For what situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
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For what situation?Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
i was working my sideboard tech for my (wish) list post NPH and i came up with these 2:
Control Meta:
4 leyline of lifeforce
2 krosan grip
2 beast within
1 faerie macabre
1 bojuka bog
1 gaea's cradle
1 emrakul
1 regal force
1 joraga warcaller
1 phyrexian metamorph
Combo meta:
4 thorn of amethyst
2 krosan grip
2 beast within
1 faerie macabre
1 bojuka bog
1 gaea's cradle
1 emrakul
1 regal force
1 joraga warcaller
1 phyrexian metamorph
I change the leylines with thorns in a heavy combo meta.
only thing that worries me is that i cut viridian zealot from the side
and i play 1 in the main (to fetch with the tutors)
since i added 2 beast withins.
Maybe i swap joraga warcaller and bring him mainboard and put viridian zealot to sideboard?
I added phyrexian metamorph as a progenitus-emrakul-jitte answer and an answer to
random things that can happen.Ii think it deserves a slot.
Tell me what u think.
PS My list is similar to IBA's and David Yo's that toped4 scg Atlanta
i play 4 priests and 4 elvish arcdruid that means i have an alternative to glimpse and a strong aggro plan
and thanks to archdruid i can survive eng plagues.
Visionary is not cuttable. Do you know how much it increases your chances of not fizzling if you cast/tutor for as many of them as possible while comboing? The difference in the % of finished combos is not even close.
It is better to tutor for 1 visionary and from then on for wirewoods, because they give us even 3 cards instead of 2 and might be bigger manafixers if we have an active lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Indeed catmint after 1st visionary its better to tutor for wirewoods but that does not make the visionaries cuttable.
We need at least 3 visonaries.but tbh 4 is the way to go because we dont have better options either way
Visionaries let you activate heritage right when they come into play, if you tutor for a wirewood you need to play the wirewood, then bounce the visionary and then replay it, meaning you need to have 3 mana available instead of 2. When you are just starting to combo, especially if you have one nettle in play, it is very frequent that you will be able to continue comboing if you get a visionary since you have one spare mana, but do not have two spare mana to make the symbiote play.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
This makes absolutely no sense. You're telling me that you absolutely need to go through 4 wirewoods and 4 elvish visionaries to not fizzle? WTF? Since you seem to have these magical numbers somewhere, can you also tell me the percentage of times you fizzle if you only go through 3 of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Provide some arguements because there's Definetly always options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrix
Again nothing wrong with them combo turn. But iafter 3 casted there is absolutely no way you're fizzling., I don't see the use of the 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
My point is not that you have to cast all 4. My point is that when you start the combo it makes an unbelievable difference whether or not you can cast a visionary to get over the first hump. Because of this, running 4 is optimal so that you can maximize the chances that you will have one in your hand in order to blast through the combo start. Casting as many as you can is usually a good idea, but I am not saying we should run 4 because you need to cast all 4, I am saying that we should run 4 to have the biggest chance of being able to cast 1 early on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
It's actually the opposite. Visionaries help you set up the combo turn. The best turn 2 play with a slow hand is to cycle Visionaries. In most situations infact it's better to just cycle Visionary than try to jam out a bunch of Elves; and setup a large combo turn. Playing out other key components earlier (heritage, Nettle) will leave them open to removal. This is of course different when Symbiote is also available. It's actually even better when you have Symbiote and Visionary prior to comboing off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
The few times I ever ran less than 4 Visionary was in k2thej's stream-lined list which ran enough 1drops to continue powering through a single Glimpse. Even then it felt like I wasn't drawing enough cards.
The other time was in Survival Elves, but that had a much more consistent engine.
