And I thought 2 were xD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Nah, I just asked to have a clue how you found space for Teeg, Hoof and Thar. All clear now
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And I thought 2 were xD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Nah, I just asked to have a clue how you found space for Teeg, Hoof and Thar. All clear now
It's all meta dependant at this point.
Current list for a combo/tempo meta:
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenirh
4 Natural Order
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB:
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Oblivion Ring
2 flex (atm Ghostway)
Needs 1 more land (going up to 61), might cut Shaman so I get two more.
I used to run the shaman main, but +1 land is quite relevant in most games.
17 lands, 7 Fetches, 2 Forests ... who called by manabase greedy? XP
Honestly, I can imagine gaining access to black/white mana with that list is difficult. Never had issues?
Occasionally, given the nature of the game, but usually not really. I am looking to add an extra fetch for a reason though, the land count IS low :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I also play 17 lands (4 Cradle, 7 fetches, 2 Basics, 4 Duals) + 1 Arbor, most of the time it works good enough. More Fetches feed Deathrites (but legacy is full of fetchbased decks) and increase color availability (which isn´t a real problem if you also play 3 or 4 Bircholore along with 4 Deathrites) With 6 real lands (besides cradle) you can also compensate Wastelands and are more stable against tax-counters or enable a Natural order after a wipe...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Never had issues? Sometimes this deck has issues, but with more lands you can also weaken glimpse (or even normal) draws etc.
Theros:
Thassa, God of the Sea 2u
Legendary Enchantment Creature -God M
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn’t a creature. (Each u in the mana costs of permanents you control adds to your devotion to blue.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, scry 1.
1u: Target creature you control can’t be blocked this turn.
5/5
Maybe we get a 5/5 for GG (Maro's Hint, as Lemnear said) which is indestructible (i think all god cards get it), which is nice against most removal (besides swords, submerge) with some nasty ability. Elves are tailor-made for devotion action.
The 5/5 for GG won't be the green God. Green god is humanoid, 5/5 for GG is a snake or something.
This is the most cohesive argument I've seen for Thar. It definitely has to be a meta decision. IMHO, he only belongs in the MD if you face off vs. a lot of storm in your meta. He does open up a different line of play, and for some players that might be appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
here are soem of the lameduck arguments i've seen for thar:
+6 cost instead of 8, easier to hardcast
if you're hardcasting Thar, it assuredly means you have a team of elves. Sometimes you'll have to tap out all of your elves to get to 6 mana, landing thar. He's probably better in that example. Otherwise, having a team of elves means you want to swing with them via hoof. Thar is better if you can't critical mass your elves, but it's probably a thin line between a rushed-thar and a critical-hoof. Thar also forces the inclusion of taiga, screwing with your mana base be it forest or savannah
+t2 thar is the tits
against storm, yes yes yes! no argument there, but against miracles he probably just eats a terminus, StP, or gets karakas'd. I've faced miracle decks that also pack venser, so there's that as well. Against RUG, t2 thar is just not realistic. Even if you are able to rush it out through FoW/daze/pierce, a flipped delver and one bolt will trade 2 (and 6 damage) for 3. If you don't like the flipped delver argument, change it to goyf goyf or goyf bolt, whatever floats your boat
I am starting to think long and hard about cutting Thar. I run him in the side and when I look at the side I find few times I want him over Pro. Granted I do not have to face storm locally.
A friend and I am going to get ready for the GP coming up by proxying all the decks we think we will face. I will throw together both storm decks, TES and ANT and then see what happens. Mostly I want to test RUG and BUG. But I am sure I will be able to say after 25 or 30 games against storm where I think Thar should be.
Anyone think there is any decks I should really test hard against?
If you don't have much Storm, RUG or Miracles in your meta, a 2nd Hoof main and the freed SB slot are both better than having Ruric either main or side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Personally, I have a much harder time making the right plays in fair matchups than the unfair ones, even without a specifically anti-combo loadout like I currently have. G1 D&T is grindy as hell, and definitely practice Delver Tempo. Different Stoneblade lists also require a pretty different approach. Esperblade for example you pretty much worry about Jitte and that's it, DRS-blade at least looks like a walkover. Bob-blade is annoying because wtf Bob needs to die and we play no removal, and so on. UWR Blade plays less bomby things, but has a much stronger early game. A lack of discard definitely plays in our favour. Golgari Charm and Progenitus ought to be pretty good vs. UWR.
IMHO the most cohesive argument for Thar I've seen has been the stupid number of games I've locked combo opponents out of and the relatively low number of games where a low-Impact Hoof would be noticeably better than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by amppyou
Test against the current iteration of Miracles: 3 Terminus, 4 StoP, 2 Karakas, 2-4 Venser ... The deck just shits at Ruric Thar and in danger of sounding like a dick, I have no clue who brought up Miracles as an argument FOR Thar. Same with RUG with all the Dazes, Spell Pierces, FoW and Lightning Bolts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Pal, as soon I get home I post here an abstract of the upcoming HotS Vol. 5, featuring TES vs. BGw Elves (4 Therapy, 3 Thorn, 1 Teeg)
What is HotS Vol. 5? Also thanks on the reminder for Miracles testing. I have not had to play it in a while so I forgot how much it hurts to be bent over by that deck.
