But are we actually afraid of those decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
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But are we actually afraid of those decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
New idea I've been kicking around for a sb:
3x Tropical Island
2x Threads of Disloyalty
2x Treachery
3x Mystic Remora
5x other cards.
The MD would swap ESG for Lotus Petal.
Eh?
Mystic Remora is a lot better in theory than it is in practice.
Why exactly? Don't we already have enough anti-creature stuff? I'd prefer the SB to help bad match-ups rather than make even/good ones better.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
I ran Mystic Remora for a while. I ended up not liking it for a few reasons. Primarily you want to board it in against control decks that run few creatures (otherwise they just drop doodz and you looz). I found it a bit lacking even against Threshold because I was inhibited by the cumulative upkeep as much as they were inhibited by not being able to Brainstorm randomly.
First, it's hard to know when to cast it. It can function like a pseudo-standstill if you play it too early. Enchantress is really not equipped to deal with that, we don't run enough lands to compete.
If you cast it too late, it obviously has no impact. The ideal time to stick it is turn 2 when you can follow up with an Argothian. In this situation, it's really, really good. That's a pretty rare drop, though. If you have an EP instead, you have to wait until after your must-counter to put Mystic Remora in play, which seems silly.
I would definitely try it, though. It's a solid card in many MUs, but I think you'll fall back on just using Choke against blue decks anyway. It also has bad synergy with Aura of Silence.
In terms of blue cards to run, I think Words of Wind is better than Words of War as a wincon. It's actually very easy to force your opponent to scoop up his entire board. It takes 8-10 skipped draws from Words of War to win the game. Your opponents will almost certainly have less than 8-10 permanents out. Secondly, it's much easier to get draws off because you can skip draws to bounce Exploration and/or Serra's Sanctum to generate huge amounts of mana and additional draws to continue to fuel it. Words of Wind --> Upheaval is less of a win than WoWar --> Win, but it's so much easier to pull off. I've upheavaled my Goblins opponent on turn 4 with a good hand. You simply could not do that with Words of War (you could maybe shoot the doodz, but you couldn't shoot the doodz and keep a full hand).
There ARE some decks that can theoretically recover from a complete board sweep (like TES), but Aura of Silence seals the deal. And definitely by next turn you can dig through the entire rest of your deck. Bouncing Exploration, you can get a draw from a G (or two) and a serra's sanctum tap for G. If you have Ground Seal to bounce, you can go massively faster.
Other blue cards to consider: Lilting Refrain (really solid against Control (functions as a "must counter" by countering their counter), probably gets the thumbs up against TES if you happen to be running it, but they'd have to stall petty badly). Energy Flux (Affinity/Stax hate).
In general, I don't like the Wasteland vulnerability of digging deeper into Blue, though. And I hate how sometimes I play a Tropical Island and then resolve a Choke.
I like Control Magic effects a lot. I might suggest Binding Grasp because it only costs 3U. It ties up your land, but you can probably resolve it. I really like the idea of Treachery and Threads, but UU looks hard to support.
Just wanted to drop a note I eventually tried Zach's(?) idea of running 3 Chrome Mox instead of Elvish Spirit Guide. I really liked it and I think 3 is the exact right number.
and why chrome mox instead of spirit guide? I think losing 1 card in hand hurts early game more than losing 2 and besides I was always happy with green. I don't need to remove a sterling grove just to get white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
That's the assumption under which I decided to run ESG insteaf of Mox several months ago. However the point is, both ESG and Chrome Mox are -1 card. With ESG you generate a 1-turn boost to power out 1st turn Enchantress or the like. Chrome Mox does the same but _stays_ on the board thereby providing an additonal mana source for the next turns to came. After all I came to the conclusion that I slightly prefer Mox over ESG because of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
People argue ESG is good for dodging Daze on an Enchantress. Think of it, Mox does so as well.
1st turn Argothian Enchantress dies to Daze (unless you got 2 ESG..) just like with Mox
2nd turn Argothian Enchantress doesnt die to Daze no matter if you run ESG or Mox
I hope you got me on this. I prefer the permanent acceleration provided by Mox over the temporary boost of ESV. Enchantress is a deck that always got plenty of use for spare mana. Especially against control and aggro where you want to resolve and maintain key cards like Confinement+Enchantress effect or stuff like Choke/City of Solitude/Blood Moon my reasoning is that its just better to be able to drop a card like Ground Seal or something to Mox thereby getting ahead in "land"drops. I only run 20 lands and 3 Mox just turned out really fine.
Maybe Zach can provide us with his thoughts behind Mox again.
thanks for the reply. I really didn't think of chrome mox as a permanent... *stupid me*
I'll test it. Saturday's a tournament and I'll probably play Enchantress since I'm lending my Goyf Sligh to a friend of mine.