Serious question, then; if Visionary is one of your best cards going off, and it's worth running Pact over GSZ for its utility when comboing, why don't you run any copies of Multani's Acolyte to increase the number of Visionaries you draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Because of the reasons Ruckus just posted. Visionaries other huge advantage is being able to play them on turn two, get an extra card, and up the elf count to combo the following turn. I've tested Acolyte before and while I was really excited about how it looked in theory, it just didn't work out in testing because of the echo.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
On top of that, 4 Visionaries is a good number because you don't really ever get them in situations when you don't want them, such as when you are treading water mana-wise during a combo and need to keep seeing one drops to make it work. 4 has proved to be the perfect number, at least for my play style.
If they ever printed a cantrip one drop elf....oh man.
You orginally posted tutoring for them during combo turn, and thats what i was arguing against. Obviously casting them on turn 2 or as one of the first cards after glimpse is great, its just a hand with more than one is extremely slow and weak, and often to get over that "hump" youd rather have a 1 mana elf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
Ya when comboing if you don't have one, pacting for one is a really good move. That would be what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
Well pacting for them makes the amount you have in your deck irrelevant haha :) But yeah I pact for one after a glimpse often as well, especially if symbiotes out.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
If you run 3 then you have 4 chances with pact, if you run 4 you have 8. It's not irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
How did you go from run 3 = 4 to run 4 = 8 ??Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Did you mean with pact if you run 3 visionaries you have 7 chances but if you run 4 visionaries you have 8 chances?
yaQuote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
I dont agree K2. Visionary used to be one of my favourite T2 play when I used your list, but now that I have 4 titania/4archduid I am able to setup a turn 3 win even without glimpse in hand, because it is so easy to cast a regal force with an active manalord. Test how often you win the game in turn 3 when you play turn 2 visionary as opposed to archdruid...
Your argument that visionary is so important to keep the combo going is just not right. I can provide goldfish results of starting and finishing more than 95% of the time with my list that runs only 2 visionaries.
Anyway I think there are more imporant things we can argue about.
I went to a local tournament and came out 7th (3 – 2) with 25 people in.
There were some good tier decks in the field except for storm but also some homemade/bad ones, so my aim was Top 4.
I was lacking 1 priest of titania and played only 12 forest and 1 cradle, which is probably not enough in real life. I had to take mulligan so many times because of 0 lands.
Here the list:
Creatures
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Priest of Titania
2 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Viridian Zealot
Instants
4 Summoner's Pact
Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Basic Lands
12 Forest
Legendary Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
SB
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Heritage Druid
1 Regal Force
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
1 Terastodon
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
1. vs. MUD: 2:0
G1: I win the dice and go off undistrupted in Turn 3
G2: he has 2nd turn metalworker, but I manage to play a lot of elves + archdruid + zealot to destroy his metalworker and went off turn 3.
2. Vs. UWB Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas : 2:1
(Affinity like list with slower clock but path to exile, ethersworn canonist MD and thoughtseize SB )
G1: He has 1st turn canonist. A very long game where he as Tezzeret out there to keep bombs coming. I manage to get 2 archdruid and a zealot for canonist .He has another canonist and kills me aggro.
G2: He keeps a bad hand but distrupts my T2 glimpse with a path to exile. I combo off again next turn.
G3: He starts with Mox diamond, land canonist. He follows up with toughtseize taking one of 2 pacts instead of wirewood symbiote and plays pithing needle for viridian zealot. I pact for the sided in viridian shaman and combo off 1 turn later casting 2 regal force with an active archdruid.
3. vs. dredge 1:2
G1: He won the dice and had a supreme hand. Played 2 cabal on turn 2 and returned a dude to destroy a land for a turn 3 win.
G2: I combo turn 2 for superior board and a turn 3 win.
G3: had to take mulligan and kept a hand with 4 forest and 2 priest of titania.
His hand is also slow, but he uses darkblast and cabal to disrupt me and got there faster than I did.
4. vs. red staxx. 1:2
G1: Mulligan to 4. Early trinisphere + lodestone golem with umezawa's jitte .
G2: He has another early trinisphere followed by lodestone golem to slow me down a lot.
