Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Just so everybody knows:

Them killing your Rest in Peace is indeed a 1:1 trade. However, they then immediately make you discard, or wasteland you, or cast a threat you have to counter, still netting the 2:1.

The card is and always has been high-risk, high-reward.

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This is the main problem. They just make you discard/wasteland before you can find and recast another RIP. Abrupt Decay makes RIP very hard to defend. The existence of Abrupt Decay alone IMO makes this combo pretty fragile. I've also been retooling my SB against Jund. After some discussion with a sparring partner (Rezaa), moat/humility seems the best way to combat Jund. Jund is one of the few decks (like Goblins) that can out attrition UW Miracles. Moat/Humility & especially Moat + Humility shuts down Jund and Goblins. They're both out of decay range which is fantastic. I'm playing 2 Etutor + 1 Moat/ 1 Humility in the board right now for these 2 matchups. Also I play 3 MD Mishras + SFM package so they work well with Humility. A Batterskull with Humility on the table is just obscene.

Btw does Cascade trigger on Bloodbraid Elf under humility? Its not a ETB ability, so it's a little confusing.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Btw does Cascade trigger on Bloodbraid Elf under humility? Its not a ETB ability, so it's a little confusing.

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Cascade triggers when the spell is cast. Humility doesn't impact creature spells on the stack, so cascade will still trigger (as will Ulamog's destroy trigger, etc.).

I've had quite some success with Andrew Ohlschwager's list from he gp. I win 80% ofthe games i play, but that's online or against friends without time limit. I ask myself how he got into top 8. I can't seem to finish a game without going longerthan an hour. IRL i think i'd never get to game 3 and i'm a pretty fast player.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

I've had quite some success with Andrew Ohlschwager's list from he gp. I win 80% ofthe games i play, but that's online or against friends without time limit. I ask myself how he got into top 8. I can't seem to finish a game without going longerthan an hour. IRL i think i'd never get to game 3 and i'm a pretty fast player.

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Want to post the list for us lazy assholes who don't want to scour the internet for a list?

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Want to post the list for us lazy assholes who don't want to scour the internet for a list?

-Matt

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here :

22 LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
3 Tundra
3 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
1 Dust Bowl
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island

2 CREATURES
2 Stoneforge Mystic

18 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Enlightened Tutor

18 OTHER SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Rest in Peace
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
2 Energy Field
1 Detention Sphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
1 Spell Pierce
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
1 Blood Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Not a big blood moon fan in those kind of decks, but I guess I can give it a try after all in my blade deck. Also, would you guys go for 2 or 3 blasts in sideboard?

"I win 80% of the games I play" is not a good argument for a deck. I win 80% of the games I play as long as I have a competitive deck, but that doesn't mean the deck is 80% vs. the field (or anything), nor does it mean I will still win that much at a large event.

When a deck is 80% against the field, it's called Flash Hulk.

-Matt

Oh sorry, Did i forget to mention my RIP helm deck had a flash/hulk package?
I meant, i win 80% of the games i play on cockatrice. It's on cockatrice. It's not 80% against the whole meta. Just the matches in my testing. Sorry if i expressed myself wrong, but i thought i said "when i play against my friends or on cockatrice". All that to say that my win percentage with the deck is very high and it feels very strong, but the timer will always be between 00:50 and 1:30. I just can't seem to close games early enough. I'm not saying it's the ultimate decklist. I'm just sharing the fact that i am quite succesfull with it and it may be a good starting point. I have tested against bug a good amount of time and the matchup, while more difficult than others, is quite good it seems. The BUG control list's card advantage can be problematic though if they flip some ancestral visions. RIP is a big problem for them, so they have to answer, Blood moon is something they have to answer immediately, Counterbalance is a card they will always abrupt decay, top makes you more resistant to discard, They can't get rid of helm, can't get rid of batterskull... enough weapons to fight them.
The deck has a good load of wincons, while you are the reactive deck, your opponent has to be able to answer your powerfull plays all the time or they just get locked out. At first i didn't really appreciate the deck because it feels quite different. You don't really play as reactively as with a traditional control deck. You don't just sit back and dig for counters or removal all the time. While doing the previous you allso proactively force the one powerful permanent after the other onto your opponent till they eventually get cought. Then you finish them with a rapid helm, a sudden stream of angels, a germ token on steroids or the slow jace torture.

I actually enjoy blood moon in these lists. Sure if they fetch basics they can get past it. But when they see you are on miracles, they often don't fetch their basics and just go for their duals. If you then drop a surprise blood moon you ruin the day of all those greedy decks. And if they manage to escape from the blood moon, you gained a load of time and are probably already dominating. Ofcourse if you open a hand of nonbasics, the card suddenly sucks, but that shouldn't happen too often. The card just hands you some free wins, which i find enough reason to include at least 1 in your sideboard.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

All that to say that my win percentage with the deck is very very high, but the timer will always be between 00:50 and 1:30. I just can't seem to close games early enough.

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Most of the extra time this deck spends is using Top. I don't know the Cockatrice interface, but if it is as clunky as I might expect then an extra ~30 seconds every time you Top will really add up. That's not to say that it can't be a grindy deck at times, but you might want to rule out clunky interfaces by playing some paper games.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

Oh sorry, Did i forget to mention my RIP helm deck had a flash/hulk package?
I meant, i win 80% of the games i play on cockatrice. It's on cockatrice. It's not 80% against the whole meta. Just the matches in my testing. Sorry if i expressed myself wrong, but i thought i said "when i play against my friends or on cockatrice". All that to say that my win percentage with the deck is very high and it feels very strong, but the timer will always be between 00:50 and 1:30. I just can't seem to close games early enough. I'm not saying it's the ultimate decklist. I'm just sharing the fact that i am quite succesfull with it and it may be a good starting point. I have tested against bug a good amount of time and the matchup, while more difficult than others, is quite good it seems. The BUG control list's card advantage can be problematic though if they flip some ancestral visions. RIP is a big problem for them, so they have to answer, Blood moon is something they have to answer immediately, Counterbalance is a card they will always abrupt decay, top makes you more resistant to discard, They can't get rid of helm, can't get rid of batterskull... enough weapons to fight them.
The deck has a good load of wincons, while you are the reactive deck, your opponent has to be able to answer your powerfull plays all the time or they just get locked out. At first i didn't really appreciate the deck because it feels quite different. You don't really play as reactively as with a traditional control deck. You don't just sit back and dig for counters or removal all the time. While doing the previous you allso proactively force the one powerful permanent after the other onto your opponent till they eventually get cought. Then you finish them with a rapid helm, a sudden stream of angels, a germ token on steroids or the slow jace torture.

I actually enjoy blood moon in these lists. Sure if they fetch basics they can get past it. But when they see you are on miracles, they often don't fetch their basics and just go for their duals. If you then drop a surprise blood moon you ruin the day of all those greedy decks. And if they manage to escape from the blood moon, you gained a load of time and are probably already dominating. Ofcourse if you open a hand of nonbasics, the card suddenly sucks, but that shouldn't happen too often. The card just hands you some free wins, which i find enough reason to include at least 1 in your sideboard.

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Im playing the same list.... The first two days, I won some games (about 10), and only losed one or two. Not bad with a new deck in my hands. In the later days, I losed more than winned. I noticed that the deck has many dead cards in hand, like rest in peace vs show and tell, or another combo piece (Rest in peace, helm, and especially the energy field).

The deck, is a beast vs all decks that have a great use of the graveyard (prinpally BUG), but I feel some weak against combo and control (mainly for the dead cards in hand).

Maybe can you explain how yo sideboard against the main meta???? I would be helpful... Thanks:tongue:

Hi guys long time lurker first time poster




Just want to share my playtesting today with a friend; I'm on UWr Miracle and him on Jund. I heard that Miracle has a bad match-up against Jund but won 2 straight games 1st was off jace ulti and the second games was with entreat for 2. The game didn't went to the length and didn't drew CB on both games but hold off the board with terminus and counters.