Mox costs you a card and the mox itself, meaning 2 cards total. ESG removes only itself for a single -1 card. I don't know the exact situations and whatnot, but Mox is most certainly more disadvantage than ESG. The difference is that Mox leaves a permanent mana source to the table. Note that that source can be destroyed by Deed, ect.Quote:
However the point is, both ESG and Chrome Mox are -1 card
But in the situation of ESG on the second turn, your opponent bounces his land and loses a daze in return for only your ESG. This nets you a tempo gain, as you're not going to hit that daze again, say when you're trying to drop moat the next turn.Quote:
People argue ESG is good for dodging Daze on an Enchantress. Think of it, Mox does so as well.
1st turn Argothian Enchantress dies to Daze (unless you got 2 ESG..) just like with Mox
2nd turn Argothian Enchantress doesnt die to Daze no matter if you run ESG or Mox
You said it. Mox is -1 card just as ESG. I get your point but obviously I evaluate an additional mana source higher than you do, especially in Enchantress. When (I think it was) Zach 1st suggested Chrome Mox I thought it was terrible and I'd never be playing it instead of ESG but after watching his performance on the 2man tournament and giving it a try I'm now fully convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
My new list:
//Lands
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
9 Forest
3 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
//21
//Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
//4
//Spells
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Ground Seal
2 Wild Growth
2 Replenish
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sylvan Library //I do not look so good. -1 Sylvan Library +1 ????
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Words of War
//35
Suggestions?
Metagame?Quote:
Originally Posted by slaiter
Looks solid overall. You might wanna try additional acceleration (Elvish Spirit Guide or Chrome Mox, try and make up your mind on both).
/edit: The numbers of land, creatures and spells add up to 61 but you only listed 60 cards.
Spells = 35 sorry
My metagame:
Goblins
Burn
Agroo Loam
Ad Nauseam(terrible match, obvious)
White Stax
Dragron-Stompy
Landstill
Thresh
What strikes me is the need for say 3 copies of Sacred Ground sideboard as well as the usual distribution of 3 Karmic Justice between main- and sideboard. Your Aggro Loam and White Stax matchups will thank you for it.
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Goblins should be ok provided you manage your lands well (always enchant basics and never put more than 1 sprawl/growth on a land because of Port).
Dragon Stompy is peace of cake unless they go 1st turn Pit Dragon 2nd turn attack for 20..very unlikely.
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Against Landstill I prefer Choke over City of Solitude and run 4 in the board. Might as well try against Thresh but I rarely run into them.
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Burn is a good matchup in theory but can win as soon as turn 4 giving you little time to find and hide under Confinement. I never did so but if burn actually caused problems for me I might wanna look into Harsh Judgement.
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Why exactly do you run Wheel of Sun and Moon? Against Loam and White Stax (Crucible shenanigans) I'd much rather have Sacred Ground.
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You might wanna add a 3rd Replenish to the board for the Loam (Reverrent Silence), Landstill and Goblin matchup; yes Goblins as it allows for more "fog"-Confinements, recurrsion of Sterling Grove (Krosan Grip be gone) as well as an additional out against Krosan Grip. Game2 its just better than Wheel or Aura.
Recycling Confinements against a deck that can hit you for lots at instant speed isn't a good idea. If there's a Siege Gang on the other side, you'll never want to do that unless you got City on the board, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Yeah, thanks for stating the obvious. And yes, City is reasonable against Goblins, people wouldnt believe. I really like how it stops them from tying up my manabase with Port.
No problem, that's my job. Glad to be of service. Now you do your job and explain this to me: How can recycling Confinements be generally a good thing against Goblins? Apart from the City scenario, the first thing a Matron grabs is a Siege Gang, so you kinda can't rely on that. Let me state the obvious again: Relying on unreliable things leads to game losses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Have you never let a Confinement die in upkeep because you were facing a lethal attack just to replenish it back in mainphase? Thereby even getting back a Sterling Grove that tutored for the needed 2nd Enchantress-effect. Thats my point in "recycling" it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I believe you think that by "recycling" I meant playing it without need just to draw a card and let it die the next upkeep. That's not my point. Maybe I should have been clearer on this.
What I meant with recycling a Confinement was letting one die and bringing the same back or another one to the board. It's not as if playing "Cycling COST". It's more like what the word "recycling" suggests me, so it probably made my sentence obscure enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
What I was arguing is that, against Goblins, you will usually face a Siege-Gang Commander, so you can't do that unless you are backed up by a City of Solitude, therefore I don't think it's a good enough decision to board in that extra Replenish for that, unless there's some empty slots asking to be filled.