[Primer/Deck] Pox

I was wrong about the utility of Uba Mask in the current environment.

Below is my updated that is no longer geared around Uba Mask that I would love to get people's thoughts on...

//Discard
3 Raven's Crime
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Necrogen Mists

//Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales

//Win Conditions
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction

//Utility
4 Mind Stone
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Bottled Cloister

//Lands
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp

Depending on your play style/meta, Necrogen Mists can be replaced with either Bottomless Pit or Oppression and function perfectly well. Likewise in a fast meta not infested by Dazes, Dark Ritual is a suitable replacement for Mind Stone. Replacing Bottled Cloister with Null Brooch is another viable option.

A lot of thought went into making sure the above list has a very smooth mana curve that also draws out counterspells with the lower cc spells allowing the more potent spells at the higher end of the curve to resolve.

1st turn plays (11)
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Raven's Crime

2nd turn plays (11)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mind Stone
3 retracing Raven's Crime/cycling Barren Moor

3cc plays (12)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Liliana of the Veil

I would really appreciate hearing people's thoughts on this list and any suggestions they have to offer. I would also love input on if Waste Not will warrant inclusion once it sees print and if so, how best to go about including it.

This approach seems really powerful against most decks in the format.

Changes recently made to the deck...

-2 Unburden
-2 Bottomless Pit
-2 Pox
-1 Shrieking Affliction
+3 Raven's Crime
+4 Bottled Cloister

-4 Smallpox
+4 Dark Ritual

-2 Bottled Cloister
+2 Null Brooch

-4 Dark Ritual
-2 Null Brooch
+4 Mind Stone
+2 Toxic Deluge

-3 Barren Moor
-1 Ancient Tomb
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Swamp
+2 Bojuka Bog

Yes, I'm aware the deck is largely geared towards decimating decks that rely on creature based win conditions, but that's 95 percent of the current environment. Between the discard and sideboard, storm based decks may be beatable as well.

Somehow I would personally love to see loam with that Raven's crime but that is just me.

Also you have no actual plan against creatures if they get rid of your bridge (pridemage/sb card)

Have you think about crucible/Mox Diamond? Not sure how much value you got from that mind stone but do you ever find a lack of black mana?

Well looks like we are completely different pox player since I'm relying more mana denial and trying to get constant 1-for-x+1 ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekron

Somehow I would personally love to see loam with that Raven's crime but that is just me.

Also you have no actual plan against creatures if they get rid of your bridge (pridemage/sb card)

Have you think about crucible/Mox Diamond? Not sure how much value you got from that mind stone but do you ever find a lack of black mana?

Well looks like we are completely different pox player since I'm relying more mana denial and trying to get constant 1-for-x+1

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IMO, Loam/Crucible/Mox don't add anything valuable to the deck. They have a role in lists that also care about land destruction and play Wasteland/Sinkhole, but in a deck like this that is singularly focused on discard, they dont offer much.

I feel that you may have glossed over Noetic Scales and Liliana. Both cards are actually stronger than Bridge and are solid against creatures even if Ensnaring Bridge gets blown up. The discard also serves to empty your opponents hands of some of their creatures slowing them down.

Only 8 cards in the deck needs BB to cast, and none need BBB. This is why I feel 16 black mana sources is sufficient.

I really like Mind Stone. It accelerates you to the midgame one turn earlier then sacrifices itself for a card once you have mana to spare. Its fantastic utility for this reason but I am open to suggestions for alternate accelerants that synergize with the rest of the deck or offer similar utility.

I am debating whether to keep Barren Moor or replace it with Swamps. I play it because the only times its bad is if you top deck it turns 2 or 3 but otherwise, its awesome. If its in your opener, its a perfectly good first turn play. And midgame and beyond which is where this deck spends the bulk of most matches, its phenomenal.

Looks like you got my points covered pretty well:-)

Yeah, I totally miss that noetic scale but lilly alone is pretty weak against swarming creatures but since you got them covered via scales you got creatures checked.

Since you have nice discard symbiosis when waste not is released on some day, it should take mind stone place but in mean time it looks at least decent.

Now I'm just wondering that can you manage with all threats which are all ready on board when you got your discard lock established? Or do you just agree to lose turn 1-3 compo decks because lack of early game disruption?

Ofc, if there are no stupid compo decks in your meta then you got nice meta tuned pox, but still I would love to see rituals in this 3cmc deck ;-)

I was going back and forth on Dark Ritual vs. Mind Stone.

Currently, aggro control seem to be on the rise thanks in part to Nemesis. The threats those decks play are fairly large and often stopped dead in their tracks by either a single Bridge or Scales. And if you throw all your discard at these decks until they are depleted of counterspells, resolving Bridge/Scales isn't hard. However, if you try to explode out of the gates with a Ritual and overextend too fast, you're much more likely to get key spells countered or Dazed.

In a faster/less blue meta (one with more combo or more fast aggro), I would probably go...

