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Why is that? I figured with flashback + all the yard creature triggers it would work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't have a 75 with Kelpie. Previous was:
12 dredgers
4 chancellor
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Nether SHadow
4 Ichorid
3 prized amalgam
4 narcos
4 dread returns
4 cabal therapy
4 street wraith
4 probes
4 bridges
1 flayer
4 phantasmos
1 flamekin
4 fow
4 faerie macs
3 contagion
1 prized
1 whirpool rider
1 iona
1 elesh? forget exactly
You need them so you can go for the combo kill that same turn. If you just mean to DR a creature and not combo them to death that turn, just DR Flayer of the Hatebound. It's the quickest route to victory. No need to speed up your dredges.Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d
As for your list - between 14 and 16 dredgers would be the golden standard. You've experienced why. If you want to run FoWs (anywhere) and no Disrupting Shoals, just choose Whirlpool Drake as your standard DR target. Its CMC doesn't matter due to the lack of Shoal, and since it gives you twice the dredges Rider would it is by definition better. There's also the corner case where it could block a Merit Lage token, but that's very, very rare and can also be done by Stinkweed Imp. Just cut the Spies, go w/ Drake & free up some extra slots in your SB.
As for Manaless vs. LED Dredge - those unfamiliar to Manaless do seem to have that sentiment. The thing is that while Manaless is simply dead vs. a few very specific hate cards, it cares much less about less powerful (but more frequently seen) hate. LED Dredge can be controlled relatively easily w/ a DRS, or stuff like Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre. Just get rid of their Ichorids and the deck falls flat on its ass. Vs. Manaless, you can take away any given part and the deck'll just continue to function. Strip away Ichorids? Sure, we've got 12 recurring creatures left. Strip away a bunch of dredgers? Sure, we've got a bunch more. Strip away DR/CT or DR targets? Drop tax stuff so we can't execute the combo kill? We don't care, we'll just go for Horde Mode. Kill our Bridges? Fine, we've got plenty of recurring creatures to function without. Vs. a lot of decks, it's have Cage/RiP or bust.
I did feel the lack of dredgers. the inconsistency is what bugged me.
I'm not saying dropping flayer is the right move, that is the argument being made up a bit in the thread. I'm saying if you do drop it AND Balustrades, why not Kelpie.
I probably will pick up a few drakes to test numbers. They are better than Rider.
My reasoning for Kelpie > Drake is that Drake only works with cards in hand and optimally we want to NOT have cards in hand due to phantasmagorian and not wanting dredgers in hand. To me this makes something that works from yard strategies the better engine card.
I agree about the differences between dredge decks, but I do think LED dredge has more control over the game plan and tends to go faster. Having mana also gives access to SB cards to anti-hate the yard hate. I'm not saying it's the better deck. I don't have enough experience with either really. These are my ideas for it. Going to pick up call to the netherworlds as well. that seems fun.
Kelpie without Flayer is completely unnecessary. When removing the DR package, just cut the Dread Returns themselves as well while you're at it for extra slots. That being said, I'd never, ever cut Flayer. It's too damn strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d
As for Kelpie vs. Drake - 2 cards in hand equals 4 dredges. It gets really nuts, really quick.
Other options for 'Blue Creature that draws multiple cards on ETB' are Sphinx of Lost Truths (or maybe even Prime Speaker Zegana).
The common argument for LED vs Manaless is the one that Echelon outlines where even though Manaless can get totally hosed by e.g. RIP, Leyline, it is better at playing through more common hate such as DRS and Surgical. My 2c on the LED vs Manaless is that both decks lose to graveyard hate but the LED version also loses to counterspells. Saying that LED is better against hate because you can play spells to answer it is not a convincing argument for me because it's so hard to get that play to line up correctly.
Where the LED version is clearly better is against other combo decks because it's simply much faster.
Keplie can draw that many and more without any cards in hand, which is the gameplan. That's my main point.
Dread kelpie-draw a card, sac keplie to cabal therapy, that's two more cards. one off cast one off persist trigger.
If you sac kelpie to another dread thats 3 cards, cast, kelpie persist, and whatever comes back.
