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In the somewhat limited experience I've had with the whir deck, chalice is a hell of a card, but it's obviously not a brainstorm deck and it felt slower than most other painter decks to me. I would probably also play it with another color. I tried it with black for tezz and thopter/sword combo. Combo was really good but tezz wasn't great. I would probably play white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
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Yeah, that makes sense given the card choices Noctalor. I'm not sure about your statement that miracles is overrated and lacks a decent finisher. Both Monastery Mentor and Entreat the Angels are serious finishers that don't require much deck space, and Jace wins games in itself. The deck also did extremely well at GP Seattle with 8 copies in the Top 64. We don't know the conversion rate, but I imagine the deck had a good conversion rate as it doesn't have that many pilots. Anyway, perhaps that's a discussion for another thread haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1In the somewhat limited experience I've had with the whir deck, chalice is a hell of a card, but it's obviously not a brainstorm deck and it felt slower than most other painter decks to me. I would probably also play it with another color. I tried it with black for tezz and thopter/sword combo. Combo was really good but tezz wasn't great. I would probably play white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
In any case, I'd highly recommend trying the mono blue whir + chalice list. Getting to play chalice gives you a lot of game against a number of decks in the format, and in contrast to other chalice decks you have the consistency of tutors (in Whir, Transmute, Tezzeret and Trinket Mage) and pseudo-cantrips in Thirst for Knowledge. You also have strong alternate game-plans in game 1, in Jace combined with Ensnaring Bridge and Tezzeret ultimate. Plus, as a blue deck, you still get to play Force of Will.
Regarding your comment that tezz wasn't great, it's worth noting that he plays a very specific role within the deck by acting as a fifth tutor for either combo piece that can get both pieces of the combo over two turns, with the added upside of providing a way to win games that you wouldn't otherwise be able to. I was initially on four Whir, but the triple blue cost can be prohibitive.
Whir is the card that really makes the deck tick, and its cost is why I would caution against including another colour unless you have very specific reasons to. As it is, I haven't found those reasons to be compelling enough. What makes you want to play white?
@Noctalor, feel free to ask any questions you might have about the chalice build if that is the list you were talking about. I'd love to hear how you get on with it.
I played the deck I posted on page 39 (#775) to a 10th place finish at a reasonably-sized local tournament yesterday. I played a Lodestone Golem in place of the Llawan in the sideboard, although I think the change was fairly immaterial. I'm still trying to figure out the optimal board.
I beat Death and Taxes, Lands, Grixis Vial-Smasher (basically UR Delver with Vial-Smasher) and Moon Stompy, losing an earlier round to Turbo Depths (which is usually a good matchup) and my win-and-in to Czech Pile.
When I said I thought tezz wasn't great I was actually referring to tezz, agent. I would play white to still be able to play the thopter combo along with some really strong white SB cards like canonist. Another option would be to play this as a true prison deck and play 4 blood moon which is something I think I will test some.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper
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I'm really curious about the play style. I think i will test it. Did you play it in other tornament? mtgo? paper?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
When you say you will test W list, what do you mean? Patriot version?
I saw some recent video on YouTube "Legacy 1k Ur painter" is it you?
Yeah, that actually makes sense now that I look at your previous post. Sorry! Yeah, when I played a UB version of the Chalice deck I found Tezzeret, AoB to be fairly underwhelming. You don't have space for as many artifacts as Tezzerator and the +1 can be awkward with Chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
I've thought about a white version. I don't think the deck actually needs a card like Canonist as the storm matchup is already good, but it could definitely benefit from having access to removal, particularly a boardwipe. Again, when I played UB I didn't particularly like having ThopterSword in the deck, it just felt like I was running more cards that don't do anything on their own. Then again, it could be useful in the fair/grindy matchups—the question is whether it's useful enough to deserve a spot when adding a colour is a serious cost in a deck trying to run a UUU card as well as sol-lands.
I think if I were to splash, I would probably splash red because pyroclasm single-handedly fixes a number of issues the deck has. The real issue is the mana-base.
I have experimented with a version with Blood Moon as well as Chalice, but again it's extremely awkward with Whir and doesn't exactly help your manabase. I'm still tinkering, though.
No, not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanhur
The URw list looks like
// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
1 Grindstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
// 7 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Painter's Servant
1 Vendilion Clique
// 4 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Moat
1 Porphyry Nodes
// 17 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Pyroblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
// 22 Land
1 Academy Ruins
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
// 2 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dack Fayden
// 5 Sorcery
4 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
// 4 Enchantment
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Banishing Light
// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Holy Light
// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
I have tested the deck quite a bit on cockatrice and some paper magic, sadly no MTGO for me.
Still, the deck felt quite solid, is have much more tests done with the straight UR, but the URw on paper should solve most problems, losing in consistency tho.
Really strange list! I am really curious to see this list on a tornament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
I think i will try your UR version on MTGO. Do you make any change?
The maybelist is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanhur
- Possibly play some combination of [card]Harvest Pyre[/card] and [card]Roast[/card]
- Maybe cut a slow card such as Dack Fayden for Azcanta number 2, which has proven to be hella busted
- If we truly want to improve Elves playing on the board some more cheap interaction such as [card]Pyroclasm[/card], staticaster was not fast enough to be impacful, and bridge is likely not going to solve anything against Elves, also, probably a copy of [card]Grim Lavamancer[/card] would be reasonable
Thing is, we cant expect the deck to perform properly against the entire field if we go for UR, we dont have the tools to be in good shape against the entire format at once, so chosing the expected metagame is crucial, mostly because if we want to improve our chances vs big minions we are likely to have an harder time against swarm decks such as elves.
