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But how do we get that much slots, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl
Bringing Firestorms seems to be really necessary, also Elesh Norn, the 4th Ichorid, and maybe some Grudges after all.
Maybe, trading Tribes for Firestorms, and... Breakthroughs?
read back 8 postsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
So, no Grudges?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl
Don't you consider leaving the Therapys as a counter bait?
I don't play grudges, I like my SB cards to be able to do more work then that. While grudge is very good at what it does, it cant stop deed, knight(for bojouka bog), vial, mutavault, factory, and the new kid on the block stoneforge mystic/batterskull/moartarpod. and I DO leave in therapys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojeh
Hey 2nd lawl have you considered replacing firestorm with darkblast and going down to two colors. I know city isn't a bad land, but darkslick over gemstone mines is great for attrition wars. Thoughts?
I'm playing LEDless Dredge and have read a lot about siding -4 Breakthroughs, +4 Firestorms against Merfolk, a particularly tough matchup. I understand the reasoning... but why not toss the Careful Studies instead? Seems to me both Study and Breakthrough can be cast @ 1, breakthrough giving you more draws and also allowing you to play it @ 2 to avoid missteps...
I am new, so correct me if I'm wrong to do that. Is it because Careful Study allows you to sculpt your hand more easily, which is useful when slow dredging? Isn't Breakthrough explosive enough to not worry about it?
@2nd_lawl: Congratz on the finish!!! Some questions about your list.
- What did led you to run Gitaxian probe? On this hand why gitaxian probe over street wraith?
- No Iona, no FKZ sounds me risky. Could you explain you thoughts to Titan and primus? Consider that you don't automatically win when you DR them.
- What do you often retrieve with titan? LED, a LAnd, Imp?
- What is your main target to run primus main deck?
Thx you in advance.
Gitaxian Probe makes some well aimed Cabal Therapy, which are really important in these blue infected meta (and LED lists are more vulnerable to countermagic). Still, it's always nice to dredge EOT with Street Wraith (and it feeds Ichorid).
I'd make a 2/2 split. But that's my noob opinion :(
Woodfall Primus are there for some epic land/enchantment/artifact destruction along with the perfect synergy with Cabal Therapy + Bridge from Below. But Sun Titan seems a little weird... I'd replace him with FKZ.
I've been testing Brainstorm as well. I know it's a known tech, but it's pretty fine... Dredging lots for U and putting back those stupid Narcomoebas that keep showing up on our opening hands are really nice.
Another thing that I'd like to point out, is that the two most popular decks, Team America and Merfolk, run totally different graveyard hate (TA usually goes for Leyline of the Void and Merfolk usually goes for Relic of Progenitus). Wouldn't be wise to put back some Chain of Vapor, since we're going for DDD more often than ever (and CoV hits all kind of hate)?
have you ever cast a firestorm?Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
not to be rude or anything.
Have you ever cast darkblast?
They work very differently but fill similar spots in the deck.
Firestorm alone might not be worth making a 2 color deck 5 colors. The guy that top 4nd the BoM used darkblast over firestorm and he was using the five color build.
Darkblast allows constant board control, while Firestorm is one-shot. A few posts ago, I said I was testing 3x maindeck Firestorm, though. Well, with Mental Misstep madness all over the place I'm playing second most times - if I'm facing a blue deck, I'm going DDD, and if I face anything else which starts with a creature, I'm Firestorming it, thus negating my opponent's board advantage. Things are quite nice with it (especially since I also have 3x Darkblast in the sb), though sometimes I play against combo and occasionally lose because I didn't decide to go first. Both cards are fine, but if I had to choose one to play maindeck, I'd play Firestorm, despite how much I hate it.
What? They are less vulnerable. Look at the list that won the GP: Flat out incapable of countering LED if you are on the play and Incapable of stopping land+LED if you are on the draw. Pefectly capable of misstepping your tireless tribe and wastelanding you out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I don't understand where you get your "facts" from.
Edit: and i would never cut firestorm, although I would consider playing darkblast in addition to it.
While true, that Bant list is kind of an oddity in it's absence of FoW. And while people may try it out, I have a strong doubt that "FoWless aggro control" decks are going to be the new norm just because one won the GP.
Still, you do have a point that land + LED is less susceptible to countermagic than tribes and pimps due to there being more counters that hit tribe and pimp.
Change topic:
Would this card from one of the Commander decks have a place in this deck:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...5&d=1307074177
Notice how it can target any player.
It's just another big dude. The deck already has GGT for that.
The last ability is irrelevant.
@dedicateddan
What do you think about the SB plan:
-1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp/Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Darkblast/Thug
This seems a better/safer plan and doesn't hurt the deck synergy as much as -4 Breakthrough, -1/2 Cabal Therapy
It lacks evasion, an ability to protect itself, and/or any way of making life difficult for your opponent other than swinging. Also it just dies if your graveyard goes away.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
You're right on all grounds except it's significantly bigger than Golgari Grave-Troll, protecting Golgari Grave-Troll when you're tapped out is pointless, and Golgari Grave-Troll goes away when your graveyard goes away too. Instead of immediate dismissal, this card is worth playtesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Now, if you want to argue that there are far better Dread Return targets that immediately end the game, by all means, please do because that would be a valid argument.
GGT doesn't die when your GY gets removed, he comes in with counters. I dont think this new card ends the game any faster than GGT as GGT usually comes in with a P/T ranging from 10-15 with 6+ 2/2 zombies. The secondary ability isnt important either. The Dredge lists now are all rather streamlined now (at least the non LED versions) so I dont know what to cut for it that wouldn't hurt a particular match up. It looks nice, but may only see play in something like Cephalid Breakfast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dune Echo
I didn't mean to say LED Dredge is more vulnerable to counterspells. I meant to say when LED faces a FoW/Daze, it's harder to recover. Often you just have LED as your discard outlet (but we're often going for DDD, so whatever). Still, I love LED :DQuote:
Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl
I've been playing arround with this list, and it's been pretty amazing:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Street Wraith
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dread Return
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ichorid
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (!)
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Street Wraith is awsome. Dredging EOT and feeding Ichorid on the slow role is simply awsome. Nature's Claim is fine, but the 4 life drawback sometimes is backbreaking... But I might switch back to Chain of Vapor (too bad New Phyrexia didn't give a free bouncer).
Hapless Researcher wasn't as good as I thought. He OFTEN cannot produce tokens by being sacrificed (as he's usually an early discard outlet), the third Street Wraith might take his position.
I've been reading some U/B Reanimator's thread and I found that Jin-Gitaxias to be very interesting. I took out the 4th Firestorm to test that guy. He just win games if unanswered (EPIC and disruption + EPIC dredging). BUT, it happened to be answered in all kinds in my playtesting... Still, i'll try him some more.
Any comments or criticism?
In wich MU would you board Jin? I can't see him being very usefull.
What i'd like to know is why running 3 icorid main and 1 SB and the same for DR. Why not 4-3 main?? In what cases do you side them in??
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl
where and when did you bring in serenity, how good was it for you? i mean it destroys affinity. anything else that it is good against?
Hmm, Ichorids aren't really used when you combo off fast with LED. That's why there's only 3 in MD. The 4th comes when you really need Ichorids (aka blue decks). Same for the 3rd Dread Return (usually board it in along with Iona and/or Elesh). I usually go for:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
-3 Breakthrough, -1 Hapless Researcher, -1 Flame-kin Zealot, -1 Woodfall Primus -> +3 Firestorm, +1 Ichorid, +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Dread Return against Merfolk.
-3 Breakthrough -> +1 Ichorid, +1 Dread Return, +1 Iona/Jin-Gitaxias against other blue/control decks.
