So, would you side in all 15 cards if you were facing a hate-heavy type of deck like the RIP/Helm deck?
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So, would you side in all 15 cards if you were facing a hate-heavy type of deck like the RIP/Helm deck?
Well, you wouldn't bring in Sickening Shoals. In that instance, you could tinker with bringing out some other options - or trim down on the cards you would be bringing in.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Why do you play Contagions over Shoals?
Imagine your opponent has Noble Hierarch and Scavenging Ooze in his starting hand. It doesn't matter what you do with your Contagion here - you lose anyway if your opponent is good enough to play around. But with Shoal you would win.
You play both. Contagion gives you value and hits more targets - especially diminishing the threat of Tribal and fast aggro/combo variants like Elves. Contagion knocks out most relevant threats early in the game and its diversification factor makes it a more appealing choice against most other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
Sickening Shoal is good, and it's obviously why I run it. However, Sickening Shoal's primary utility is to hit relatively larger creatures. Manaless has the ability to combo out faster than when those creatures become relevant, which is why Contagion shines more for its ability to either take out two one-toughness creatures or one two-toughness creature itself. If you go back and read all of my tournament reports, you'll see how potent Contagion can really be. Not simply in that it can kill opposing creatures, but my own as well - giving me tokens from Bridge from Below in order to combo out with Dread Return.
I've tested both extensively, and that's what I've enjoyed success with.
EDIT: Also, in the circumstance you mention: when your opponent plays first, they drop a Hierarch and pass. You go to your turn and discard. During their upkeep, you nail their Hierarch. This will stunt their ability to either play out a Knight of the Reliquary, inhibit their ability to activate an Ooze if it's cast or cripple a hand predicated on the utility of that Hierarch's colored mana production. You can run with that line of play and just win the following turn, or, in the event an opponent plays Ooze and activates it with no mana open you just kill it with Contagion in response. You'll lose a dredger, but your opponent will lose their most valuable asset.
hey hey, I'm from germany and my english is sadly not that good ^^
i'm not a that freaky like my male friends but i have a lot of fun and ''learn'' magic by this deck. :) in german forums there's nearly nothing to manaless dredge... i played this deck (my friends played with lands and this artifact, don't know the way right now :P
we played a tournament in berlin and I'm nooooot designed this idea, i have juuust so many fun of it and will going to some events not only at this dummy girly :D soo far...
eeerm so i lost only 1 game in this shop and won 5, my list seems really strange but ''Lotus Bloom'' in my sideboard was wooow in 2 games! it helps sooo well against hate. my maindeck is near to yours hollywolly,... in the sideboard I tried some new ways and it was pretty awesome for me. :)
I'm glad it's working out for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessinchen
oki you're not sooo excited ^^
I think you misplaced your quotation marks in that sentence :confused:. Also, Hollywood is a gentleman, he would not dare to criticize you at this moment. If you want actual input, tell us what Lotus Bloom has been doing for you postboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessinchen
Best thing I've read all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessinchen
mhh first of all... menace = blödian, german like, but in a lovely meaning sin. :P
tomorrow i could post you what i'm doing in this tournament, but i am not a pro like you... soo be serious to me or let it be!
With 4 dryad arbor and noxious revival have someone thought or tryed Ghoultree? For one green to pay? Its really not a great idea but a full graveyard deck with creatures and a 10/10 body.
I'm testing a strange manaless version maybe a manaless artifact that uses baubles to accelerate with Nether Shadow+Sword of the Meek+ Salvage Titan. Nether/Menmite return swords from grave, and Salvage Titan recycles dead baubles or other artifacts from grave than Titan sacrifice swords from the field to no cost cast. Testing with flayers and 0 mana cost artifact creatures that even serves as walls.
I actually thought it was funny to call someone Holly-Wolly, but, If we're just going to call people idiots in other languages, I would suggest French, Or Italian. The German Language is so harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessinchen
Also, Hollywolly.
If you kill Hierarch with Contagion, turn3 they untap with Ooze and win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
If you don't kill Hierarch, they cast Ooze and pass. They have mana to activate it but they obviously won't do that. Turn3 they untap with Ooze and win.
With Contagion, the only way to win here is to kill them turn2 (well, it sometimes happens but probably not very often). With Shoal, you just get rid of Ooze or KotR no matter how big they are.
Contagion is awesome against elves and Shoal is awesome against Blazing Archon, but I don't think such things should determine your deckchoices in a normal metagame. What really matters is the ability to deal with popular stuff like Shaman, Ooze and KotR. I mean Canadian Thresh runs Lightning Bolts over Lava Darts, right?
PS: You should probably consider Surgicals as a sb option. They are ok against Tutors and Miracles too.
