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Disk is underrated in Landstill builds that don't run either white or both black and green (In otherwords, UB, UBR, UR, UG, etc.) It's still a godlike board sweeper and it's not like Landstill can't stall until turn four.
There's a lot of Nevinyrral's Disk in my metagame and I've played against it enough to realize that while it's not Pernicious Deed, it's still pretty good and can cause me problems.
Ive been playing a list that I have kind of scrounged up at the last minute because I didn't feel like playing my narcobridge, and I also wanted to try landstill with 2 different cards.
here is my list:
land:
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 mishra's factory
2 nantuko monastery
enchantment:
4 standstill
4 pernicious deed
instant:
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 counterspell
2 diabolic edict/smother matters if goblins there
3 stifle
2 fact or fiction
creature:
4 tarmogoyf
secret tech:
2 garruk wildspeaker
sideboard:
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
3 extripate
2 krosan grip
2 trickbind
The decklist, is a mix of the old bhwc build and bardo's build. I took first in a tourny last night with about 12 ppl showing up. The decks varied from threshold, RGW beats, RGWB beats, narcobridge, 42 land, sui black,and a couple of rogue decks.
match 1: vince RGW beats
His deck was the average aggro deck with tarm burn and weenies.
We rolled dice, I won the roll to go first.
I started off by playing a trop and saying go.
He plays a bloodstained mire, I stifle and he curses.
next turn I drop a tarm and say go.
he draws a card, doesnt lay a land and says go.
as you might see, this goes on for a couple of turns.
eventually he gets a land but to far down in life to help.
second game, I have to mullugan down to 5( didnt see any land at all)
this match didnt go to well, i didnt get more than 3 land, no goyfs and he had 3 with burn back up.
third game
It didnt go too well in the beggining, with him dropping guys like crazy. burning my goyfs. he put me down to 4 life and I deed the board. he plays his fireblast in response(which is his last card in hand) and I luckily had a force waiting. then I drop my last goyf and said go. somehow i draw 3 standstills in a row and slowly draw my cards again and win this match with 1 life.
1-0
second match is against bobby with 42 land
now I figured I would get wiped in this match up.
First game I play land and say go. he wastelands with me stifling it. then I drop a goyf, he plays second waste, I topdeck a trop like a champ and play a second goyf. I just attack like crazy and he seems not to hit a single life the whole game and I win with goyf.
second game, I have 3 land in hand with no stifle. I was able to drop a goyf then he wastelands twice, then next turn he plays loam and starts engine. I got another land and played 1 more goyf. he wastes both of my land and Im slowly killing him with him havin 1 maze of ith on board. I put him down to 7 life and he finally gets some blockers. then I drop a sea and extripate his loam, he curses but then wastelands my land and drops tabernacle land and a lose my creatures, he kills me in 2 turns.
game three, we had a stifle wasteland war, which he won eventually with life, but I was able to keep strong till midgame when I was able tp extripate his life and stablize myself. but by this time he has a couple of creatures swinging, as hes beating me down to 12 life, I drop my new idea, I added for the deck, Garruk wildspeaker, and put a token into play, he attacks with 2 guys, I swords 1 and block the other, this is where i made my mistake, i started going on the offensive and take this match back, then ding the time runs out and I get 3 turns to kill him. this is where I made my mistake, I forgot to use garruks ability to untap 2 land on my first turn which led me to only have 3 counters on my last turn and when I attacked with 1 token and 2 goyfs, I was able to stifle his ith so all of my guys swung in, he had 15 life and I was only able to do 13 with my guys, if i had the one counter i could have given them over run and won.
1-0-1
third match gus tes
this match was vague really, first game he combos off first second turn, with me forcing to counter his chant and then not having a counter to stop him.
second game, was him mulluguning down to 5 and I drop down 2 goyfs before he has enough to go off, then he tries to go off, I counter his chant and then counter his tutor which forced him to use tendrals for only 12 damage, then after 2 turns hes dead.
3rd game, I dont rememer much about this, other than he tried to go off twice, but I had more counters than needed. with no creatures ever, we ran out of time and tied.
1-0-2
the last round.
this game was against a person new to the shop, who was playing RGW Beats, I'm not going into this because it ended just like the first guy, he was able to get me to low life, but I was able to stable out and beat him.
