient amount of basics. Because those decks against which Firespout rules tend to love Wasteland (Goblins, Merfolk etc.).

I found Lightning bolt as more usefull than firespout on the maindeck, i'd like to play both maybe 2 spout 3 bolt since theres a lot of aggro around these days. I'd like to have some creatures beside goofy that don't need to be protected at all, thats the fact why i am left with the morphling as it is just the option after goofies being stopped.

I also would love to see Masticore or Flametongue Kavu on a tournament role :D