About Jin-Gitaxias, he seems pretty fine against Storm and Merfolk (maybe Show and Tell), which runs few or no removal at all. Still, he often can live until your end step, dreding your whole library... If he stays until your opponent's endstep, it's pretty devastating. Still, he could just eat Swords to Plowshares in my testing :/
Vandalize, I really like the list you posted. Once I get my hands on a playset of LEDs I'll be trying that build out over the OP. Seems to have all the goodies that I'm looking for. How is your combo MU with that build? Do you not sideboard in any answers to GY hate like a Relic from Merfolk?
enchantress, land, MUD, Painted stone, any kind of enlightened tutor deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
Leyline of Sanctity protects you from Crypt/Ravenous Trap/Bojuka Bog. The Nature's Claim comes to fight Relic/Leyline of the Void. But if you're worried about Relic, just pack some Ancient Grudges as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by daugarten
Well, my combo MU is not bad. G1 is a race, whoever combo out first win (sometimes you can punch them into a AdN suicide). G2/G3 is a little better, you can side in Iona, Jin-Gitaxias and Leylines of Sanctity. Still, you need a fast clock.
What DR targets should be run in the board? I have an Iona, Realm Razor, Elesh Norn, Terastadon, Ancestors Chosen, and a Sadistic Hypnotist.
Mmm...this is not true. When you go off with led 3 or 4 ichorid do not make the different because you didn't change the quantity if dredgers. You can go with LED, coliseum, Gitaxian / Street wraith, draw anything, and then go off. Maybe i didn't understand properly your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
For the LEDless versions, what do you guys think of 3 or so Firestorms main? With the meta being so heavily influenced by MM it seems like an uncountable outlet allows us to play a little more aggressively game 1. Even against decks like Zoo, which don't run MM, firestorm kills their dude and still works as a good outlet. Plus, it frees up some sideboard slots. I was thinking of cutting some Pimps for them.
edit: a few more questions:
Why does FKZ seem to not be played at all in the LEDless versions but in the LED version it seems more popular? Is the 3rd citadel better than FKZ?
how does this seem for a board(I play 1 Elesh Norn maindeck as a DR target):
1 Angel of Despair
1 Terrastodon (Most unsure of this slot)
4 Firestorm (thinking of moving to main)
1 darkblast
1 ancient grudge
2 leyline of the void
1 Ichorid
4 leyline of sanctity
my plain with this board involves being a little more reactive.
Something like this:
vs Fish:
-2 Careful Study
-1 Breakthrough
-2 Cabal therapy
+4 Firestorm
+1 Ichorid
If I think they're running crypt not Relic:
-2 Careful Study
-4 Breakthrough
-3 Cabal therapy
+4 Firestorm
+1 Ichorid
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
I plain to be fairly reactive.
I'm fairly shaky on this board.
In the face of yard hate do you guys find yourself boarding out Breakthrough and playing a much slower game? Or do you just try to overwhelm them?
I wouldn't drop all my draw spells against merfolks, they are to fast for you to try to rush them with "draw step dredging" strategy. Try to balance what you side out.
Newbie question: Why doesnt Serum Powder play in legacy?
Decklist is too tight, and unlike vintage we don't play maindeck Leylines and, more importantly, we don't have bazaar. If Bazaar was legal in legacy, i could easily see runing Serum Powder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
That's exactly what I said. We don't need 4 Ichorids in G1, because you usually go off without them. The fourth Ichorid goes to sideboard to make space to a DR target (Woodfall Primus, in my case).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
When you need the 4th Ichorid, just board him in.