2-0-2
playoffs
I made it to the playoffs at the 4th spot out of 4 which made me face bobby again with 42 lands since he went 3-0-1, luckily the games were pretty much the same but without a time limit. first game, goyf out raced, second game, extripate wins it.
finals: this game was against a man by the name of adam who was playing a BGU gro deck with main creatures of goyf/dryad with deed back up and counter/draw.
aw hell why am I telling you this, by this time, it was about 11:30 at night and Adam and I decided to split first to go play some EDH
sry if there is any spelling errors, I'm not that great at writing on a rush.
In conclusion to this tourny, my worst matchup(42 lands) is now not a bad matchup with goyf, and the straight beats decks which can get us sometimes before we can deed away is easily beatable with goyf. also I could say that goyf has literally boosted every single matchup. I have liked garruk, but I will have to try some more before ill decide, if played, garruk means instant win. I'm sorry I have not told what I sideboarded in just for the fact, that I dont remember. also with this I have decided to take out the countertop in my sideboard to go with this:
4 extirpate
4 meddling mage
3 krosan grip
2 engineered plague
2 trickbind
I'm also Tinkering around with Garruk, as Planeswalkers are proving to be really strong in my control-infested metagame. He's proving to be far stronger than Jace (Except that Jace pitches to Force of Will and is significantly easier to cast), and he's giving me outs against all the Maindeck Port-And-Extirpate Rock builds infesting my metagame and making Landstill a nightmare to play.
One of the best things about Garruk Wildspeaker is that depending on your board state, he can either open up Counterspell Mana for you via the Untap ability, or protect himself from dying via the make a 3/3 ability (Though often an opponent will remove the 3/3, then swing at Garruk.)
My personal conclusion so far is that Garruk is much, much better in UBG Landstill without the white splash than he is in 4C, as he's a fantastic secondary kill if you don't have Monestary and he's much better if you have the manabase to consistently back him up.
I have also noticed this and have thought of dropping white. I didnt have a problem with this because I can replace stp with smother, the only thing is that I will have to find a replacement for mage in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
with garruk, I found that even though he costs 4, if you dont need a blocker that turn, he only costs 2 and if you do need a blocker, he gives you 1 every other turn. which is dam good with standstill.
about the fact that they will kill your creature then swing into to attack garruk, I had a couple of times where this happened. and it didnt bother me to much when it happened because when they did this, if it was late game, they wasted a removal on a token and also an extra turn where they could have hit you for life, which gives you another turn to try to get a removal, a creature or deed. which alot of times that one turn is what I need to get to win and sometimes a monestary wont do it because it can easily be removed.
when I played with garruk, he was a good card throu a couple of testing, which in my opinion, a new card needs to be great before ill add it, but when I got to 2 matchups, it shined like no other. the first one is threshold. if you can get it to stick, this card usually means game with threshold. they just cant keep up. and usually they cant remove it. which isnt a too big of a deal bc landstill doesnt have a horrible matchup against threshold.
the but the one matchup that completly blew me out of the water was the 42 land.dec. if I put garruk out, it means game. one part is that they cant keep up with the creatures, and with it out, their wasteland attack doesnt have a huge effect. also it ruins the rashidan port plan, and it ruins the tabernacle plan cuz u can just let it die and bring another one into play. I played 2 games against a man named bobby at my shop ( hes a very experienced 42 land.dec pilot, one of the best i've seen, he went 3-0-1 with his draw to me, and then I beat him in playoffs, look above for report.) and I beat him once and tied him the other time, but if I have one more turn, I could have beaten him, I just needed to do 2 damage more.
I had thoughts of dropping white to add smother, garruk,and thoughtseize.
also, garruks only bad matchup is combo jsut because he costs so much, but a deck always needs card to side out for sideboard:smile:
How do they not just shut you down with Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, exactly? Or for that matter, how do they not just Keldon Megaliths / Barbarian Ring him to death?
I've used him in UBG Threshold since he was released, and he's one of the main reasons I cut White. Between him and Shriekmaw, the deck has a lot more win conditions than it use to, so it doesn't matter if you cut Nantuko Monastery and replace Swords to Plowshares with an equivalent removal spell, Nantuko Monastery has been lacking since Tarmogoyf pushed the power toughness ratio over 4 any way.
He's just a retardedly powerful and synergistic 4cc bomb that doesn't require you to drop your defenses.
well with tarmogoyf, your pretty much making standstill into a control aggro deck, and you just put a clock on them, usually if ur just vigilent with it, they usually have a problem getting more than 1 maze, 2 at the most. and yes tabernacle is still a pain and one of the reasons I lost one game to him, its more the fact is I try to keep him from using life as much as I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
the ring, didnt come into effect untill the playoffs only because hes never worked with planeswalker so He didnt realize that you can redirect damage from the ring to garruk, he thought you had to attack it.(hes not much of a type 2 person, mainly 1.5) and this is the first time hes seen one in action,(my first time too, but I made sure I knew what I was doing with him.)