Luckily I only draw lands and have 2 grip in my hands and a tutor for viridian shaman.
Finally it was so close. I grip trinisphere and golem but he also had 2 phyrexian revoker for my titania to hold me back, 1 etched champion to get me to 1 life + a ratchet bomb on 1 and a ratchet bomb on 2 as combo insurance. I have glimpse, quirion, visionary, nettle, pact in hand. I glimse and pact for heritage hoping that he would sac the ratchet bomb in response to me taking 3 mana. He did and I manage to find another one for the win.
G3: All the fight for nothing he starts with ancient tomb, spirit guide for trinishpere followed by 2 stone rain, lodestone golem and jitte.
5. vs a strange black deck someone tried out: 2:0
Played funny tech with buried alive and Demigod of Revenge and also hatred altough i did not see anything.
Basically watched me in my t2-3 wins. Only disruption 1 small pox in turn 2 where I already had 4 elves out.
His deck is probably not complete crap, because he beat my buddy 2:1 who is an experienced player and had a "fully equiped" UBR counter-top/painted stone list.
My findings:
Combo off with pact was very strong and saved my ass in ~2 games where GSZ would not.
Without pact I think the dredge matchup would be have been even worse.
I never died to pact, but it was close 2 times.
-> still a fan of pact over GSZ!
I will move back to 13 forest and see if I have less mulligans next time.
Imo bring 13-14 forests and put the gaea's cradle on the sideboard.
Do you really need it mainboarD?u have no way getting it.
But with living wish u have it when u need it to fuel pact(regal) living wish or GSZ.
I think running pact and GSZ is correct after playing them, dying from pact is not a real concern. I ran 4 Priest/4 Archdruid for a while but found drawing more than 1 archdruid was rly bad and am probably gonna start cutting them until i fiind a number im confortable with but i for sure want at least 1 in the deck and am gonna stick with 4 priest because that card is ridiculous
Although probably nobody cares, I (the buddy) did not loose to this guy, in fact I went 2-0 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
His deck was actually something like pox without pox, he had some good stuff like hymn/smallpox/ghastly demise and buried alive - bloodghast, at least that's what I saw.
Btw, congrats on your finish and the nice trades ;)
absoflutelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Astrix
Thanks, that sounds right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrix
I had cradle in maindeck, because I liked it as a random draw to help and I did not want to use a SB spot for it. I guess that I havent really considered how useful it can be to access cradle with wish. You have to be more careful with your land drops while comboing off I think.
Can you describe some typical situations where you wish for cradle.
Turn 2 Wish for Cradle
Turn 3 Glimpse, Go off.
Turn 3 Go off (w/o making your land drop), use Living Wish to grab Cradle and recover tons of mana to continue combo off.
Turn 2 Living Wish (off Manaelf+Forest) for Cradle, play Cradle and cast another 1 drop to setup for turn 3 combo.
I very rarely like to expose Cradle to Wasteland, so I'm more inclined to wait until I can use it profitably, rather than use it as a land drop.
Hey guys after several hours of playtesting this afternoon my deck is looking like this:
14 Forest
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Living Wish
SB:
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Champion
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
4 x
Some Thoughts:
I tried zenith, I really did, trying to keep all bias out of it. It was always inferior to pact except for the turn 2 priest of titania. The fact that it doesnt interact with glimpse, doesnt interact with joraga warcaller (actually came up a lot), doesnt untap nettles until AFTER you dump the mana, and costs an extra mana overall (also a big issue when initialy starting the combo) far outweighs pacts 4 mana upkeep. The only time the 4 mana upkeep is an issue (assuming you dont pact turns 1 or 2 ever) is when you get your board swept, in which case youve lost regardless.
The elvish archdruids were extremely dead in multiples, it wasnt always possible to cast them on turn 2 and thus they were completely dead on what is probably our most critical turn, and in general far inferior to priests except when going aggro, thus I left in one of them as a tutor target.