Oh menace, no no sorry. You misunderstood ''Blödian'', it doesn't mean idiot. It's more of all a funny lovely word like Hollywolly. I really don't want to offend you in any way. Sorry for off topic, too. :)
They aren't untapping turn three and winning with a Scavenging Ooze. First off, they have to actually get to turn three with a hand that hasn't been decimated by Cabal Therapy. Secondly, if an Ooze is simply cast turn two with no acceleration, it's going to die - simple. Lastly, in the event an opponent casts a turn one Hierarch and you discard, you should really consider killing it during their upkeep so that a.) they cannot accelerate into a Knight of the Reliquary, b.) they won't have mana to cast and activate an Ooze, c.) you nullify Green Sun's Zenith for anything relevant and d.) you can flat out cripple their mana as some hands are largely predicated on having that accelerate to power out something relevant turn two.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
The funny thing is is that this is only relevant against Maverick, which is seeing less and less play right now. And even so, if you play tight and sideboard correctly, you should be fine. Remember, Ooze is generally only a one or two of in most decks, and I'm not really concerned about it. Three Contagions and a Shoal are more than acceptable in that match up, and it is really the only match up where you would benefit from an additional Shoal or two.
Not really that big of a deal from a design standpoint. Contagion is more diverse and lush in its utility, which is why I've tested it and run it.
That's true, and I agree. However, we're playing a combo deck. The last thing we care about is a turn three Knight into a turn four activation, barring a turn one Hierarch. Which, in my case, I always take out on sight to set them back a turn (potentially two) and limit their resources.Quote:
With Contagion, the only way to win here is to kill them turn2 (well, it sometimes happens but probably not very often). With Shoal, you just get rid of Ooze or KotR no matter how big they are.
Contagion's diversification factor makes it a more attractive option than Shoal. Fast combo-ish aggro like Elves and Goblins can be troublesome with slower hands, which is when a two for two is a better trade off than a two for one. I have played against every single viable archetype with a variety of configurations, and while Shoal is awesome and I do play it, I still like Contagion's ability to spread its utility over multiple creatures. This is why there are two more in the sideboard - specifically for Maverick and to a lesser degree Reanimator.Quote:
Contagion is awesome against elves and Shoal is awesome against Blazing Archon, but I don't think such things should determine your deckchoices in a normal metagame. What really matters is the ability to deal with popular stuff like Shaman, Ooze and KotR. I mean Canadian Thresh runs Lightning Bolts over Lava Darts, right?
Flayer also trumps Archon, which is why it's in there. It's honestly the least of my worries.
Surgical Extraction is more specific in its utility and not as diverse as something like Noxious Revival, which again has more utility in its general use. Revival is able to do multiple things and for all intents and purposes it does pretty much what Extraction does by protecting and or manipulating either player's graveyard or top of their library.Quote:
PS: You should probably consider Surgicals as a sb option. They are ok against Tutors and Miracles too.
Hopefully, you're getting the theme here that you really want to have a variety of options that serve a large degree of utility as opposed to more direct and specific inclusions geared towards a more direct purpose. Revival and Contagion are better all around as opposed to Shoal and Extraction as direct and specific support. Although, that doesn't disqualify them from being viable options. I certainly love Shoal and it's why I run at least three at the moment.
Well, here Maverick is still the most popular nonblue deck while Elves, for example, almost don't exist at all (goblins are still quite popular though). But I got your point, thank you for your help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Yeah, I like Revival too. While Revival is worse than Extraction against Tutor and Miracles (especially if they have a Top), its ability to recover Silence or Moeba seems to be really great. I just meant that if for some reason one needs any gravehate (like if he expects mirrors), then probably Extraction should be the first card to consider because it's also pretty good against Tutor packages, as well as against combodecks and any Miracle-Snapcaster-Brainstorm stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Those choices (like Contagion and Sickening Shoal) are kind of meta dependent, so it really depends on what you're facing on a regular basis. Still, they serve an important purpose so keeping them in is really important.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
I just think the quantity of each is what can get changed around more commonly.
Look for an article on Manaless Dredge on Jupiter Games' website next week, written by yours truly.
Will do Hollywood,
Can u help me?
Affinity.:mad:
So I board in my Claims/Shoals/Contagion's etc. I'm getting raced (and OWNED) by Affinity more often than not, unless I get a really good draw.
I've been testing against quite a few decks, and I've been having a hard time working out how to beat it when their hands can be so explosive, so far I'm losing more than I win, and whereas the wins i get are crazy turn2 broadside's, the losses are often limp and pathetic. G'Probe may help me race, but I'm testing the deck without it at current.
Most of the time when I cast a DR for Grisel, my life is too low to pay 7. I've been using my claims on Cranial Plating, but a lot of Affinity decks are running Spell Pierce currently.
Considering they can empty their hand by turn 2 or 3 quite consistently, how do you prefer to play out against Affinity?
I have become a little interested in this deck for some time now, but have stumbled upon something that worries me.
What do you do when someone slams down Gaddock Teeg? Roll over and die - since Contagion (CMC > 3) and Sickening Shoals (X in CC) gets shut down and he can't be removed.
Enchantments and Artifact are being handled by Nature's Claim and Reverent Silence, which I dig, but Teeg are a pain in the ...!
/PollePotDK