-1 Bottled Cloister
-1 Raven's Crime
-2 Mind Stone
+4 Dark Ritual

Given how many decks are playing Daze, maindeck Dark Ritual doesn't seem worthwhile at the moment. But I would certainly include Rituals and Chalices in the board to bring in vs. very fast decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Below is my updated that is no longer geared around Uba Mask that I would love to get people's thoughts on...

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Since you are not running Smallpox or Innocent Blood you do seem weak against creatures like Deathright Shaman/Grim Lavamancer who with only a single power will be difficult to bounce quickly; also 4 Bottled Cloisers seems quite a lot. Perhaps you should add a couple of Black Sun's Zenith to help clear the board? You might also want a single Bojuka Bog or a Cabal Pit in with your lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Randomly being made to discard your noetic scales or liliana to a bottomless pit instead of a card you have no use for screws you over.

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I guess it is a play style choice; I prefer random discard as it can break up the opponents combo rather than letting them control there hand. If I have them in my hand Pit always comes down after Lilly and Bridge; I am not using Scales though so I can see how waiting for a fourth land could be an issue with your deck.

My tentative sideboard thus far includes
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oppression
4 Toxic Deluge
3 Dark Ritual

I could see maindecking a couple of Toxic Deluge (superior to Black Sun's Zenith) if elves was a frequent matchup but imo, it's not needed to deal with Lavamancer/Shaman.

Even if you dont have a Liliana to make your opponent sac them, it only takes you a turn or two longer to bounce those guys to your opponent's hand and after that, thanks to summoning sickness, you'll never need to worry about them.

Youre indeed correct that I could get away with cutting a Bottled Cloister or two for more early game cards. Many options to choose from but I remain unsure if any of them are truly worth maindecking. Smallpox is the card Im most tempted by.

If you don't play either Pox, nor Smallpox, then SHOOO! You are playing Black Control, but not POX :eek:

You could always try start a new thread for MonoB.


BTW, Uba Mask was against opposing card draw, right???

For your amusement here is my latest list. Not tested yet, but what the heck.

All the Fun Cards

4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
1 braids, cabal minion
1 filth

1 sensei's divining top
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 umezawa's jitte
3 liliana of the veil

4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
1 reanimate
1 black sun's zenith
1 buried alive
1 Sickening Dreams
3 Darkblast

20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 bojuka bog



Nihilith is very good vs RUG decks in general. They can't remove him, and not block him. Only rarely do they counter or stifle him.
Only StP get him. While Baleful strix can block it usually dies to Darkblast.
That is why I play four Nihilith.

Ps, I'll squeeze in a Phyrexian Metamorph when I get them.

I'm still eager to get some feedback from my brawling, also if they're experienced pox player around I'm more than happy to get some sideboarding tips :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekron

Hello everyone!

I'm struggling to find out what I should get into my pox??

Atm my list looks like this:
// Lands
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
9 swamp

// Creatures
1 Nether Spirit

// Spells
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
3 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Mox Diamond
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Pox
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge

My biggest problem is how to sb properly against creature based decks like Canadian threshold or xyz delver. I'm sure that tribal decks should be fine after
-Swamp -sinkhole -Ghost quarter -Nether void (of got vials) or SDT and +The abyss +3 toxic deluge. But nether void and ghost quarter feels to good against counter magic with absolutely no basic lands and getting +2 extirpate and +2 surgical extraction will drive them nuts after removing all they duals.

Also I'm a bit concern about storm that do I need just a bit more against them.

Thank you very much in advance for all great tips and tricks :-)

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@captain hammer
your list looks more like a classic "discard bridge"(i think that's what its called) because of the racks, ensnaring bridges..only difference is i think the classic discard bridge runs bottomless pit instead of necrogen mist(well necrogen mist hasnt been printed yet during that time)..it also has null brooch i think..

Below is my updated that is no longer geared around Uba Mask that I would love to get people's thoughts on...

//Discard
3 Raven's Crime
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Necrogen Mists

//Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales

//Win Conditions
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction

//Utility
4 Mind Stone
4 Bottled Cloister

//Lands
2 Barren Moor
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp



check out this article, its very old but should be an interesting read and might offer some ideas..
http://www.casualplayers.org/article...&articleid=338

uba mask seems good against brainstrom decks..i haven't tested it much though..
but if its purpose is too hurt decks that like to draw cards, then wouldn't chains of Mephistopheles be better in that respect? just a thought..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

uba mask seems good against brainstrom decks..i haven't tested it much though..
but if its purpose is too hurt decks that like to draw cards, then wouldn't chains of Mephistopheles be better in that respect? just a thought..

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Absolutely chains is better since uba mask + jace/brainstorm is pretty much effective recall since on rare occasion you can actually cast any of those cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

@captain hammer
your list looks more like a classic "discard bridge"(i think that's what its called) because of the racks, ensnaring bridges..only difference is i think the classic discard bridge runs bottomless pit instead of necrogen mist(well necrogen mist hasnt been printed yet during that time)..it also has null brooch i think..