Its just the fact that tarmogoyf is so fast that he has to take drastic measures to try and remove him, and it makes it hard on them.
With all this talk about U/b/g Landstill, I thought I'd share my current list.
Vorosh Control
by Bardo
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw / Smother / Edict / Garruk
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Tolaria West (?)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith / Tabernacle
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mindslaver
Any thoughts on making it better? I'm not terribly fond of the sideboard.
FWIW, earlier today the Lilliana Vess I got from a MOTL trade arrived, so I'll see how she does here.
Edit - Re: Lilliana. Not so good; 3BB is a whole lot of mana.
Have you ever wanted more Counters like Mana Leak or Spell Snare? Or even Stifle? I always want as many counters as possible. Just my playstyle, probably.
You're normally so busy committing mana for your powerful permanents in your main phases, that more reactive cards kinda get in the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
When you start adding cards like Deed, Shackles, Goyf (EE and Standstill to a somewhat lesser degree) you move away from a reactive draw-go kind of deck and start playing a deck that trades timing flexibility for raw power.
To answer your question, the Goyfs were Spell Snares and Stifles, but were dropped to have a more active and aggresive gameplan.
I was wondering Bardo have you tried eternal witness? I think it could be worth testing at least since you can bring back your utility cards as well as goyfs. Although double green could be hard on your manabase but I think it might be worth looking into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
As a landstill fanatic that loves monastery, If I switched to BGU(which I havnt done close to enough testing with christmas and all.)this would be the list
land:
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
1 island
2 bayou
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 mishra's factory
enchantment:
4 standstill
4 pernicious deed
instant:
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 smother
4 counterspell
2 diabolic edict
2 stifle
2 fact or fiction
artifact:
2 engineered explosives
creature:
4 tarmogoyf
secret tech:
2 garruk wildspeaker
sideboard:
4 extripate
3 krosan grip
2 trickbind
4 thoughtseize
2 chill(mainly because I have alot of red aggro)
I kinda took bardo's idea with having deed and ee, and it really does work well, not sure if garruk with worth dropping white but I got lots of testing to do.
First of all, and actually pretty important, is anyone else having problems getting planeswalkers into their deck on MWS if they don't have creatures in the list? Mine is only working because I have a copy of the 1996 world champion, or whatever, in the deck.
Sorry about my quoting skills - I deleted most of your post when I was cutting out the list, but I honestly don't care enough to go back and patch it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by blac198990
How are those two Bayous treating you? On a car ride back from TMLO:III or some other, similarly distant event (NOVA, now that I think about it), we (EPIC crew) threw together a UBg list we called Landfill because it wasn't really Landstill-y enough, and it included a couple copies of LFTL, from which we apparrently gleaned the suffix -fill. In any event, Counterspell was wicked hard to cast, but all of the creature kill (and Tarmogoyfs, born of Scott Scheywer's LS list at the event) was easy as... something easy. Your mom, maybe. End result: I'm not sure that non-blue duals are right, unless they're Scrublands or Savannahs, and you're plainscycling for them.
Now, my standard "I'm not drunk, no matter what Matt says, but I still have some animosity towards your list - not you" disclaimer is in effect:
Two stifle. Okay, I'm down with that. But, when the careful observer draws his eyes farther down the list, he discovers two copies of Trickbind. Now, I must ask you - what the hell is up with that? Why not make it 4 Stifle? Is the "Danger of Cool Things" un-counterability of Trickbind cool enough to make it turn two you make belcher lose? TES is always fluctuating between 4, 6, and 8 chants main, so I can't really use them as an example, but what about SI? Don't they win turn one somethetimes? That's Stifle territory, my bromide. Broseph. Brother. Just wondering.
Also, what would a dedicated control (i.e. "My life total is my only concern until turn 100") deck want with Thoughtsieze? Did I spell that right? I always mess up the "i" and the "e." Anyway, I honestly can't see what you'd want to have Thoughtsieze against that Duress wouldn't do better. Against Goblins you are not boarding that shit in. Breakfast should be pretty good already, what with 4 Stifle-effects, 4 Extirpate, 4 Deed and 2 EE. What do you want them for? The Enchantress match? I'd drop that shit like a trig class.