Keplie is ALWAYS live, where whirlpools are only live with cards in hand, which is where you DON'T want to be.
Regardless I'll try both.
My experience with both dredge decks is that you often don't have the answer for the hate regardless. I agree that manaless is better v targeted hate rather than broad hate. RIP tends to be RIP regardless for my games.
that sphinx is awesome. Will be buying those. I was considering the new hour of devastation blue guy, but sphinx does that better. Thanks!
There's an error in order there though - you want to cast CT before casting DR, not after. I mean, Daze, FoW & Spell Pierce are still cards, right? And strictly speaking, Kelpie only is live when you can cast spells from your graveyard (so a lone Kelpie on the board doesn't necessarily do much here) or when there are other creatures recurring from your GY.Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d
As for the cards in hand thing - I don't mind having a couple of dredgers in hand (which happens naturally) or, situationally, just discarding 3 cards to Phantasmagorian instead of 6 b/c I know I'm about to combo out.
The reason to play kelpie would, from what I can tell in the list you gave, act as an additional spy/draw engine to get to your combo. But you aren't even running 4 spys in your list, so why wouldn't you just add a 4th spy before finding room for a kelpie? Am I missing something?
the conversation started with someone saying that flayer and spies aren't necessary for the deck. that the deck runs smoothly enough to not need it.
My point was to add to the engine with kelpies because you can control the draws and still dredge out.
Yes you want to DR after CT, but after you can do both and dredge at the same time.
Nevermind everyone I'll goldfish it, and when i get to playing it in an fnm i'll report back. It'll be a while though as I'm playing something else right now.
My bad. I thought the kelpie was a fresh topic vs continuation of the existing one and you were working it into your above list.
I had tried whirlpool rider/drake in the main and I didn't care for it too much. I tended to either whiff on it and waste a DR or it wasn't necessary at the time and I would have rather had a different card (not all but most). I haven't tried a kelpie and that may be better since it's more reusable, but I don't know.
Fwiw I run horde mode with no spies, 2 flayer, and 15 dredgers (3 of which are dakmore salvage to combat thalia and bring in bloodghasts. I don't run riders, contagions, or pharaohs main at the moment). Maybe it works better in another build?
that actually sounds fun, but is not manaless.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
got a list though?
I love that the name Horde Mode stuck around :laugh:
You are correct, technically not manaless, but i say that since I just use it to pay "taxes", it still counts. That's how i sleep at night :)Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d
//dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage
//Draws
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street wraith
//Recurring
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Nether shadow
4 Bloodghast
//Other critters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
//The rest
4 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
Concerning your list - I'd probably swap a DR for a 4th copy of Cabal Therapy. Therapy is more important than DR, especially now you only aim to resolve 1/2 DR rather than 2/3.
I always tell my opponents to fear the hoard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
@ronco your list looks to be set up to abuse Kelpie. I know there is an older list somewhere from when it was tried before. If you want to leave your list as is I would test +2 kelpie and go down 1 DR and 1 Nether Shadow.
I have also recently been playing with 2 Flayers again and loving it. I don't think that playing Ashen Rider over Flayer is correct.
I can certainly give it a shot and see how it feels. I wasn't a huge fan of the drakes/riders when I tested them, but maybe kelpie works better. I envision I could DR it, triggers itself, dredge something, flip a narco, trigger again. cast cabal therapy, trigger twice thanks to persist, DR a flayer perhaps, triggers twice again.... amalgrams come in EOT, trigger some more...Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpWorld
I like 2 flayers too. I ran into issues of not having it available when I needed it and the second one really helped. I have the riders I can bring in if needed but so far hasn't really been an issue.
The way casting the cabal out of yard works you won't actually get the kelpie cast trigger, only the persist trigger.
Still works saccing a zombie or anything else etc.
Good catch, thanks.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but why would Kelpie be run over a Griselbrand?
Griselbrand is good too. A friend tells me he is a MUST for dredge. I like to keep my options open.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
Blue for FOW though.
Griselbrand is really really good. A 7/7 flying Lifelink body plus paying 7 life to dredge your whole deck or at least most of it. I don't think he's a MUST but he was the target of choice before spy.Quote:
Originally Posted by compacta_d