In my opinion is much easier to fix our MU against small creatures and give up on having an easy way to deal with tarmo/gurmag/eldrazi, but its also true that we are more likely to face huge threats rather than elves (taxes is already pretty decent with the old configuration, so not a big deal), we should probably play at least 2 answers to big minions, but its pretty hard to make room to 4 bolts, abrade (which is bonkers, really) and 2 more spot remuvals.
This is expecially true if we fear delver, rather than pile, against pile we often have the time to setup a painter pyro, or to just go off, but against a turn 2 tarmo having to rely on painter pyro to stay alive is surely not a good idea.
At the moment our best shot at beating big creatures.deck is to contain them and lock the game with moon, so we could also consider some bounce effect and run 3/4 moons, no test backing this, but it may work, also doubling as an answer to marit lage.
I was thinking about marit lage match up maybe fire/ice?
For run 3/4 blood moon, we can only play it with UR version? with MD EE it's an option too maybe?
W list is fine with ETutoring Moon, also Moat is godsend in any big creature MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanhur
Marit lage decks are not a huge deal, UR list runs bridges, turbo depths is harder to deal with because it can go off before our relevant plays are online, against lands its quite possible to stop marit lage by just using pyroblasts.
In general Lands is a quite easy MU, we have a ton of moons, Bridges, Surgical + Snapcasters and we can easily win w/o combat.
Fire//Ice is quite good in the deck (madness with Dack ulti), but it wont solve a turn 2 tarmo or a turn 3 gurmag by itself.
Do you think we can cut 2 card in main for 2 mentors ?
I can buy the 1 grindstone is too few and JTMS argument but I actually think that recruiter and trinket mage are fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
This seems like a very bad take. If you want to play brainstorm and ponder in your deck why aren't you just playing 1 of the 2 best decks in the format? Or if you are playing your chalice version why not just play something like Dragon Stompy or Eldrazi? The reason to play painter is that the combo is compact and both pieces alone aren't worthless whereas with something like S&T you can draw the griselbrand, emrakul or omniscience and basically just have dead cards in your hand without the other combo enabler. You also get the benefit of being preboarded against any blue deck in the format and with painters out you basically get 1 mana counterspells/vindicates.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasper
The problem that I continually have with the "all in" blue versions of the deck is that they absolutely get destroyed by Delver since you have so many cards that actively don't do anything, and your manabase is so vulnerable to hate.
I think you've misunderstood the point I'm making. What you're doing is exactly what I suggest we should do in terms of evaluating how and why it is worth playing Painter decks. All of the things you say are good and valid reasons to play Painter rather than other decks in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I just think that it's worth remembering what has historically set Painter decks apart, whether it is access to a powerful colourless combo, the ability to play Blood Moon and so on. For example, Shortcake, back in the day, was the best deck at doing what it specifically set out to do, which was (in brief) to be a combo deck with a powerful toolbox and prison elements.
My concern with these more controlling lists is that what you gain by playing the combo may not outweigh what you could gain by doing other things that have the same end result. If you're playing PainterStone as a win condition but not making use of some its defining characteristics of, for example, being artifact based and therefore powerful with sol lands, or being tutorable, or whatever it is, that (key word) may not be as good as simply playing a control deck like Miracles. Note that I'm not saying that I don't think a controlling build could be good, just trying to highlight some things to think about when building it one way or another.
// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
2 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
// 10 Creature
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage
// 3 Enchantment
3 Blood Moon
// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
// 20 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Great Furnace
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
// 3 Sorcery
3 Transmute Artifact
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Aether Spellbomb
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Pyrite Spellbomb
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Walking Ballista
// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Abrade
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
// 1 Land
SB: 1 Mountain
// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
That's a list...Quote:
Originally Posted by paradaxarada
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I played this list at my local event with the following changes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
MD:
-porphyry nodes
-Dack Fayden (something you mentioned above)
-Mountian
+Arid Mesa
+Azcanta
+Snapcaster
SB:
-Cursed Totem
-Holy Light
-Banishing Light
+2 Grim Lavamancer
+Humility (it does work with painter, I checked)
The deck functioned amazingly and I went 3-0 (small crowd) beating burn, storm, and RB reanimator. The enlightened tutor package felt really good and, compared to control decks I've played in the past, I was super happy with how the combo was unobtrusive (and sometimes helpful) while stabilizing and then won basically immediately when I wanted to. So much better than old miracles, it felt almost like playing Lands (tho with very different cards). Will keep on testing this version.
You checked with the post-Ixalan rules update? I tried to find info confirming that and couldn't find it, but I don't know where exactly I should look.Quote:
Originally Posted by structuremole
Glad you enjoyed it, also, I like the changes you made, they look fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by structuremole
Cursed totem and holy light are mainly there for elves, lavamancer could do the trick, maybe even better.
Lastly, had no clue humility + painter was not a nonbo, if yes, damn that's good for us.
If the rules did not change since 2-3 years, yes it's work.
Painter is a 1/1 but all permanent is blue or other colors you want.
I think the rules changed with Ixalan's release, like I indicated in my previous post. Edit: the much discussed example is how with Blood Moon in play a Dark Depths will enter with zero counters. I have no idea how Painter is affected, so just wanted to check if the first comment on Humility was considering this rules update.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanhur