[Deck] Suicide Black

Hmmm...and when does this Tombstalker come down?

Let's say, in a very optimistic approximation, that you can get one card in your graveyard down per turn.

Let's also say that you can get one mana per turn until turn 3, and 1 mana every other turn after that- also optimistic.

That means Tombstalker can come out on what, Turn 5? That's if you draw nothing but spells and land. In a deck that wants to combine vry early disruption with very early beats, Tombstalker is a poor choice. There's simply not enough fuel.

Example hand that I just revved up: Swamp, Swamp, Thoughtseizex2, Hymn, Shade, Negator. What card did you want to remove again? How is tombstalker going to come down at all from this hand?

Of course you don't play 4 Tombstalkers. Merely 1-2. But when they DO come down vs thresh, they're devastating. And they're for midgame, not early game, duh. Against Thresh the fight is largely in the midgame, anyway, not early...

This is Suiblack. There IS no midgame!

If your opponent isn't either hamstrung or heavily damaged by turn 4, you're doing it wrong.

Ok im gonna break my vow of silence since i will not be playing sui at TMLO (maybe someone else playing my deck but it certainly wont be me behind the cards) as buying 3 fetches is more expensive then a few singles i need to fill up another deck.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

This is Suiblack. There IS no midgame!

If your opponent isn't either hamstrung or heavily damaged by turn 4, you're doing it wrong.

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Sui does have a midgame, its just not what you should be focusing on. Confidant and jitte are both midgame cards but are not the focus of the deck. The early game is where this deck should be aiming at because it runs accelartion like d rit and the newly popular mox. This is why i believe zombies belong in the deck because they are a decent 1 drop and they smooth out your curve (please dont argue with me here, we can agree to disagree).

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Of course you don't play 4 Tombstalkers. Merely 1-2. But when they DO come down vs thresh, they're devastating. And they're for midgame, not early game, duh. Against Thresh the fight is largely in the midgame, anyway, not early...

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Dark confidant is an important card and paying 8 life sucks. Against thresh it is meh because they get most of there pump from their own yard. They come down slow and it gets answered by all of their counter magic outside of balance

REMOVAL:

Thoughtsieze gives the deck a new way to handle creatures so less removal is needed. I have decided to drop thoughtsieze in my white build because the life loss was getting to me, and stp is removal enough with jitte. I would only play this deck with 2-3 sources of life loss and if you run sieze, bob, phage, and fetches like i do thenits to much. SOme other things:

- Play jittes... if you cant then play snuffs but be careful with them and bob

- sieze and jittes are enough removal. sieze is just worse late game then spot removal. This is what you trade for versatality.

LEYLINE/VOID:

Leyline lets you play more cards but you have to mull if you want to find it. void works better with confidant.

So if you run bob then play void and if ou dont play leyline.

I'm a fraid we can't agree to disagree on the issue of Zombies.

Zombies, now that Mox and Thoughtzeize are making their way into the deck, are out moded. There is literally no reason to run them anymore.

On turn 1, any of Ritual, Mox, Duress or Thoughtseize is better
On turn 2, any of the earlier plays plus Shade, Confidant, and Hymn are better
On turn 3, Gator and Hyppie and any two of the earlier plays are better.

If Isamaru no longer makes the cut, why would worse versions? Put another way, this is Legacy, not 98 standard. Every single card in the deck needs to be able to win the game or cripple the opponent's strategy. The Zombies have trouble doing either.

Umm like i said, i dont run thoughtsieze (also i dont believe chrome fits the deck and even if it does I wont be running it until I can muster up the 60-80 dollars) so zombie fits my deck perfectly. I agree that zombies may not fit your deck but as for mine they are good 1 drops.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

I'm a fraid we can't agree to disagree on the issue of Zombies.

Zombies, now that Mox and Thoughtzeize are making their way into the deck, are out moded. There is literally no reason to run them anymore.

On turn 1, any of Ritual, Mox, Duress or Thoughtseize is better
On turn 2, any of the earlier plays plus Shade, Confidant, and Hymn are better
On turn 3, Gator and Hyppie and any two of the earlier plays are better.

If Isamaru no longer makes the cut, why would worse versions? Put another way, this is Legacy, not 98 standard. Every single card in the deck needs to be able to win the game or cripple the opponent's strategy. The Zombies have trouble doing either.

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Ah, now, see, here's some interesting discussion.

First of all, I'm right on with Techno on pretty much everything he said. I may think he's on crack regarding Sinkhole, or Leyline, or whatever it was, but he's pretty dead on here. Jitte and Thoughtseize are enough removal, and people don't run enough threats. I'm also not necessarily right on board with Chrome Mox. Mox's acceleration is solid, but the Zombies more or less do the same thing.

I dispute that Duress/Thoughtseize is automatically a better turn one play than Carnophage/Sarcomancy. It -can- be, depending on what deck you're playing against, but it isn't always.

Dark Ritual's better than -anything- on turn one. However, Dark Ritual does not necessarily preclude anything. Dark Ritual can, for example, allow a ridiculous first turn of Carnophage/Sarcomancy/Duress, or Shade/Duress followed by turn two Carnophage/Sarcomancy, or the occasional turn one Ritual/Triple Zombie (I lost to this in a tournament with 4C Landstill when this play was immediately followed by a Hymn taking away both lands I hadn't dropped, leaving me to die with 2 Pernicious Deeds in hand.) The Zombies are better -because- of Dark Ritual.

As for your last paragraph, Isamaru doesn't make the cut in what, exactly? Suicide Black doesn't run plains, and last I checked Death and Taxes loves the puppy. As for every card winning the game or crippling the opponent's strategy, despite that I completely disagree with your argument, it's in fact an argument -for- the zombies and -against- Chrome Mox. Carnophages and Sarcomancies kill your opponents. Chrome Moxes don't.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Carnophages and Sarcomancies kill your opponents. Chrome Moxes don't.

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The better creature that you lay down due to the mox's acceleration does though. I agree that the zombies are by far the safer play and will not cause some random crap happening to you. However, this deck can't fool around and for the most part Chrome Mox will add power do your deck.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

The better creature that you lay down due to the mox's acceleration does though. I agree that the zombies are by far the safer play and will not cause some random crap happening to you. However, this deck can't fool around and for the most part Chrome Mox will add power do your deck.

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Lowering your threat count for faster threat is never a good idea, especially in Suicide Black. Your creatures are very fragile as it is, anyway.

EDIT: Of course, better threat is different, but unless you're talking bout Goyf or Negator good, it does not make much difference.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

Lowering your threat count for faster threat is never a good idea, especially in Suicide Black. Your creatures are very fragile as it is, anyway.

EDIT: Of course, better threat is different, but unless you're talking bout Goyf or Negator good, it does not make much difference.

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This does have a lot of truth in it, but the mox makes the Hyppie so much better and laying down a Confidant first turn is strong. That is 12 out of 18 creatures that love to be dropped early due to the Mox. I will admit Confidant is a weaker example of this, but second turn Hyppie is indeed a strong play. Also, it has surpising synergy with this deck due to all the dead cards. This is one of the few decks that could see a Mox mid game and not despair over having to pitch some important spell. Half the time you won't be pitching a creature anyway. The way I am looking at it is. How viable is Sui Black as it stands? If you answer me not quite there, then I would suggest we need to take the risk that is chrome mox.

Meh, I have been thinking of the removal issue and am having a hard time believing there should be any MB removal besides Jitte. Its one of the biggest reasons Black has an edge over Blue. You guys could be right on this issue, but it just feels hard to believe. I would love to debate further if anyone is actually interested.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

This does have a lot of truth in it, but the mox makes the Hyppie so much better and laying down a Confidant first turn is strong. That is 12 out of 18 creatures that love to be dropped early due to the Mox. I will admit Confidant is a weaker example of this, but second turn Hyppie is indeed a strong play. Also, it has surpising synergy with this deck due to all the dead cards. This is one of the few decks that could see a Mox mid game and not despair over having to pitch some important spell. Half the time you won't be pitching a creature anyway. The way I am looking at it is. How viable is Sui Black as it stands? If you answer me not quite there, then I would suggest we need to take the risk that is chrome mox.

Meh, I have been thinking of the removal issue and am having a hard time believing there should be any MB removal besides Jitte. Its one of the biggest reasons Black has an edge over Blue. You guys could be right on this issue, but it just feels hard to believe. I would love to debate further if anyone is actually interested.

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I played Chrome mox a while ago, and that boost is not quite worth it. It's whether:

1. Overkill.
2. Your early threat dies and mox just sits there like a swamp.
3. You run out of gas after a sweeping or two, and lose.