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Awesome suggestion. Null Brooch sounds like it could work. It combos very well with Bottled Cloister but at the same time, it competes with Cloister for the few flex slots. Im not sure if the deck really needs it or can really support another 4cc card.

Will test a 2/2 split with Cloister. Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Even if you dont have a Liliana to make your opponent sac them, it only takes you a turn or two longer to bounce those guys to your opponent's hand and after that, thanks to summoning sickness, you'll never need to worry about them.

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The point is that bounce is not the answer to cards like Shaman/Lavamancer. They can activate them during upkeep in response to the Scales trigger. In fact an opponent can start on zero cards in hand and, if they have 3 creatures in play, stack the triggers so they discard zero cards and then take zero damage from rack/affliction. They can then cast those creatures again in the main phase and repeat every turn. As a control deck you are going to be taking damage early before bridge/scales comes online so they may be able to win the damage race. I think you need more than just Lilly to deal with creatures.

Stack
+Shaman/Lavamancer activation (you take damage)
+Discard for Mists/Pit (no cards discarded as hand size=0)
+Scales returns creatures (Hand size now 3)
+Damage from Rack/Affliction (Zero damage as opponent has cards in hand)

Great post. I didn't realize this. Its a shame Null Brooch cant deal with creatures. Given this, Im going to forget about Null Brooch. I think, like you suggested earlier, I will instead maindeck 2 Toxic Deluge in place of 2 Bottled Cloister and replace the 2 Barren Moor with 2 Bojuka Bog. I will update my list above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Great post. I didn't realize this.

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Your welcome. If you are not used to stacking triggers the other thing to note is you can put your Necrogen Mists triggers on top of the Bottled Cloister trigger. That way you do not discard any cards (as you have none); then you return cards to your hand and draw one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lyracian

Your welcome. If you are not used to stacking triggers the other thing to note is you can put your Necrogen Mists triggers on top of the Bottled Cloister trigger. That way you do not discard any cards (as you have none); then you return cards to your hand and draw one.

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Thank you. I was aware of that. This also works with Bottomless Pit with the current oracle wording. That was the reason I opted to go up to 4 Bottled Cloister and felt I could make use of a full playset of Mishra's Factories. Having cut two Bottled Clostier, I figured I should boot a Factory as well.

Here is an updated version...


//Core Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil

//Flex Discard
2 Raven's Crime
2 Bottomless Pit
3 Oppression

//Lock
4 Noetic Scales
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Null Brooch

//Win Conditions
4 The Rack
3 Shrieking Affliction

//Utility
3 Mind Stone
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Toxic Deluge

//Land
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Cabal Pit
12 Swamp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Thank you. I was aware of that. This also works with Bottomless Pit with the current oracle wording. That was the reason I opted to go up to 4 Bottled Cloister and felt I could make use of a full playset of Mishra's Factories. Having cut two Bottled Clostier, I figured I should boot a Factory as well.

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Glad to see you have moved over to Bottomless Pits; Oppression will also help with stopping them recasting creatures after they are returned with Scales. Personally I would prefer 3 Pits/2 Oppression split but let us know how you find it in testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lyracian

The point is that bounce is not the answer to cards like Shaman/Lavamancer. They can activate them during upkeep in response to the Scales trigger. In fact an opponent can start on zero cards in hand and, if they have 3 creatures in play, stack the triggers so they discard zero cards and then take zero damage from rack/affliction. They can then cast those creatures again in the main phase and repeat every turn. As a control deck you are going to be taking damage early before bridge/scales comes online so they may be able to win the damage race. I think you need more than just Lilly to deal with creatures.

Stack
+Shaman/Lavamancer activation (you take damage)
+Discard for Mists/Pit (no cards discarded as hand size=0)
+Scales returns creatures (Hand size now 3)
+Damage from Rack/Affliction (Zero damage as opponent has cards in hand)

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I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. Given that you control Bottomless Pit, Noetic Scales, and The Rack, you choose the order of their triggers (even on your opponent's turn). Thus, optimally:

Top of Stack
-Rack damage (hand size = 0; 3 damage)
-Scales returns creatures (hand size now 3)
-Discard for Pit
Bottom of Stack

To be perfectly honest, I feel Null Brooch, Noetic Scales, Uba Mask and Bottled Cloister are all unplayable due to their mana cost. They all fall into the same category: tempting control pieces that won't stabilize a losing board state on their own, that rarely come down in time, and are essentially "more winning" when they do. Even cards like Damnation and The Abyss are too slow. All you need to due is miss a land drop or get Dazed and you lose. Nether Void I think is the only 4-drop strong enough to play. The oft-mentioned rule of thumb for playability in Legacy is CMC no higher than 3. You can almost count on one hand the number of cards good enough to see play at 4 CMC (that legitimately get cast). It's amazing how big a difference one mana can make to a card's relevance. Crucible of Worlds, Engineered Plague, and Ensnaring Bridge spring to mind as examples of cards we should always consider before trying to jam goofy 4-drops.