Great article by Matt Elias:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rix-Providence
I was playing dredge last weekend at a local tournament and went 1-2-1 and should have gone at least 2-1-1 if it weren't for some bad play mistakes. There's not much dredge at my local meta but it seems that everybody's packing at least 3 relic of progenitus in their sideboard and some even maindeck it. I've had a lot of scenarios where it's game 2 and I'm on the draw and my 7 card hand has something like a therapy, dredgerx2, land, discard outlet and other stuff that's not relevant. My opponent then goes land, relic, go. What would your plan be now if the opponent was playing something like merfolk/landstill? would you abandon the DDD plan and then try to stick a discard outlet or cast a careful study and see if they counter? Or is there some other plan that i'm just not seeing? I'm playing with the following sideboard if it makes a difference:
3 Winds of Change
3 Firestorm
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
1 Angel of Despair
I'm just frustrated that I'm losing to decks that only has 3 graveyard removal when usually it takes a lot more to beat a dredge deck.
Thats the reason why I dislike that sideboard plan. Against everything non-blue you obviously just stick the outlet first. Against something blue it gets tricky: since when you DDD they just tap relic to make you remove it, I would try a study before just running a discard outlet into a daze or MM. I have had many opponents that kept bad hands because it had 1 or 2 pieces of hate in it, or because it had sick ammounts of countermagic in it. If he has both it gets tricky, but that does not really change the gameplan. I really like grudges, I would not leave home without 4 of em in my sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
Please correct me if I'm wrong :)!
I'm new at playing dredge. I have read lots of articles about it, but I still have a problem in one specific type of games.
I don't know how I have to focus a game where I only can dredge one card per turn, because my oponent is cutting my draw spells, I haven't drawn them or for whatever reason.
When you only dredge once per turn, usually you don't put enough pressure to beat any opponent. Probably you only dredge one ichorid, a narco and a bridge and it isn't enought to beat almost none of the decks in this format. Your opponent can control you easely with a tarmogoyf + swords to ploshares and blow out all your threads.
Can anyone explain to me, how I have to focus this kind of games?
I'm new at playing dredge. I have read lots of articles about it, but I still have a problem in one specific type of games.
I don't know how I have to focus a game where I only can dredge one card per turn, because my oponent is cutting my draw spells, I haven't drawn them or for whatever reason.
When you only dredge once per turn, usually you don't put enough pressure to beat any opponent. Probably you only dredge one ichorid, a narco and a bridge and it isn't enought to beat almost none of the decks in this format. Your opponent can control you easely with a tarmogoyf + swords to ploshares and blow out all your threads.
Can anyone explain to me, how I have to focus this kind of games?
If you're playing against Control.dec just DDD and be happy. 1 Dredge per turn is fine, since they don't have an actual clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by xikitins
If you're playing some Tempo.dec like TA or Threshold, you should go for Cabal Therapy. If the worst happen (they counter your Cabal Therapy and Wasteland your land), you can just go back to DDD. Beware that TA might run Leyline of the Void, which makes things hard.
If you're playing anything non-blue, just go for it. Rock/Deadguy Ale have a lot of discard spells, which we don't give a fuck about (it's actually some help), just be careful with Swords to Plowshares... We have a really faster clock.
Uh, Editing this post because I wanted to avoid double posting:
Just updated my LED Dredge into a list that makes me very confortable:
Lands [11]
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
Dredgers [11]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
Creatures [16]
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Street Wraith
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-kin Zealot
Spells [22]
4 Bridge From Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dread Return
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
1 Dread Return
Cut the MD Hapless Researcher because he sucks (always did). Added the 3rd Street Wraith on his spot (useful when you board the 4th Ichorid)... Also gave up on Firestorms... They usually lead me to poor mulligan decisions that cost me several games, and it's not a "OMG H4XZ0R SWEEPER". Didn't regret it so far. Just added back the usual anti-Graveyard-Hate... I was missing my Grudges so badly (I was pretty sad when I lost to a single Relic of Progenitus) :(
Perhaps those Grudges should be Pithing Needle... Pernicious Deed, AEther Vial and Stoneforge Mystic are really popular nowdays. Still, the grudges are doing fine.