Running 4 priests of titania and 1 archdruid makes untap effects far stronger, thus I upped the count of quirion rangers to 4 and would love to find a way to fit in a 4th symbiote.
Priests were nuts when drawn in opening hand, and let turn 3 combos occur with no issue.
Living wish should almost always be cast for cradle so that you dont 2 for 1 yourself if they decide to save their counter. This also leads to the point that you have to be beyond careful when dropping land drops willy nilly. If you can do something by tapping elves instead of using a land, its probably smarter to do so, especially once misstep gets printed and predictably daze will be used less (so you wont have to keep mana open). You never know when youll stumble upon living wish, may it be next turn or during your current glimpse turn, so it seems that the right play will generally be to cast land drops at the end of your turns. Another great point to living wish is the second regal force in the sideboard, as there are times when you draw zero glimpses from regal but happen to draw a living wish.
Also, as we force more and more two and three mana cards in this deck, or people running 8! tutors (GSZ and pact), the further we go to completely hampering any chances of being able to go over the starting hurdle when casting glimpse. If you are running 8 tutors and 4 elvish archdruids and 4 priests of titania, your win con basically stops becoming a win con, and more a jam your hand and hope your oponnent doesnt do anything after you inevitably fizzle and have to pass the turn.
ANYWAYS I hope some of that made sense, as I was mostly rambling and spewing thoughts that came into my head as I was writing. As I was playing I had a lot more on my mind to write about, so Im sure that more ideas will come so Ill edit them in when they do.
EDIT: To the people that are taking out the core of the deck and throwing it in the sideboard, dont. When you cast living wish for a one mana creature, youre basically telling your oponnent the exact weaknesses of your current hand, and the exact creature(s) they should kill/counter/look out for etc. Not to mention casting living wish simply to get a one mana creature basically slows you down by an entire turn at the least.
I had the same thoughts when i was goldfishing why everyone plays elvish archdruid.
It made no sense to me.an elf with 3 mana? wtf...
But then i realise.To be honest elvish archdruid is the best card in the deck.
Its the one and only card that fullfills both the combo and aggro roles of this unique deck (aggro-combo archetype)
In real games with real people it's the perfect card.
You realise our elves are 1/1 ? Do you? 1/1s! They have no chance in real battle.U realise with engineered plague which is the
most common sideboard card vs tribal decks we basically scoop without him?
Instead with archdruid we have another way of making tons of mana and fueling -emrakul regal etc.
and the only way of aggro combat.
And when we , as you say, fizzle during combo, look at the board again and see.We have 12 elves and 2 arcdruids.thats 12x3/3
we have not really fizzled.its the 3rd turn of our opponent and even with plague he is dead...
If i cant persuade you just see David Yo's scg atlanta tournament who toped 4 in a real high level tourney
and lost only to a hatfield borther at the semi finals playing high tide due to a summoner's pact trigger he forgot.
David played a superfast list with 4 elvish archdruids in a deck with 11 forests Yes he played 4 arcdruids in a deck with 11 forests...
PS and about the 3 casting cost dont forget we have elvish spirit guides to play him turn 2 and be resilient to engineered plague and still combo off turn 3
Why not cut the Zealot and add a 4th wirewood? You have Artifact hate in your sideboard, that can be wished for so that should be enough. Or does your meta need the extra hate?. Also I find 13 forests to be enough and instead having 4th Llanowar to be nice. I run a third Birchlore instead of the archdruid. I completely agree with you on what you said about Archdruid that's why I run zero of them MD. I do keep 1 in my SB though. How often do you use the Archdruid as a lord? I am considering moving one MD since everyone else seems to think it's really good. Otherwise your decklist is the same as mine.
I really do think we need to up the consideration of playing against live opponents vs. goldfishing. I don't care if a deck has the fastest goldfish in the game if it's a glass cannon, I want something that can fight off removal and disruption, and have a solid plan B even then.