Edit:
On graveyard shift for the next two weeks so I can actually interact with you all without a 7 to 12 hour delay. Wonder if you will all get sick of me...
Please take a look at my signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
There are links to detailed play-by-play reports from the perspective of a TES player and might be helpful to see the matchup from the other side of the table.
OK, can not wait to read it. Looks like it will be handy. Also there is no thanks or thumbs up button here. Great for stopping Epeen issues but not great for when people are legitimately useful.
I am taking from your post of "4 Therapy, 3 Thorn, 1 Teeg" that you like thorn in the side? Do you find it useful outside of storm and Ominshow?
No thanks needed;I gladly help. You still have to find out if the match-report wields any value for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
For the Sideboard, I can only tell you that the deck was piloted by a teammate, with me on the TES side of the table (in round 3 of the tournament). We know each other very well and he was piloting exactly my Elves-Mainboard afaik but opted to run more Thorns which are a guarateed turn 2 disruption unlike Thar against the masses of combo and Tempo decks in the meta (there is no Miracles!) so I'm maybe not the person to comment on that last-minute decision.
I think the card can be rather annoying for Reanimator, Burn, Miracles (!), RUG Delver and helpful against sweepers. Don't say that there aren't better cards, but at least it's flexible
Here it is! Round 3 from Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 ... a free peek preview ;)
Quote:
Round 3 – Elves
Oh myyyyy … it’s undeniable annoying to face a friend for a potential Top 8 elimination, but I enjoy him picking up Elves, so I can test the matchup firsthand after talking about it for weeks on The Source.
Game 1
We shuffle up and I’m able to top his dice-roll, opting to play first. I’m sure I need to be quick in this matchup as Elves developed into a blazing fast aggro/combo-deck over the last 2 months. I fan those 7.
Volcanic Island
Duress
Underground Sea
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Burning Wish
Lotus Petal
Would you keep that hand?
Geeez … again, I lack the mana to explode right into his face. I hope the double Wish + Duress is enough to strip him from NO or Glimpse while keeping the option to grapeshot his whole board. I open my turn with U.Sea and check his hand with Duress and see Deathrite Shaman, Natural Order, Elvish Visionary, Quirion Ranger, Heritage Druid, a Forest and Birchlore Ranger … the total package! I take the 4-mana-bomb. In his turn he uses his Forest to cast a topdecked Green Sun’s Zenith to put a Dryad Arbor into play. I draw a second Ritual and have the options to wish for a delayed Diminishing Returns, 10 Goblins or a Grapeshot to hold him back from casting more Elves. The last option is counterintuitive and with the cards he has in hand, EtW can be too slow. I even had Ill-Gotten Gains in mind to create a lethal loop but aside of topdecking Infernal Tutor (to tutor another Dark Ritual for stormcount) I can’t come up with more than 9 stormcount against his 20 life (while giving him Natural Order back in hand). I decide to get Diminishing Returns and grab it with a Burning Wish after I dropped my second land before shipping back. He uses a topdecked Windswept Heath to dig for a Bayou and drops Heritage, Quirion and Birchlore, tap all 3 Elves and drops the Visionary plus the Deathrite Shaman. Now things get spicy, because I don’t see an economic way to clear the field with Grapeshot anymore. I draw Probe for my turn and decide to blindfire it hoping to find more mana I can float into the D.Returns. The Probe (storm1) reveals a Green Sun’s Zenith and I can count 10 mana on his side of the field available next turn. Casting the G.Probe was golden: A Lion’s Eye Diamond made it’s way into my hand. I drop it (storm2) and the Petal (storm3), cast the 2 Ritual off the U.Sea (storm4 + storm5) and cast Diminishing Returns (storm6) via Volcanic Island and the Petal. I think about popping LED for either blue or red mana but with BBB already floating and without having played a land that turn, I gamble for another initial mana source for those colors. Diminishing Returns does its job and I hit those:
Silence
City of Brass
Rite of Flame
Ponder
Burning Wish
Gemstone Mine
Rite of Flame
Pretty nasty. I play Gemstone Mine and tap it for red, RoF (storm7), RoF (storm8), Burning Wish (storm9) for Tendrils (storm10).