If you think you have too much dead card, then it's a deckbuilding problem you got there. especially if those cards are dead in the early game. I couldn't care less about Chrome Mox after turn 5 or something, and before that, it eats up that important early game gas. I'd much rather run unmask if you have trouble with dead cards.

I also have to point out random EE/Keg at 0 to get zombie tokens becomes LD if Mox is on the table.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

I played Chrome mox a while ago, and that boost is not quite worth it. It's whether:

1. Overkill.
2. Your early threat dies and mox just sits there like a swamp.
3. You run out of gas after a sweeping or two, and lose.

If you think you have too much dead card, then it's a deckbuilding problem you got there. especially if those cards are dead in the early game. I couldn't care less about Chrome Mox after turn 5 or something, and before that, it eats up that important early game gas. I'd much rather run unmask if you have trouble with dead cards.

I also have to point out random EE/Keg at 0 to get zombie tokens becomes LD if Mox is on the table.

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Dead cards in your hand is a Sui Black problem period. That is the nature of discard. I was merely commenting that most of other decks would be much more disturbed by a mid game mox then we would. That is generally one of the biggest complaints about it. Here, one of the major flaws of the cards merely turns into the equivalent of drawing into land. Anyway, I am not quite sure how a turn 2 Hyppie is over kill. It is what the deck wants. Plus what decks are you playing against? I am not being sarcastic, I am just curious of your meta. I don't claim to come from the greatest meta myself, but to me it seems laying strong early threats against many of the Tier 1 decks seem to be just what the doctor ordered. I will take the risk.

Yeah your point about having your early threat die is a very valid point and one that I always agreed on. However, does having that one extra card in your hand save the day? Yeah it could at times, but I don't think you are fairly weighing the benefits of Chrome Mox. The Mox gives you tempo at a price, but I feel I got more than just that. In my build at least, it allowed me to rid myself of the 1cc zombies. It allowed me to lay down my Bob and Stromgald Crusader(not too shabby of a first turn play) turn one, or my Hyppie/Gator turn 2. Plus you still never answered my question. Is Sui Black viable as is? I say no, and everyone else is trying to fix the Sui problem through different means. Some are MB GY hate and others are trying to make it faster. I think something should be done. The Chrome Mox is one answer, and one that might require more deck tweaks to really make it work.

Also, to help your last point out it also turns your opponents krosan grips into LD. Yeah it is something to think about, but I don't see it as a major concern.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

Also, to help your last point out it also turns your opponents krosan grips into LD. Yeah it is something to think about, but I don't see it as a major concern.

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I'm half drunk, so just on this point.

Grip turning into LD is fine. otherwise it will aim at Jitte or Scroll or something.
I just don't like how EE is prevalent due to ETW, and it kinda splashes to the Mox. but well, since you do not run Sarcomancy anymore, I guess it's alright.

EDIT: You do realize no matter how much tempo you get from mox, a bolt or StP will set it back in a snap, right? Is turn 2 Hyppy really worth it? your hard matchups gets worse if you take that path, or at least in my experience. If you prefer better threats, I think you have to look for something similar to Deadguy or something.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

I'm half drunk, so just on this point.

Grip turning into LD is fine. otherwise it will aim at Jitte or Scroll or something.
I just don't like how EE is prevalent due to ETW, and it kinda splashes to the Mox. but well, since you do not run Sarcomancy anymore, I guess it's alright.

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Ha ha ha awesome, it has been a while since I had a good drink. Anyway, I am not sure what impact EE will have here but EE at 2 would be more devastating. I could be wrong, but I think under most circumstances they won't use it to kill the mox.

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Originally Posted by C.P.

EDIT: You do realize no matter how much tempo you get from mox, a bolt or StP will set it back in a snap, right? Is turn 2 Hyppy really worth it? your hard matchups gets worse if you take that path, or at least in my experience. If you prefer better threats, I think you have to look for something similar to Deadguy or something.

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This is why I run Stromgald Crusader, Order of the Ebon Hand, and Hand of Cruelty/Black Knight/Knight of Stromgald/etc. Flipping off Swords to Plowshares is always a worthwhile endeavor.

For what it's worth, I'm currently testing a pair of Chrome Mox, as double in your opening hand is almost an auto-mulligan and I don't think 4 is correct at all. But personally I'm not overly sold on it unless you're running Negator. The synergy between Negator and Mox is enough to where I think you run neither or both. (I still pick neither.)

