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actually it performs more or less the same function as Atog... but I think I would rather keep my critters in play than have to sacrifice them... then again, sacrificing them so that I get Disciple of the Vault Damage is a good thing as well.... so really its a toss up... it depends really on the type of Vial Affinity you happen to be playing in any given situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
What did you cut for Glaze Fiends? The deck is as tight as it has ever been. Only change I made was up both Drum and Vial count to 4, going down to 16 lands.
The list I played today:
Land:
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Great Furnace
Creatures:
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Ornithopter
4x Glaze Fiend
4x Disciple of the Vault
3x Frogmite
3x Myr Enforcer
Spells:
4x Shrapnel Blast
4x Thoughtcast
4x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
2x Chromatic Star
How did this list do for you and what were you matched against? I'm surprised at no Master of Etherium or aether vial anywhere....Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
I played this list against Stasis, burn, elves, Slivers, and a rogue red/white deck, and ended up taking first (only out of eight, but still). I'd thought it was going to be a casual play afternoon, so had proxied up some Masters, but when enough people showed for sanctioning, had to quickly swap in four of something that I actually owned. Glaze Fiend just seemed to offer the most synergy.
I've always found Vial to be underwhelming in Affinity. It often slows you down a turn, and is a magnet for cards like Pithing Needle (abundant in my meta). For accel, I usually just run the four Drums and call it good.
You don't think people will be needling your Ravagers or platings? Hell, I'd much rather they needle my aether vial instead of either of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
Ravager's modular is still effective even after it's been Needled, and you'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that equipping is an activated ability. Vial, once it's been shut down, is absolutely useless. The chances that your opponent has more than one early-game Pithing Needle are slim to none, and I know that I'd shut down Vial before I'd shut down Ravager.
@ indelicate
In practice, modular may or may not be very effective in this case. If someone drops an early needle, then Affinity can't sac to Ravager, and so you often won't usually have much more than 2cc Arcbound Worker.Quote:
Ravager's modular is still effective even after it's been Needled
Needling the sac outlet of Ravager not only owns the card, but also dismantles Disciple. Needle hits 8 cards in this case.
Are you building a deck to beat bad players or good ones?Quote:
and you'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that equipping is an activated ability.
Your argument is that Aether Vial is singularly powerful enough that it usually deserves to be needled before both Ravager and Cranial Plating. Isn't this justification to run Aether Vial? In your case, if Aether Vial goes un-needled, then you get the benefit of something equal to or greater than Ravager/Plating. If it eats a needle, then you just saved your Ravager/Plating, right?Quote:
Vial, once it's been shut down, is absolutely useless. The chances that your opponent has more than one early-game Pithing Needle are slim to none, and I know that I'd shut down Vial before I'd shut down Ravager.
Your argument against Aether Vial is the equivalent of removing a card from a deck because it would meet an opponent's Force of Will. The truth is that adding more "must counters" to the deck simply makes you more resilient to hate, like needle, used against you.
Additionally, just because needle can hit something doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. Artifacts in play are never "useless" in Affinity, even if they are needled to lose some functionality.
peace,
4eak
I'll repeat it for posterity--I am not impressed by Vial. It slows the deck down, is a big ol' target for Needle and stifle abilities, and could just as easily be a Worker or Disciple.
As for "building a deck to beat bad players", in my experience you need to be just as prepared for bad decks as you are for good ones. Same goes for good and bad players. I've seen good players lose because a bad player did something completely unexpected.
*cough*
Returning to my original point, has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend?
1. How exactly does it slow the deck down? It's an artifact. Also, you can never dismiss making your Ravagers/Masters uncounterable. That's probably the best use of the card in practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
2. As others have said over and over again, which you seem to be ignoring, a Needle on Vial is a Needle NOT on Ravager and Plating. Maybe we shouldn't run Master of Etherium as well, since that's a big ol' target for Swords to Plowshares.
3. Vial can never be a Worker or a Disciple. Those cards are used WITH Vial in the deck. Also, Vial is used WITH Springleaf Drum as well.
It looks nice on paper, but how big does it really get from your experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
All I am saying is that your argument about needle is a pointless one (hehe, I love puns). If you don't like Vial, then I suggest trying to use better arguments than "it gets hit by needle." So far, you've just been dodging the debate. If you make a claim, then please defend it.Quote:
I'll repeat it for posterity--I am not impressed by Vial. It slows the deck down, is a big ol' target for Needle and stifle abilities, and could just as easily be a Worker or Disciple.
Yes. The deck has no room for it just as it doesn't have room for Atog.Quote:
Returning to my original point, has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend?
Play MoE and Vial instead.
peace,
4eak
Good advice. Regardless of what color or 'type' of affinity you are playing, run MoE. It's one of the strongest creatures this deck can run.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Cute, 4eak. I've already explained that I'm not playing MoE because of budget concerns, and I've repeated several times that I (and some others) don't find Vial as stellar as it might be. The curve just isn't right.
@kicks--Fiend consistently dealt 8-10 damage on turn 3, and continued to beat face with Plating. Also, Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable.