My list is:




[DECK]
2 vendillion clique




1 enlightened tutor
2 counterspell
2 spell pierce
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares




1 supreme verdict
2 entreat the angels
3 terminus




4 counterbalance
1 detention sphere




4 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives




4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 karakas
2 glacial fortress
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 plains
4 island




Sideboard:
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 vendillion clique
1 flusterstorm
1 terminus
1 humility
1 porphery node
1 disenchant
2 rest in peace
1 relic of progenitus
1 engineered explosives
1 tormod's crypt
1 mountain[/DECK]

Want to know how are guys fairing against jund and thoughts how you guys operate against it. Thanks

has anyone had any success with an esper list splashing black for discard? i feel discarding abrupt decay could be a good way to keep counterbalance around.

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Originally Posted by lemariont

Im playing the same list.... The first two days, I won some games (about 10), and only losed one or two. Not bad with a new deck in my hands. In the later days, I losed more than winned. I noticed that the deck has many dead cards in hand, like rest in peace vs show and tell, or another combo piece (Rest in peace, helm, and especially the energy field).

The deck, is a beast vs all decks that have a great use of the graveyard (prinpally BUG), but I feel some weak against combo and control (mainly for the dead cards in hand).

Maybe can you explain how yo sideboard against the main meta???? I would be helpful... Thanks:tongue:

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It's true some cards are dead in some matchups although it's rare. Against decks who don't rely on graveyard at all like goblins or merfolk, rip is still an enabler for energy field or the helm combo. RIP is only dead against the miracle mirror, esperblade is affected by RIP as they can't play the agressive roll that easily anymore. Their snapcasters don't do anything good anymorea and their lingering souls can't be flashbacked.

Sideboarding isn't really difficult. I just use Andrew's sideboard. All you have to do is take out what's dead, and put in what is good. For example, against Snt RIP isn't good so you side those out, energy field too and helm too. You replace those with everything that is good against SnT. Clique, REB, mindbreak trap extra counters etc...
Against storm you can leave a RIP or 2 in because it disables their PiF win but apart from that it's basicly the same, you board out everything that is bad, in other words everything that is unneeded or too slow: removal and eventually jaces.
fo agressive decks like merfolk, zoo, goblins you board out counters for more removal. Supreme verdict, path to exile, an extra enlightened tutor to fetch RIP/energy field.
Against deck with black and discard spells like BUG or jund you board out forces because the card disadvantage is just too much. You add in an extra counterspell and spell pierce, eventually a REB or 2 for their jace and Ancestral visions. You mighwan the extra E-tutor in to fetch RIP. I don't remember exactly what i board out beyond the forces, i'm still figuring out what i can drop against them. Ofcourse blood moon is very good against all the 3c decks with greedy manabases.
I haven't played the mirror yet, but batterskull deffinitely is very strong. ofcourse you board in REB, counterspell, maybe a spell pierce.

I still have to figure out some things myself, i've just been testing this deck for 3 days now.

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Originally Posted by squee

has anyone had any success with an esper list splashing black for discard? i feel discarding abrupt decay could be a good way to keep counterbalance around.

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Your logic is questionable, but your direction is correct. I splash Black for discard in the SB and MD Lingering souls. I've never look back since. You should try them.

My justification is as the following: Counterbalance is too slow, it takes a while to set up, since you want to leave your Mana open. CB is ineffective without Top, randomly counter something is not consistent enough. Replacing CB with Souls, I can actually deal with a resolved Liliana, block Goyf... etc.

As to AMAbantau, playing 2 games against your friend is not representative of the match-up, and your friend has to have some tournament winning credentials, to make your post valid.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Your logic is questionable, but your direction is correct. I splash Black for discard in the SB and MD Lingering souls. I've never look back since. You should try them.

My justification is as the following: Counterbalance is too slow, it takes a while to set up, since you want to leave your Mana open. CB is ineffective without Top, randomly counter something is not consistent enough. Replacing CB with Souls, I can actually deal with a resolved Liliana, block Goyf... etc.