Also, and this is a completely honest thing, I think you need some anti-Magus of the Moon tech. 1 Island and a sideboard of hope and prayers don't cut it, in my book (that is actually gramatically correct, since it's a plurar subject). I'd like to see a basic Swamp (which is fetchable), Hydroblasts (which are more potent 1-shot answers against red), and/or... a third option. Ah! Slaughter pact! Thank you, Zulander!
@ blac198990 - I agree with LonelyBaritone on the Bayous. I own a single Bayou and used to run it in GAT for no other than reason than "nine duals is better than eight, right?" No. Even that single Bayou forced me to mulligan otherwise keepable hands or wouldn't let me do everything I wanted in the same turn.
Anyway, I'm pretty much positive that basic Islands or more fetchlands are just better there.
@ AgentFunk - I haven't tried Witness here and it never really occurred to me. Basically, any doubled colored-mana cost that isn't blue is a real pain in the ass to cast, since you have those colorless sources and two secondary colors to support. Any xGG or xBB spell should win the game for you (e.g. Haunting Echoes).
In this deck, Witness is a harder to cast Regrowth with an unimpressive 2/1 body attached. If she could be abused here (Slide) or you really needed the utility (G/B/x Rock), then maybe.
Yeah I figured that witness wouldn't help that much considering it doesn't really do anything that significant in the game state. I mean so what if it can bring back standstills because that's when fact or fictions and other utility comes in. Maybe you can run cunning wish in your ugb landstill bardo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Thought I'd share this build (Simone Giovannetti's) which is pretty interesting. It went unbeaten at yesterday's 114-player Legacygeddon, defeating RG Beatz, Angel Stompy w/ green splash, 38 Lands, Black Thresh (with maindeck Wastes and Extirpate), RW Goblins, RW Goblins again (another list with Wastes and no Ports), and a Goyf-still deck very similar to Antonino de Rosa's.
Giovannetti's comments: Tombstalker is chosen over Tarmogoyf for several reasons: it doesn't die from Smother and Demise which have been HEAVILY played of late as Goyf answers, it doesn't die from Deed, and it shrinks opponent's Goyfs. The SB is tuned against Goblins (a staple in Finale tournaments) and secondarily against Thresh and the mirror.
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [A] Underground Sea
3 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [A] Counterspell
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [US] Duress
That's a pretty badass list. It maximizes the use of Stifle by running Wasteland over Nantuko Monestary, which is a completely viable choice when you run a decent alternate kill condition.
The lack of Mage in the sideboard makes me cringe, however. Maybe it's just the skill level of the people who play these decks as Mage/Therapy/Needle are only as awesome as the ability of the player to name cards, but I win more games by shutting my opponent down via Mage than I can possibly count, and I can't imagine a matchup where I'd rather have Duress than Mage.
I think that if you aren't running Mage, there's no real reason to be running white over straight UBG. Swords to Plowshares loses little by becoming Innocent Blood or Smother, and the only other card that runs white in that deck is Crime, which could easily be a second Explosives. Plus, the double black for Tombstalker is easier to come across in a UBG build (Ditto for double green on Garruk.)
Shriekmaw comes to mind too. Can't kill Tombstalker, similarly evades your Deeds and Explosives, and is a relevant and evasive clock. Plus if you switch to just three colours you can make room for 1x Volrath's Stronghold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Though I'm still wary to drop StP. Black's spot removal is either 2cc or mediocre (Innocent Blood is a no-no in this list, and Ghastly Demise is not as reliable as in Black Threshold). Meh, off to testing.
I wasn't actually intending to recommend dropping white so much as I was recommending adding Mage to the board (Over Duress, which sucks.) The list is fine at 4C with Wasteland over Monestary due to the addition of more kill conditions. But Mage is so incredibly awesome in white-packing builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
actually for the first part about the bayou's, those are in there because first, I havnt decided to add more fetch, wasteland, or new duel lands, and I didnt have the new duels to do it at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
the reason I went with trickbind, is because no one in my area plays with SI right now, but a couple of tes and belcher which plays red elemental blasts. which trickbind laughs at.
the one reason I went with thoughtseize, is because I feel that it would help in the mirror, and it also helps with combo, and I choose thoughtseize instead of duress because some combo decks play swarm, which is a pain sometimes. specially if I take out my creature hate for combo hate.
I dont have a single magus deck in my area and I have only played against it once, and the deck wasnt a problem.
I was going to red-text the shit out of this post. But in the spirit of the day, Merry Christmas, etc. - Bardo