How do you reckon vial does not make creatures uncounterable? Is pernicious deed or board wipe in general just not played in your metagame? You cannot underestimate vialing in a disciple in response to deed. GGQuote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
What do you mean Vial doesn't make creatures uncounterable? Your not playing them your putting them into play with Vial. They can Stifle Vial but cannot counter a creature that's been put into play with it.
Edit: You beat me to it mans0011.
Also not running MoE due to budget reasons is really not an acceptable reason. They cost like $4 a piece if that, Ravager's cost more than that.
Yeah... I would so much rather they stifle aether vial than a massive modular movement. That would suck out loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero_2285
Edit: Sorry, I know this is going to be a bad argument, so I'm acknowledging that and saying that it's just something to point out-- there IS a reason that aether vial is banned in extended. It's awesome. And not just in ravager. It's an awesome card.
@ indelicate
When I tell you to play MoE instead of Glaze Fiend it is because you ask questions like this:Quote:
Cute, 4eak. I've already explained that I'm not playing MoE because of budget concerns
There is no good way to understand the overall value of Glaze Fiend without comparing it to cards that could (and should) replace it like MoE.Quote:
A quick question--has anyone else tested Glaze Fiend in Legacy Affinity?
If you run Glaze Fiend because you don't have the budget to play better cards, then be sure to write about your problem in context. Given your cardpool, perhaps Glaze Fiends might be worth choosing. Given the Legacy cardpool, Glaze Fiend sucks.
Don't ask questions about "Legacy Affinity" in general unless you are willing to assume that cards like MoE must be taken into consideration. Broad questions and claims of viability you've made in the past 3 pages are not ones that are allowed to silently assume a budget.
You continually post like your cardpool limitations don't have a serious impact on your perceptions of how best to create Legacy Vial Affinity. You might not have the budget or experience with the deck to realize it, but MoE and Vial do belong in Legacy Vial Affinity.
peace,
4eak
Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
If you had a set of Master, would you play with them? If yes, what would you cut from the deck? If no, why not? I think we're all trying to make the best Affinity build here. Budget constraints shouldn't be in the way of that. Are 4 Vials out of your budget too so you haven't tested it?
I could see how Fiend could get as large as that for a one time swing, but it would just be a 2/3 flyer the rest of the time. I think the beef of Master and the pump ability is better than that.
Vial and MoE belong in this deck. This has happened to me many games.Quote:
Originally Posted by indelicate
Turn 1: Art. Land, Vial, Thopter
Turn 2: Art. Land, tap Vial drop DotV for free, probably tap 2 and drop Plating
Turn 3: Art. Land, tap Vial drop Ravager for free, or now tap 2 and drop Plating, equip to Thopter, swing for 7
Turn 4: Drop Art. Land or you might miss this land drop, tap Vial drop MoE for free, that makes Thopter a 9-10/1, swing to put them at 3-4 life, sac 3-4 artifacts and it's gg, or wait 1 more turn to finish the job.
This deck curves between like 2 and 3 and Vial falls under the curve so how is the curve not right for Vial when it's cc is 1?
I think that this is a poor example of why vial is so good. Your goldfish situation with drum and the same hand could easily be:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero_2285
T1: Artifact Land, Drum, Thopter, DotV
T2: Artifact Land, Plating, Equip Thopter, Thopter swings for 5
T3: Artifact Land, Ravager, Thopter swings for 7 + DotV for 1 if there are no blocks. If either DotV can get through or your opponent has cracked a fetch you win.
So it's pretty obvious that in terms of speed drum is better. I think a better example of vial superiority would be a real game against some kind of blue deck. In that game the deck with drum has one less must counter threat while the deck with vial has one more. So if they had hands that were exactly the same but swapping vials with drums the drum deck would lose assuming the control deck could deal with their X threats (X being however many threats they draw). The Vial deck would have X+1 threats and in addition if vial does not eat a FoW T1 then all the counterspells in the control deck's hand would essentially be blanked on creatures giving the vial deck a huge advantage. I hope I haven't rehashed too much. I think this is why we need a new thread because it seems like we keep arguing the same points over and over again and a shorter thread with a nice first post might help.
On Glaze Fiend:
I've yet to test but would like to get around to it. I would imagine that Atog would be better if you didn't want to play MoE. Another alternative would be Somber Hoverguard. Although it only hits for 3, unlike everything else mentioned above, its the only card in this list that easily dodges EE and deed.
Shrapnel Blast/Fling/Soul's Fire:
This is what really saddens me about MoE. Some games having that reach after just getting wrecked by deed/wrath/etc it would be nice to be able to just try to burn them out. Has anyone successfully put them in their deck with MoE? And on that note if I expect to face a lot of pernicious deeds obviously I want City of Brass instead of Glimmervoid but could I put in more Darksteel Citadels or do something else to help me against deed?
Sideboards:
Right now I've somewhat recently started testing the deck and I'm wondering about basic sideboard strategy and what a possible board would like. Some basic questions: How would I side against a deck with deed/EE? +needles, + KGrip? -? Combo seems like I would probably want to either abandon the matchup or side in something like therapies and canonists for maybe enforcers and MoE? What about burn or goyf sligh? Jittes seem like they could be good or is simply racing them usually fine? I'm definitely forgetting matchups so maybe people just sharing their current sideboards along with some explanation would helpful enough.