As to AMAbantau, playing 2 games against your friend is not representative of the match-up, and your friend has to have some tournament winning credentials, to make your post valid.

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Is there a list on one of these pages, or could you maybe post a list?

I have both jund and miracles separately built and preboard, the mu is 60%in junds favor. The main culprit is the discard and bbe. Discard makes it hard for you to keep any sort of smooth game plan. It rips your tops out of your hand. Takes out the terminus you were samdbagging etc. It's just highly disruptive. Your best end game cards, cards, counterbalance and jace, are not very effective against them. Counterbalance can be handled by decay,and jace is soft to bbe. Your best card is entreat. Liliana is also a major problem as her discard keeps your hand empty. Sandbagging miracles becomes very difficult. Also her ultimate is surprisingly easy to get to since you have nothing to knock down her loyalty. Since lands are your no1 resource, her ultimate really gets you.

I play factories for this reason. They help knock down walker loyalties. As well as being great with postboard humility.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I have both jund and miracles separately built and preboard, the mu is 60%in junds favor. The main culprit is the discard and bbe. Discard makes it hard for you to keep any sort of smooth game plan. It rips your tops out of your hand. Takes out the terminus you were samdbagging etc. It's just highly disruptive. Your best end game cards, cards, counterbalance and jace, are not very effective against them. Counterbalance can be handled by decay,and jace is soft to bbe. Your best card is entreat. Liliana is also a major problem as her discard keeps your hand empty. Sandbagging miracles becomes very difficult. Also her ultimate is surprisingly easy to get to since you have nothing to knock down her loyalty. Since lands are your no1 resource, her ultimate really gets you.

I play factories for this reason. They help knock down walker loyalties. As well as being great with postboard humility.

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how many factories do you play? and don't you sometimes have issues with the manabase?

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Originally Posted by squee

has anyone had any success with an esper list splashing black for discard? i feel discarding abrupt decay could be a good way to keep counterbalance around.

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Yes. My black splash, however, is not primariliy about discard (just in the sb vs combo etc), but for Vindicate. I was looking for a replacement of Detention Sphere, which just doesn't stick against Abrupt Decay. Vindicate handles planeswalkers reliably, can work as a universal removal against random junk, and it fits the curve perfectly.

My list:

//Lands
4 x Tundra
1 x Underground Sea
1 x Scrubland
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Polluted Delta
1 x Marsh Flats
1 x Glacial Fortress
4 x Snow-Covered Island
2 x Snow-Covered Plains
1 x Snow-Covered Swamp

//Let's see what I find
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Snapcaster Mage

//No, you can't
4 x Force of Will
3 x Counterspell
3 x Spell Pierce
3 x Counterbalance

//Put that away
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Terminus
3 x Vindicate

//I annoy you until you're dead
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 x Entreat the Angels

//Sideboard
1 x Terminus
4 x Rest in Peace
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Hydroblast
2 x Blue Elemental Blast
3 x Duress
2 x Misdirection

About the sideboard:
- Terminus: to complete the playset
- Rest in Peace: vs Dredge/Canadian/Reanimator/Deathrite Shaman/Recursion Engines
- Surgical Extraction: more graveyard hate, can also be used vs combo
- Hydroblasts/BEBs: vs Goblins/Burn/Jund/Sneak Attack
- Duress: vs combo and control
- Misdirection: vs control and Abrupt Decay


I won a small local tournament with it (12 Players, proxies allowed, not santioned). I played against...
Match 1 Goblins (2:1)
Match 2 Maverick (2:0)
Match 3 Sneak &Tell (2:0)
Match 4 BG Suicide-Tendrils (2:1)

The meta looked like this:
1 (12 pts) UWb-Miracle
2 (9 pts) Sneak & Tell
3 (9 pts) Maverick
4 (7 pts) Suicide-Tendrils
5 (7 pts) Jund
6 (6 pts) Goblins
7 (6 pts) Infect
8 (6 pts) R-Artifact-Aggro
9 (3 pts) UR-Polymorph
10 (3 pts) Eva Green
11 (3 pts) Jund
12 (0 pts) GW-Tokens

All in all, I am still very happy with the list, except for the two Misdirections, which performed underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

how many factories do you play? and don't you sometimes have issues with the manabase?

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3 Factories. No wastelands, no splashes. So no colour problems here.

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Originally Posted by Taurelin

Yes. My black splash, however, is not primariliy about discard (just in the sb vs combo etc), but for Vindicate. I was looking for a replacement of Detention Sphere, which just doesn't stick against Abrupt Decay. Vindicate handles planeswalkers reliably, can work as a universal removal against random junk, and it fits the curve perfectly.
All in all, I am still very happy with the list, except for the two Misdirections, which performed underwhelming.

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I like your list. Misdirection is good, I would not ditch them. Have you considered EE + academy ruin? Or is Vindicate enough?

Thanks!

Yes, I have considered EE + Ruins, but not in this version. I can't see any slots for it in my list.

Anyway, there are two problems with EE.

a) EE gets better with more colors. However, the more colors you run, the more vulnerable you are to Wasteland. And Ruins don't help to strengthen your mana-base then.
b) EE serves a different function. It helps to get rid of all the small stuff, like tokens, small creatures and the like. For this purpose we have Terminus and other answers already. What we need is a solution vs planeswalkers and various other things. Here I like Vindicate better, since it's much more universal and hits targets with a higher CC, too.

This is my current 75. My meta consists of Jund, Esperblade, and various Delver decks.

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere

4 Sensei's Divining Top

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Misdirection

So far, I like the Red splash for REB and Blood Moon out of the board as they greatly hamper the various Ux Delver and BGx-greedy-manabase decks I see. In testing, I'm really starting to dislike Counterbalance and have considered moving it to the sideboard for the combo matchups and having more maindeck answers for the DRS/Abrupt Decay grindy decks that seems to be on the rise; I've been honestly considering just running 3-4 Lightning Bolt in place of Counterbalance as Bolt deals with Planeswalkers and more randomness than Counterbalance does. I'm sure others have had similar feelings about Counterbalance. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

This is my current 75. My meta consists of Jund, Esperblade, and various Delver decks.

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere

4 Sensei's Divining Top

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard:

3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Misdirection

So far, I like the Red splash for REB and Blood Moon out of the board as they greatly hamper the various Ux Delver and BGx-greedy-manabase decks I see. In testing, I'm really starting to dislike Counterbalance and have considered moving it to the sideboard for the combo matchups and having more maindeck answers for the DRS/Abrupt Decay grindy decks that seems to be on the rise; I've been honestly considering just running 3-4 Lightning Bolt in place of Counterbalance as Bolt deals with Planeswalkers and more randomness than Counterbalance does. I'm sure others have had similar feelings about Counterbalance. Thoughts?

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I think that counterbalance is still very good and should never be dropped below 3. IF you really want to replace it i feel it has to be replaced by something that can give you some CA. CB is currently our CA engine, and dropping it would leave us without any. I don't understand people's feeling against CB though. It's not because there are maindeck answers to it now that it's bad. It's still good against the rest of the field. And it's even good against bug if they don't directly have a decay for it.
If you really have too much BUG in your meta, i think you should try the more permanent oriented ersion posted above. With so many targets bug has to hit, you'll always stick one, which gives you a big advantage. The fact you have a lot of permanents also makes it easier to combat the discard, because you are not just 1-1'ing them all the time.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

I think that counterbalance is still very good and should never be dropped below 3. IF you really want to replace it i feel it has to be replaced by something that can give you some CA. CB is currently our CA engine, and dropping it would leave us without any. I don't understand people's feeling against CB though. It's not because there are maindeck answers to it now that it's bad. It's still good against the rest of the field. And it's even good against bug if they don't directly have a decay for it.
If you really have too much BUG in your meta, i think you should try the more permanent oriented ersion posted above. With so many targets bug has to hit, you'll always stick one, which gives you a big advantage. The fact you have a lot of permanents also makes it easier to combat the discard, because you are not just 1-1'ing them all the time.

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+1

I think the Counterbalance mindset has to go around CA for it to be appreciated, and not the soft-lock. Also, it probably has something to do with playstyle+meta for people to dislike it.

For me, once it counters one spell, that's already OK - the 2nd one (and onwards) it will hit is already awesome. If it gets decayed, just think of it as basically it hitting a "counterspell", still not a bad trade-off. Board it out when the match-up calls for it, but I think it still deserves the main deck slots -- at least three of them.

In the Miracle vs BUG match-up, Abrupted Decay has never been the focus, for me at the least.

The focus has always been Liliana. I Absolutely hate the following:
Turn 3 Deathrite shaman in play:
play Thoughtseize/Inquisition
play Liliana

The next focus is the dilemma between Dark Confidant and Deathrite shaman. When one of them hits play turn1/turn2, do you StP it ASAP? Say you do, BUG often just plays the other one. You might tell me DC means CA, so you should just save StP and allow DRS to stay on the board. However, the Mana acceleration from DRS is precisely why BUG can do the scenario I just described above.

Hence, my focus has been: how would Miracle defeat BUG once Liliana has resolved? That scenario has happened way too many times. I'm not a fan of fighting an uphill battle against her.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

In the Miracle vs BUG match-up, Abrupted Decay has never been the focus, for me at the least.

The focus has always been Liliana. I Absolutely hate the following:
Turn 3 Deathrite shaman in play:
play Thoughtseize/Inquisition
play Liliana

The next focus is the dilemma between Dark Confidant and Deathrite shaman. When one of them hits play turn1/turn2, do you StP it ASAP? Say you do, BUG often just plays the other one. You might tell me DC means CA, so you should just save StP and allow DRS to stay on the board. However, the Mana acceleration from DRS is precisely why BUG can do the scenario I just described above.

Hence, my focus has been: how would Miracle defeat BUG once Liliana has resolved? That scenario has happened way too many times. I'm not a fan of fighting an uphill battle against her.

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I usually get rid of confidants and deathrites immediately. Those cards give them the exact advantages someone needs to beat control. We have enough removal to deal with threats beyond those. In my experience, liliana isn't thàt devastating. When i played andrew's list i survived 3 ultimatums. Hwever that migt have been due to the high permanent count which makes her ultimate and her discard ability slightly worse. In my other encounters with liliana she had impact but again wasn't really backbreaking. To get rid of her i usually board in a clique or 2 to flash in at the end of the turn. I also have a 2nd detention sphere in the side to handle planeswalkers. Obviously i would say having strong topdecks in the side would help. I could see elspeth being very good against bug actually for that reason: being a strong topdeck which is able to kill planeswalkers.

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Originally Posted by Taurelin

All in all, I am still very happy with the list, except for the two Misdirections, which performed underwhelming.

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Try divert instead of misdirection because you are already running snapcasters. Misdirection is a 2 for 1 especially agianst jund and bug. :smile:

Sounds good.

At least it's the only card that functions similarly and has a reasonable casting cost. The downside is that especially BUG won't have too much trouble paying the 2 extra mana.

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Originally Posted by Abantau

Try divert instead of misdirection because you are already running snapcasters. Misdirection is a 2 for 1 especially agianst jund and bug. :smile:

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90% of the time Misdirection is a 2 for 2. (unless you hardcast it or misdirect a Hymn with them having 2+ cards in hand) / just my 2 pence ;)

Hi,

New to legacy, but I'm working on the last 2 cards I need for this deck. I have a few questions if anyone can answer:

1.) Venser? Seriously? Is this card not worse than a 4th copy of Jace?

2.) Divert or Misdirection? I've been playing Divert in UR Delver, and was happy with the card against BUG (until I decided it wasn't on the gameplan and cut it). The fact that they'll use their targeted discard turn 1 makes me only want to board it in on the play, though. I saw Joe Losset cut Force of Will for Misdirection, and I'm wondering if doing that post-board might be a good idea. I think I like the maindeck 4x Force of Will, though.

3.) I'm still having a hard time understanding how people run multiple copies of the Rest in Peace combo pieces, instead of Enlightened Tutor. I know ET makes you skip your draw step, but isn't 2x Enlighted Tutor/1x Counterbalance/1x Engineered Explosive, etc... stronger?

This is my rough draft, so far:

Lands [22]
6 Island
1 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
1 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain (Yeah, it's like that...)
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Karakas

Creatures/Planeswalkers [7]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Entreat the Angels

Disruption [21]
1 Energy Field
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Humility
1 Detention Sphere
1 Rest in Peace

Card Draw [10]
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Field
3 Misdirection
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterbalance
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest in Peace

Definitely appreciate any comments.

EDIT: Snapcaster's came out.

1 You are making the wrong comparison. Venser is not replacing the 4th Jace in my (and some other lists), it is replacing Detention Sphere. A solid argument can be made both ways, but I still like Venser myself.

2 Re-targeting effects are very good against some decks, and totally worthless against others. If you do decide to play any, I think Misdirection is far better than Divert.

3 Your ideas do not take into account that the enchantment could be destroyed. Also, in most versions playing RIP, the card is a combo with both Energy Field and Helm of Obediance, as well as a total hoser against some decks on its own. This justifies multiple copies I think.

Regarding your list, the issue that jumps out at me is the singleton Plains. If your sideboard Blood Moon is in play, you lock yourself out of casting Entreat.

Thanks for the feedback. The second basic plains became a Plateau when I put bolt in the sideboard; I didn't consider the Entreat problem. I see what you mean as far as having multiple copies of the enchantments as win conditions. I suppose I'm just coming at this from the angle that these are toolbox cards that are good by themselves and could incidentally win you the game. I guess I'll see if it works out for me.

Running less of the combo pieces and more enlightened tutor is worse. IT's card disadvantage, which is a huge deal. Also, if they answer one of the pieces your combo is ruined. Not only that but going via tutor is slower. You want multiple counterbalance so you consistenly draw them, you want more copies of rest in piece for the same reason. The additional copies are dead once one sticks but that's why we have to to keep those in our deck. The key to playing miracles well has always been in using you top/brainstorms correctly. If you play those correctly you won't have too much problems with the added copies.
I mean, when you play counterbalance, you want to play it as early as you can and you don't want to go T1 tutor into card disadvantage, and then drop your counterbalance.

With a good portion of the decks to beat now playing graveyard reliant creatures like Goyf, snappy, deathrite Shaman, and Nimble Mongoose how about we make a R.I.P/helm version with misheard Factories since the R.I.P acts like a 2 mana Humility against those decks. Of course the problem of wasteland still exist which the only way I see beatin is either main deck stifles or miser pithing needle in the main. Pithing needle seems good but adrupt decay kinda makes it irrevelant. Another idea I had was adding the standstills back in since legacy is really grindy right now and vial is no where to be seen. The rip version has a good mu against tribal anyway since they have no good outs to R.I.P/Field and terminus buys enough time to lock them out since it wipes through land destruction but the problem here is finding the room for a few standstills in the deck. If someone can help me incorporate these ideas into the deck or just tell me it's a bad idea it would be greatly appreciated.

I've played a little with RiP/Helm + Mishra's (x3). The factories give a little bit of value, keeping Bobs and random 1-2 power guys off the attack, protecting Jace, crashing in post-Terminus, punishing creature-less decks, etc. until they can find a Wasteland.

I think you have to forego the red splash to fit them. I ended up going with a red splash to get Blood Moon, but I may try the factories again instead. One downside is they turn non-Decay removal back on, such as Swprds and Bolts. If those decks are still prevalent in your meta, it may not be worth it.

With combo raising to punish the really greedy 3 color decks I think uw with a counterbalance focus would do well to punish the combo decks. We still need to make sure that we have a way to attrition bug and June out or at least just compete with them. Any suggestions for a build? This is kinda what I have in mind.

3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2. Elspeth, knight Errant
3. Rest In Peace
2. Energy Field
1. Enlightened Tutor
3. Swords to Plowshares
3. Terminus
3. Counterbalance
4. Sensei's Divining Top
4. Brainstorm
4. Force of Will
1. Helm of Obedience
1. Humility
2. Detention Sphere
3. Misdirection
2. Tundra
1. Karakas
4. Flooded Strand
3. Blue Fetches
2. White Fetches
2. Plains
3. Mishra's Factory
4. Island

This deck can lock out combo with counterbalance while beating with factory. It can lock out tribal with R.I.P/Energy and non tribal counterbalance top in play eot terminus and slam down jace is pretty much game. Midrange decks with decay are still the hard match ups hence the misdirection that act as a better for e against them since you can deny their card advantage and take it for yourself or protect your counterbalance from decay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jayman

With combo raising to punish the really greedy 3 color decks I think uw with a counterbalance focus would do well to punish the combo decks. We still need to make sure that we have a way to attrition bug and June out or at least just compete with them. Any suggestions for a build? This is kinda what I have in mind.

3. Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2. Elspeth, knight Errant
3. Rest In Peace
2. Energy Field
1. Enlightened Tutor
3. Swords to Plowshares
3. Terminus
3. Counterbalance
4. Sensei's Divining Top
4. Brainstorm
4. Force of Will
1. Helm of Obedience
1. Humility
2. Detention Sphere
3. Misdirection
2. Tundra
1. Karakas
4. Flooded Strand
3. Blue Fetches
2. White Fetches
2. Plains
3. Mishra's Factory
4. Island

This deck can lock out combo with counterbalance while beating with factory. It can lock out tribal with R.I.P/Energy and non tribal counterbalance top in play eot terminus and slam down jace is pretty much game. Midrange decks with decay are still the hard match ups hence the misdirection that act as a better for e against them since you can deny their card advantage and take it for yourself or protect your counterbalance from decay.

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I recently played against a Misdirection build, and man, that was annoying. Keep it up.

-Matt

I recently played a RIP/ Helm list to Top8 at SCG Atlanta. I was very happy with how the list performed, my loss in top8 was primarily due to my own fatigue. I'll post an update from my notes on that sometime later today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

I recently played a RIP/ Helm list to Top8 at SCG Atlanta. I was very happy with how the list performed, my loss in top8 was primarily due to my own fatigue. I'll post an update from my notes on that sometime later today.

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I'm interested in reading this report, what you played against, and what your thoughts on the archetype are right now.

Congrats!

I placed 3rd at a 36-man-local playing my good old UWr Miraclecontrol. Here's the list:
//Lands
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta (though I'd play Arid Mesa over Delta)
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
//Creatures
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
//Counterspells
3 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
//Filter
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
//Win
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Batterskull
//Sideboard
3 Sulfur Elemental
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace

I played the following:

1) 2-0 vs BGR NicFit
2) 2-0 vs Sneak Attack
3) 2-1 vs BGW Junk
4) 2-1 vs BUG Delver
5) ID
6) ID

Top8) 2-1 vs RUG Delver
Top4) 1-2 vs BUG Delver

I think that splashing the mystic package into the old Miracleshell while dropping Counterbalance is right. The only other way might be to overload on Decaytargets --> RIP/Helm. Batterskull provides an excellent stalling-tool vs BGx decks due to being undecayable. I lost to BUG Delver in the Top4 because I screwed one game, and on the other one I was running into a Daze... he was OtD... postboard... didn't expect that to happen... As of late I've been rocking a little morphboard, making it possible to board into WUR Aggroblade postboard, be it because you need to finish the game fast, or because you want to attack a different angle, both options are totally acceptable.

If you have any criticism or questions, feel free to answer.

Greetings