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Yes, yes it is. It's too easy for the wasteland to simply mana screw you over in an opening draw. The wastelands are also somewhat useless against mono-colored decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Two colors can be somewhat tricky with my U/G thresh deck. How in the world you run 3 colors AND wastelands is beyond me: you are just asking for someone to use wasteland against you. :frown:
I'm not sure whether Memory Lapse or Remand is better. Remand really blows vs. Force of Will, but Remanding a cheap (but not free) spell makes them try to play it twice in one turn, making Daze more effective (because they tapped twice the mana).
Of course, if you're playing Predict, Memory Lapse is definitely better.
I wouldn't say it's easy to get mana screwed by Wasteland in your opening hand. Having switched up my UGb Thresh to include Wasteland, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to mulligan because of Waste. It just really doesn't screw you up. You're playing 11-14 cantrips to find land. The reason you can run 3 colors is because you're playing 13-14 colored sources. You're also playing Stifles and Fetchlands (and to a lesser degree, Daze) which protect your mana base.
Sometimes you just win games by Wasting a land and Stifling a fetch. Either that or it gives you such a huge tempo boost that Tarmogoyf just goes all the way. Against mono-colored decks, they aren't so great, but then you play Brainstorm/Predict/Mental Note/Fetches. All of which let you get rid of them. But how many competitive decks are you seeing that are mono-colored that aren't Goblins (I don't count burn because it's just a bad deck)?
If you can get away with playing only 13-14 colored sources, is it best to use the extra room for Wastelands? I think I'd rather run more spells in those slots.
I believe I'd keep Wasteland. Against a lot of decks, the one-two punch of Waste and Stifle is enough to keep mana hungry control decks out of the game. It also compliments Daze as well, because you create a situation where it is extremely difficult for your opponent to play around it.
It seems to me that Thresh has kind of adopted Goblins idea of running small land control package as a means to force through it's own threats. And it can play counters.
Well, I'm not sold on the LD package. I mean, look at this list:
//16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Predict
//12
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Werebear
//11
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Pithing Needle
//8
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fire/Ice
//13
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
I was able to fit a lot of things into this list by cutting lands. It doesn't have the LD package, but it does have extra draw, removal, and threats. What does everyone think?
Seem to me that you are going to spend the bulk of your time casting cantrip, after cantrip since having such an reduced land base. That being said, you'd think that more free spells would fit nicely. Things like submerge, misdirection and maybe snapback? This is why I think that the wasteland build seems better suited to play just U/g.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
That manabase doesn't seem "reduced" when compared to the builds with Wasteland that people have posted in this thread.
More free spells would definitely be nice, but if any of them (besides Force and Daze, of course) were really playable they'd be nice in any build of Thresh.
I only see this deck functioning optimally with 16 Blue sources. 14 is too low, that is why Aggressive mulligans are made. The same applies with the lack of good cantrips in Tempo-Thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
The deck can work fine... but it still needs tons of work to be done on it.
What? Does your list (the one with Wastelands) need more lands or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Well... I had the mindset done... but I will admit, it mulligans very aggressively. It made the deck play like 4c Landstill with Wastelands in the deck. An option I was considering was actually boarding in Wastelands to compliment Stifles in certain trouble match-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
But yes, I would run more lands. I might cut a Wasteland for another Island, and probably a Remand.
I was just browsing through some old Legacy articles @ SCG and came across the below deck list in an article by Chris Coppola.
There are some obvious improvements that can be made like replacing Counterspells with Stifle or maybe Fire/Ice, since this build is suppose to be extremely aggressive, Ponder over SV and adding fetch over one of the basic Islands. That brings me to my point, the article stated that this build is more on the aggro side than control (odd due to the Counterspell inclusion); does the cantrip base lend itself to that statement?Quote:
Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Pithing Needle
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear
Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Predict
Sorceries
3 Portent
4 Serum Visions
Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
4 Pyroclasm
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions (or Ponder)
3 Portent
3 Predict
Will this get you the early Threshold that is needed running the above creature base, or should the 3 count cantrips be replaced by Mental Note?
I've been running that exact cantrip base for over a year now, and it is definitely not on the aggressive side. It lends itself well to chaining cantrips, true, but those cantrips usually draw me into counters to control the game, not go aggro. Obviously I'll be switching the portents to ponders, and dropping the fourth serum visions for the last ponder.
I always disliked mental note, and I think it's especially bad now that tarmogoyf has replaced werebear, so to me an aggressive list should just drop the counterspells for more burn. If speed is such a concern, I don't know if pithing needle and predict should go too (since I never play agressively with the deck) so I'll let someone else tackle that.
Edit: Oh ok, so that list runs werebear in addition to goyf. Then yes, mental note should proably replace predict.
Has anyone tested against BaseRuption ? I didn't have the time to playtest the match-up yet but I think UGR-Thresh could have a hard time winning. Maybe Wasteland + Stifle builds have a better chance of winning...
@Mental Note:
Pre-Goyf, I've played the 4/4/4 Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Mental Note cantrip base (see Liek's GP Columbus 6th place list) for a while. It made the deck agressive, but I really disliked Mental Note against decks where I needed to dig for specific cards (for example, Pyroclasm/Stifle/Fow/Needle against Belcher or TES).
Since the mirror is common nowadays, I switched to 4/4/4 Brainstorm, Serum Visions (soon to be Ponder), Predict to be able to play CB-Top maindeck (3 CB, 2 Tops) and to assemble the 'combo' quickly. I'm not saying it's 'the thing to do', but I'm more comfortable with my current cantrip list than with my previous one (BS, SV, MN).
As of Pre-Lorwyn, the cantrip base was
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
They kinda dropped visions, considering Top does that cantrip chains do already, but much better.
I ran this decklist this past weekend at the 1.5 I was in.
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
3 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Quirion Dryad
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire+Ice
2 Stifle
Sideboard:
3 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Spell Snare
2 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Naturalize
4 Pyroclasm
I'm thinking of takeing out the mental notes, and visions. The visions are going to be taken out for ponders and the mental notes I'm not sure about maybe another cantrip or something else. Side I'm iffy about as well. Grip's work wonderfully against counterballance and hell even top and shackels is harder to get rid of than threads.
Here's my list...
// Lands 17
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon
// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Counterbalance
// Sideboard 15
1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
Blood Moon is just simply amazing against Landstill and 43 Land.
Tormod's Crypt is used in fear of Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. For me, Breakfast not too much, but most definitely Ichorid.
Counterbalance is maindecked now in favor of a better threshold match-up, and still maintain the same tools to use against Goblins as well.
Finally got to test ponder in a tournament setting and I am sold. There were at least 3 times when if i were playing serum visions i would have been at a serious disadvantage. SV is good when you have a second draw to get to those 2 scry cards if you really need them.
Ponder just feels like a sorcery speed brainstorm, i'll be using it permanently in my UGr build.
Ponder is amazing. It does what Serum Visions and Portent can't do. Only problem is that the art sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenalpow
I would like to open the forum up to a communal blowjob with respect to Ponder...
Seriously though, Ponder changes a huge dynamic of the deck for me, and after the addition of Counter/Top and Ponder, I feel like I'm playing a hugely different deck, which isn't that bad, I guess. I play with brainstorms a lot differently now is a big thing, I use it more as a hand fixer than the "Oh, Shit" purpose that it has served, again to mixed results.
One final thought; does wizards watch Legacy and print cards that make threshold good? Wait, they don't know it's a format.