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

This is why I run Stromgald Crusader, Order of the Ebon Hand, and Hand of Cruelty/Black Knight/Knight of Stromgald/etc. Flipping off Swords to Plowshares is always a worthwhile endeavor.

For what it's worth, I'm currently testing a pair of Chrome Mox, as double in your opening hand is almost an auto-mulligan and I don't think 4 is correct at all. But personally I'm not overly sold on it unless you're running Negator. The synergy between Negator and Mox is enough to where I think you run neither or both. (I still pick neither.)

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Running 4 is not too bad. Those double mox hands don't happen nearly enough to make it a major concern. I would like to ensure an early draw of it. Also, MB GY hate would be a much less risky affair due to the ability to use it to accelerate your normal game plan.

I am thinking of a creature base like this for a mox build...

4 Gator
4 Bob
4 Shade
4 Hyppie
3 Stromgald Crusader

Bob makes up for the card disadvantage and Hyppie= Best turn two play. The creature count is 19, because your threats are now more vulnerable. I think I am going to jump the ditch the LD train... Unfortunately you really can't run wastelands with 7 pump/jump critters. I thought 6 was doable, but even then it wasn't optimal. Meh, I will miss you LD.

The idea I'm trying to get at by saying that T1 Thoughtsieze is better than T1 Zombie is part of accepting the fact that in a aggro meta, Suicide is basically never the right choice, unless you can somehow slip to the draw bracket. Suicide's aggro matchup is universally terrible, because your MD is packed with dead discard, etc. Jitte helps, but not enough. And a zombie is just a 2/2 for one. As good as that is, it's just a speedbump.

Now, Duress is bad versus aggro, because they're aren't running enough non-creatures to make it matter. But, it's awesome vs. control, as it removes an answer, and still more awesome vs. combo, where you can hammer on their weak point. It's even good vs aggro-control, as long as you can quickly ramp to a threat afterwards. Zombie, however, is just a 2/2 again- a 2/2 which buys your opponent time, at the cost of life, to throw up some kind of defense, or win outright.

So my conjecture is that in the control/combo metagame, which is the only meta you should be playing Suicide in, Duress is a better T1 play than Zombie.

Here is my newest list. Yeah its pretty rough right now. I am trying to branch out and experiment a little.

Creatures
4x Bob
4x Hyppie
4x Shade
4x Gator
3x Stromgald crusader

Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Duress

Removal
3x Jitte
2x Smother

Extra Draw
Night's Whisper x2

Mana and accelerants
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
17x Swamp

SB

4x Dystopia
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Serum Powder

It needs a lot of work, but I think it is going to be interesting. I feel Night's Whispers is underrated and goes nice with the mox. As for the mox count, I can only feign confidence at this point. It is tough, and will probably take more testing. Running 19 creatures plus a little extra draw should keep the threat count sufficent. I am still a bit Gofy paranoid and stuck two Smother in the deck. I want to get a 4th Serum Powder in the SB somehow. As for MBing GY hate, I am right back on the fence.

Moving things around to make Mox better in the deck should be worth it. A faster clock is always nice and puts increased pressure on the opponent. Anyway, as always I appreciate any criticism.

This is the list I run:

18x Swamp

4x Dark Ritual

4x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Smother

4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Order of the Ebon Hand
2x Knight of Stromgald
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter


Duress and Thoughtseize are just to good not to run a set of each.
Jitte is another that is impossible not to run a set. Even being legendary, it's just too good. I still felt the need for more removal, that's why I run 2x Smother. Since I run Bob, Snuff Out was out of question.
I like the pump knights a lot more than Hand of Cruelty. Evasion + pump or initiative + pump is way better than bushido.
I think bob should be in, it helps you refill while being aggressive.
Hyppie helps agains a chalice set for 2 and has evasion. It's also a source of something like card advantage.
I don't like md Negator because I fear UGr Thresh, Burn, Red Death too much to run it.

@Teacup: Filip's right. A set of Duress and a set of Thoughtseize.

@Filip: No 1-drops, No 2-drops of toughness higher than 1, and no Chrome Moxes is going to get you slaughtered by Vial Goblins. Those Jittes aren't going to bail you out for a second because you're rarely if ever going to get a Jitte equipped and getting counters.

Plus it's just going to wreak havoc with your curve. You almost have to run Chrome Mox -or- Carnophage or Sarcomancy.