5-0
For any postboard game against current iterations of Elves you have to take a lot of different potential hate into account. There are enough players that still think that Mindbreak Trap saves them, but that’s an illusion because of Duress, Cabal Therapy and Silence aside the options to outplay MBT. Keener players (like my opponent) use more proactive solutions like Cabal Therapy or permament hate like Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Gaddock Teeg or Ruric Thar. Since most options those are creatures, bringing in C.Therapy, A.Decays or Chain of Vapors for Duress makes sense. I decide to board out EtW too, because it’s not unlikely that it’s worthless in the face of Craterhoof ending the match quick and the fast pace of the game is a reason, why the Decays with their ugly cost ultimately stayed in the board. I choose to keep my beloved Silences to gain time against all the sorcery-speed hate he might present.
Sideboarding: -3 Duress, -1 EtW, +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Cabal Therapy
Game 2
To leave him unclear how and how much I boarded, I use a simple trick I recommend using in general: I shuffle both my mainboard and sideboard together and then remove 15 cards from the 75-card-pile as your new sideboard. Starting the second game as usual on the draw, with an opponent being a close friend and both knowing both decks very well, I expect this game to be a nightmare. I fan the following 7
Gitaxian Probe
Rite of Flame
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Chrome Mox
Brainstorm
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Would you keep that hand?
No land but at least a shitload of mana. The problem is that if he opens with a Cabal Therapy he’s well educated (by me, duh!) what to name: Lion’s Eye Diamond. I keep the hand because I will see the next 5 cards during the next turn. He drops a Bayou onto the battlefield and flings a Cabal Therapy. I sigh. He names indeed “Lion’s Eye Diamond” and I discard the artifact in despair while he takes notes about my hand and I see him flashbacking the Therapy next turn to timewalk me back into the stoneage by stripping the Ritual. Let’s see if I can turn the tide: I topdeck a second G.Probe during my drawphase and put the Sorcery on the stack going to 18 (storm1), seeing GSZ, Dryad Arbor, Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger and Thorn of Amethyst! At least, I draw a Gemstone Mine off the Probe and that raises my hopes. I probe again (storm2) to draw Brainstorm #2 just to imprint it into the Chrome Mox (storm3) and cast its twin (storm4), drawing Burning Wish, Ponder and LED. Ponder and RoF return back on top of my Library, before I continue to drop Gemstone and cast Petal (storm5) + LED (storm6). I notice that I already gathered 6 storm and can wish for 18 Goblins or spin the Diminishing Returns roulette with a mana floating. I recap his hand with my taken notes and don’t think he’ll be able to cast a topdecked Natural Order within the next 2 turns for value, so I cast the Dark Ritual off the Gemstone Mine (storm7), pop the Petal for red mana and offer a Burning Wish (storm8) with my Lion’s Eye Diamond as tribute to summon 18 angry goblins via EtW (storm9). I lean back, being sure, that this was the maximum value I could have squeezed out after being successfully hit by Therapy and with it being ready to flashback next turn and Thorn of Amethyst sitting in his hand … both now being complete blanks now. He facepalm himself in disbelieve, taking his turn. He draws, drops D.Arbor and Deathrite Shaman before passing back. I draw my well known Ponder I once hid ontop of my library and cast it off the Mox, seeing the also known Rite of Flame + Brainstorm & Chain of Vapor, keeping the bounce-spell in case of. I swing with the army, beating him to a bloody pulp with 3 remaining life after DRS blocked a single goblin to death. He draws and plays Quirion Ranger off his Arbor and I bounce his Deathrite Shaman to prevent some untap-shenanigans into Natural Order (here are no lands in any graveyard however). Taking a few moments to calculate his odds, he picks up all the other cards in addition to the bounced Elf.
6-0
Most of my experience against Storm is ANT so this was good to read. I will say that WRT game two that you menion him flashing back cabal therapy and naming dark ritual would time walk you. If you didn't draw a second probe, would you play Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox so you could brainstorm in response to the flash back cabal therapy? I know that if i were the elves player and saw that hand turn one and the next turn you played no land I would name Brainstorm (but this is mostly from playing against ANT so any input from the POV of this storm deck is very helpful).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Nice read. Thanks. I agree on targeting Brainstorm for the second target.
So storm mate. Needs to be turn one or two only. That leaves Trap or more discard. I am not sure I like trap but I was thinking about dropping two more discard into the deck in the form of Thoughtseize.
I'm sure calling the Ritual is the right call if you play against a deck which can topdeck Infernal, Burning Wish, Ponder or another Brainstorm and is immediately back in the game. I remind, that storm-decks can't do anything without their big mana accelerants (which Dark Ritual is without a doubt). I always tell peeps to target mana against storm with LED top on the list with blind Therapy, because the lack of that card often blocks Infernal Tutor and the Tutors and Cantrips are redundant unlike the +2/+3 mana sourcesQuote:
Originally Posted by trevaftw
I would not burn a Petal and a Brainstorm against Therapy because that is an outright waste of resources. A Chrome Mox would have been a different story but I did not have access to a second blue card (in addition to the Brainstorm) to imprint.