@ Archdruid.
I just got home from a local tourney. I went undefeated with a budget version of IBA's list (no G.Cradle). The Archdruid's won me a match against an opponent who kept shutting down my Living Wishes, forcing me to go aggro and race his Goyfs. In another match, E.Plagues out of the SB couldn't stop my green men. Anecdotal evidence, I know. But I <3's my Archdruids.
First off, all of my opinions were formed from testing with a buddy, not goldfishing.
@ Astrix
I have seen David Vo's list, infact Ive went through and seen every elves top 8/16 list from the past 3 months. Theres things like vengevine and brainstorm that get top 8s as well, one single top 8 is not enough of a convincing arguement for me. Also if you saw my list youd see that I ran 0 ESGs, as I fully disagree on a one card tradeoff for one mana, but thats another topic. Not to mention he doesnt running living wish at all, thus the amount of virtual copies of lords being fairly identical.
@ Neil
The zealots been great as it basically increases artifact hate from 3 cards in the deck to 7 in my case since you can now pact for the hate. 13v14 forests is obviously debatable and would probs depend more than anything on the list, and Ive never tested less land, but I will say that going turn 1 manowar then turn 2 no land drop is frustrating.
@bakofried
As i said these opinions werent from goldfishing, nor is my list FOR goldfishing (aka 0 ESGs). A glass cannon WOULD be a list that runs 11 lands and ESG's. Not one with 14 land, half the sideboard being a wishboard (and can possibly be more), and 0 ESG's. If a list top 4's with no wishboard, then I would disagree that my list + wishboard is a glass cannon or one trick pony etc. The plan B aggro works just fine by tutoring for archdruid as your first lord and after that either comboing or finishing up the aggro route with warcaller.
The first scenario is extremely broad but for the second scenario when you are playing against a deck that you know either for sure runs E.Plague or can run E.Plague then one of your first targets with a tutor should be a lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Could we get a tournament report?
@Atikin
I think you need to shift your thinking concerning ESG. I haven't been unhappy with it, especially since you can use it as "Counter target Daze." Also, a 2/2 body isn't one to slouch at in a deck of 1/1s. Also, can you tell me what decks you're testing against? That information is helpful.
Most of it was against his bant deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
Could you be a wee bit more specific? There's CounterTop Bant, New Horizons, Stoneforge Bant Aggro, etc, etc. I'd just like to know what kind of disruption you're facing.
@Atikin
1 David Yo did not top4 an fnm or local tourney:P
2 4 elvish arcdruids are not because u find one and go aggro plan.(u said u want to tutor and u know its not the same-manawise and losing the tutor)
4 elvish arcdruids are a force because u have along with 4 priests of titania another solid way of playing regal -emrakul(aka another plan instead of grlimspe) and because elvish arcdruids bythemselves are good in multiples without even glimpse or tutors.(thats the stronger aggro plan)
3 u dont have to play ESG to have archdruids(but i would suggest esg either way)
PS about that brainstorm fauna shaman -vengevine thing.i think we can all agree thats more like a survi-vine style deck and not a pure combo elves deck .its more like a hybrid...
No stoneforges or CB's, 4 FOW 4 spell snare 4 daze 4 swords in maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
That seems pretty light on disruption that can actually hurt us. Spell Snare can hit critical cards, but it doesn't stop the glimpse plan, or swarming with Lords. I just don't know if that's a rough MU for any version of Elf-Combo.
Didnt have much choice when choosing what to playtest against :/Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
I'm not decrying you for it. Playing against live opponents is always better than goldfishing; it's just that I'm trying to gauge how your data effects this deck. I just think that's an already positve MU. Good on you for having a testing partner, period, but the data isn't ideal for what I'm trying to do.
Irregardless if I was playing a deck where I wasnt forced to go aggro as much as I might have to in a real meta, the rest of my points should be fairly valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried