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Hello, I am new to the site but I have been playing Nic Fit all year. Haven't really had any real insight on working on my deck except for what I try play testing. I never seen any of these GBu and GBr versions. But my question is why did everyone abandoned the birthing pod version?
Edit: How good is the GBr version? I have most of the cards to make the change from GBw, just not sure if it's worth it.
GBr is putting up good results as of late, and choosing between it and GBw is a meta call. Red gives you more tools against aggro and the "oops I win" Scapeshift-Valakut combo, as well as red counters against blue combo from the board.
For myself, I took out Pod because it is was too slow and requires a delicate board set up. Too easily disrupted and not a lot of board impact.
Is the scapeshift combo really that good? It just seems somewhat slow... You have to hit some many lands, and your threats overall aren't very impressive.
There's a report on it a page or two back, plus discussion.
Here's something I've been experimenting with and developing with Arianhod's input; a more explosive variety of Nic Fit. This is a GB concept build that uses the raw power available in [card]Culling the Weak[/card] to give the deck an alternate method to not only kill Explorers but also power out incredible early plays off of Explorers, Wood Elves, and even Dryad Arbor. Late game Cullings are used to feed Oona.
4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Grave Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Living Death
2 Duress
2 Culling the Weak
This build uses Duress for additional targeted discard mainboard, but this could be Thoughtseize. I had 3x Hymn in place of Wood Elves, but made the switch and am still testing with it. Wood Elves plays well when you can GSZ T1 for Dryad Arbor and play Elves T2, which could then be Culled for 4 mana (need more 4 mana drops) or Culled on T3 for 8 mana to drop...whatever, really.
Primeval Titan drags out Maze of Ith and Karakas to help combat Show and Tell. Grave Titan for straight killing power. Oona for a mana sink.
Living Death works with Culling and other sac effects to clear the board, often acting as Damnations. Fleshbag Marauders help unbalance it.
Volrath's Stronghold acts as the Recurring Nightmare of the deck, although obviously slower.
This deck might not be what I'd take to a tournament right now, but offers up some alternative tech I've been thinking about. I've put some of this stuff into more traditional builds that need more refinement. I'm curious to see if it would benefit from more Cullings or discard.
Granted, I don't even know if this solves any problems the deck is currently having, but I figure it may be of use to someone around here.
Updated list, presuming I can obtain the SB cards (I still only own 1 windswept heath): Planning for tourney on Saturday, still tweaking to do. Added Karakas for presumed presence of sneak and show.
Creature (15)
1x Baneslayer Angel
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sun Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
Instant (3)
3x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
Planeswalker (3)
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
2x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Land (22)
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Marsh Flats
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
Sideboard (15)
1x Curse of Death's Hold
3x Extirpate
1x Humility
1x Perish
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Memoricide
2x Damnation
1x Ichneumon Druid
I really hate Garruk Relentless at this point and think he is terrible... Drop for like another Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse maybe? I personally want to try Big Garruk as a one of...
Here are my Ghent adventures, as promised. I didn't do well, but I still want to develop the deck, since I think it's really promising.
Obligatory Road Trip Story (and Disclaimer)
On Thursday afternoon, my throat became sore. That's usually the sign for an upcoming cold. We couldn't find an affordable hotel room, since the festival that was going on in Ghent caused the cheaper options to be fully booked weeks in advance. We had decided to camp - there was a campground 10 minutes from the venue. The GP is in July, it ought to be nice and warm, right?
We arrived at the campground and it was pouring. The tent meadow was like a Bayou enchanted by Evil Presence. Mud, rain, low temperatures, humidity - I could hear the cold-inducing germs cheering in my throat.
I'm just telling this to explain my obviously horrible performance, because I think it's not the deck's fault. My mind wasn't working properly, and everything is a little blurred in my memory. Fuck being sick at GPs.
(latest) DECKLIST
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Innocent Blood
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Baleful Strix
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Eternal Witness
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Fierce Empath
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB
1 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
3 Force of Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Leak
1 Scavenging Ooze
That's the list I ran on Sunday, and my GP list was pretty close to this. I can't remember the exact list, but it had roughly
+ Ghastly Demise
- Innocent Blood
SB
+ Tormods Crypt
- Jace TMS
Short Report
We arrived at 18:30 at the venue and I played one Grinder, since I was dead tired. I beat UR Delver despite whiffing on an early Therapy. In the second game, he played Ponder, but resolved the motions of a brainstorm (which he had also in hand, but mistakenly didn't put on the table.) I caught it, his face went to shock and he took a game loss, since there was no way to determine which cards in his hand were from the ponder. The Brainstorm was on top of his deck.
Next round, I got smashed by Dredge. Extirpate is good and well, but if you can't draw enough deeds and basically race them, you die to meager Putrid Imp / Narcomoeba / Ichorid Beats. (Note that not finding Deed soon enough / Dredge will become a repeating pattern. Also, the Crypt in the latest build was due to not being able to fight Dredge, but was poorly thought out. It was the only card I had with me.)
Main Event:
I prepared to face Maverick, RUG Delver and SnT/Reanimator.
Round One: Doomsday Combo.
Game 1, I therapied after he cracked a strand for basic Island, blindly calling Stoneforge. I saw a hand of Burning Wish, Silence, Orim's Chant, Dark Ritual etc. Figuring he was on a combo plan, I thought I'd take the fast Mana or the Wish on the Explorer backswing.
He drew, played land, Top, and passed. I played Explorer, flashbacked therapy, he Brainstormed in response, I whiffed. Then he Silenced me and killed me.
Game 2, I boarded in all the combo hate, but mulliganed a lot and died to Silence again, since I had only one Counter.
Round Two: RUG Delver.
First Game, I did what NFB does.
Second game, he had the Nuts.
Third game, I Therapied on the play, but he had Brainstorm. I mistakenly was afraid of Stifle, but he didn't even play it. In fact, no Delver player I watched or played against had Stifles. I died because he wastelanded my only blue source (Underground Sea) and could not find a third land.
Round Three: Dredge, with Nether Shadow FFS.
The player was obviously inexperienced with the Deck, but I only had Extirpates in the SB and after losing G1 to mediocre Ichorid beats again, I deeded the shit out of him G2. It doesn't help in the long run, though. Despite a mulligan to 5 and two brainstorms, I could not find an Extirpate and died.
I knew I was playing horribly, but who doesn't when one's on painkillers?
Round 4 just for fun, I crushed Sneak and Show pretty convincingly. I even won G1 after he resolved Sneak Attack, put in Griselbrand and drew 7 cards off the successful attack. Deed the Sneak, Extirpate, he reveals Emrakul in hand, discard it with Therapy, Extirpate that and then beating him with Grave Titan.
I did two 8mans after wandering around for 1,5 hours.
1st one, I lost to UR Delver and being screwed on Mana after a Mulligan to 5.
2nd one, I beat my crewmate's UW miracles in an extremely grindy game 3 in which I extirpated basically everything.
...and then proceeded to lose to Dredge, again.
After a horrible night at the campsite with little sleep and in bitter cold, I decided to settle upon the list above, with at least the crypt against dredge, to play six rounds for a box of Revised. I barely remember which round I played which deck. Painkillers = Brainkillers.
The above list is what I used in this event. I cut Ghastly Demise and added a second Innocent Blood to the MD. The Jace in the SB went away for a Tormods Crypt (in case of another Dredge deck... Extirpates just don't do enough / I play them incorrectly.)
vs. UW Stoneforge
The player was pretty bad, but mulligans for Land eventually tied the match at 1-1. Sometimes, the deck is in total control, a Deed in play, but you can't kill them because you only draw 1/1s. So, the third game ended in a draw.
vs. Deadguy Ale (twice!)
I don't know why people play this deck. It's horrible, and Nic Fit beats every single card in their deck. G1 was the usual Nic Fit thing, but it took me 25 minutes to win. In the second game, I could handle everything, but he had Hymned me twice, so we were off to topdeck mode, while a Thalia was beating me down. With only 4 minutes, we started G3 and couldn't kill each other.
The second time against DGA, the deck performed exactly how it's meant to perform. Jace/Deed just wrecks them.
vs. Merfolk
Aside: In testing, I found that once they get to two lords, you are dead in less than 2 turns if you have an island. Therefore, I concluded, either don't use islands or be sure to ramp to Deed fast enough. The latter plan seemed to work better in general, while the no islands plan can work if your starting hand permits it (like, Explorer, Therapy, Forest, Catacombs, Deed,...).
I don't remember all that much about the games, tbh. I know we had one fairly drawn out game in which he topdecked a Phantasmal Image to copy my Grave Titan. Awkward.
vs. Goblins
That game felt particularly unfair. Game 1, he starts with Mountain, Lackey. I start with Forest, Explorer and have Therapy in hand. Not close.
He sides Grafdigger's Cage against me (as did quite a few opponents). That can't be correct against the deck. It shuts off GSZ and flashback Therapies, but dies to Deed? It just feels as it is not doing enough.
Deck Review
The core of the deck, which I consider to be Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Jace and GSZ, worked admirably well. Some comments on particular cards:
Brainstorm: 4of, no question. It makes the deck really consistent. I was always happy to draw one. You have six Fetches, four Explorers and two GSZ. You should be able to utilize Brainstorm quite well. Oracle also loves Brainstorm.
Innocent Blood: It kills your Explorer and takes one of their creatures. Was especially good against Delver, since you can easily play around Daze and Spell Pierce with a CMC1 spell. Recurring it with Witness was painful at times, but often very good.
Coiling Oracle, Baleful Strix: Built-in 2-for-1s are good. Due to the relatively low land count, they rather draw a card than Explore, but that's fine. T2 Orcale T3 Jace still happens once in a while. If you can afford it, set up Lands with Brainstorm or Jace.
Strix usually buys time and occasionally wins games. One thing I learned to love is the high creature count of the deck. If you suspect they are holding Spell Pierce, just drop a Strix. Both creatures are blue spells, which helps casting FoW if you need to. Six seems reasonable.
Eternal Witness: Three is the perfect number, especially for Game ones. It's basically never a dead topdeck. I sometimes boarded out a Witness or two when I did a lot of things with my graveyard in the first game. People board GY hate, and this deck is perfectly capable of winning while ignoring the Graveyard as a resource. Having three Witnesses also made the Fact or Fiction piles a lot harder.
Fierce Empath: I'm struggling with this card. It's a zenithable creature tutor and when I boarded out the Recurring Nightmare/Kokusho plan because of GY hate, I left Empath and Grave Titan as a compact hardcastable wincon. Still, it seems unspectacular as a card.
Recurring Nightmare / Kokusho: Being untutorable, the engine is clearly weaker than in the Gifts build. I sided both cards out quite a lot, since people were packing GY hate anyway. I still like it in the MD, because if you find Nightmare, it's hilarious.
Maelstrom Pulse: Good catchall. 2 seems fine.
Fact or Fiction: Aside from the actual fun you have when your opponent makes piles, the card was really strong. It may not have the game-ending capacity Gifts has, but since you choose the pile, you get what you want faster. Postboard, you also possibly dodge Surgical. Preboard, this card is why Witnesses shouldn't be cut. I was always happy to cast it, and getting the cards on the spot instead of witnessing or GSZ--> witnessing them was crucial in several matches. It's double filthy if you have a Witness ready in your hand. It's also fine to use it as Counter bait.
Jace TMS: One of the best cards in certain matchups. I really want the third Jace in the board and it was a mistake to cut him in the first place. It's interaction (or more precisely, lack of interaction) with Pernicious Deed is wonderful, and Explorer helps you to actually get to resolve him through Spell Pierce or Deed away annoying stuff soon enough. I like how the deck can go BUG Control postboard. I think it's a real strength.
Thragtusk: Worth every penny in many aggro matchups. This card generates just so much time.
Grave Titan: If they don't copy it, this is the beatstick to go. Tokens can also be sacrificed to strip them off anything valuable left with Therapies. Titan also does not care about Innocent Blood. And the look on your opponent's face when you hardcast it is just priceless.
Green Sun's Zenith: 2 was fine, especially postboard, because having too many makes their Grafdigger's Cages actually do something.
SB:
Krosan Grip: Was helpful against UW Stoneforge. Didn't play against Revoker / Needle. I think it's a fair slot.
Thoughtseize: Stellar, but I would not want more than 2.
Extirpate: Equally stellar. 3 is about right, especially considering the fact we run Brainstorm to dig for one.
Tormods Crypt: Didn't play against Dredge again, duh -.-
Flusterstorm: Never drew them and didn't play against Combo all that often. Can't judge the card.
Mana Leak: Surprisingly good. People just don't play around that card. Sure, you're giving them free lands, but I still got them with Leak after an Explorer had died.
Scavenging Ooze: This card wins Games against Delver, just make sure it resolves/lives. Worth the slot a thousand times.
Force of Will: I upped this to three, but am not sure this is correct.
General thoughts
The nature of the deck – every card either drawing cards, generating life or somehow being more valuable than a card – is awesome. If they are forced to kill or attack into Oracles and Strixes, the game goes in the right direction. However, I often struggled to find something that actually kills them. Fact or Fiction usually speeds this process along nicely. Strix beats are not very impressive. I noticed that I deeded most often for two and then proceeded to apply Witness beats.
The fact that you are playing blue makes most players afraid of counters and leaves them playing around Counterspell / Daze / Spell Pierce. It's really fun to watch. Just make sure they don't get that you have none. A timely "Wait!" and then shuffling your cards in hand can buy a lot of time.
One thing that makes it so hard to play the deck correctly is the fact that you don't play the usual Wasteland game, but quite the opposite. You give them lands. It's like yelling „Do your worst, I won't move“ - and after surviving this, killing them with raw card advantage. You need to be able to assess what cards pose an actual threat to you. This is hard, given the many ways in which the deck is able to deal with problematic stuff. Oftentimes, I struggled with what to call for flashbacked therapies, since I had two other ways to deal with the most dangerous card in my opponents hand.
I'm pretty sure my list wants 60 cards and a 22nd land. When I mulliganed into oblivion, it was usually due to the fact that I could not find two lands in my starting hand. It should possibly be a Misty Rainforest, but I'm not sure.
In fact, the Deck mulligans rather well. I remember one game in which I went to three cards and almost topdecked myself to a win – I kept Explorer, Tower, blank, I think? Anyway, the Explorer died and if I had found Deed in time, I simply would have won the match. Sadly, no Deed on top of my deck.
The most promising thought I had was adding some more pressure, since this list is a little faster than the Gifts version, I presume. I'm thinking about Vendilion Clique right now, since it synergizes with Cabal Therapy and gets rid of stuff you can't deal with. It also beats for 3 and does not die to a Deed for 2. I want to make the deck just a little faster and a little less grindy. If that route proves to be valuable, I can see cutting the third forest for a third Island and running actual Counterspells from the sideboard.
Oof. That one got rather long.
Thanks to Arianrhod, Qweerios and you guys for excellent advice and commentary. I hope we can make this into a real deck. Thanks for reading :)
Good to see a report on an actual BUG Fit list (I call it BUG Fit when it packs Jace). After seeing your list and reading your report, I think more of your performance had to do with your deck than your illness than you think. I have been entirely dedicated to the blue splash for the past weeks and it really wreaks havoc in the mid/late game. However, it concedes the early game and you pretty much cross your fingers that your opponent doesn't combo or aggro-explode in your face. It is very easy to play a threat and follow up with a Stifle/Waste + Daze/Pierce/Snare/FoW and pretty much lock us out of the game in 2-3 turns. Nic Fit is already a strong deck against any form of aggro (fast or slow), and control decks. Its traditional nemesis is combo decks. This alone is what makes it a meta predator in a sea of RUG/Maverick. When you want to include a 3rd color to that delicate balance, you have to be careful as to what you are giving up and what you are taking away.
Here are a couple of things I am very adamant about concerning BUG lists:
Top > Brainstorm,
We don't play FoW MD, we can't dig for instant answers, and we can't abuse tempo in any aggressive fashion. Drawing 3 and shuffling away your 2 worst cards is great, but it rarely allows you to put a lock on the game, then what? Sometimes you don't even have shuffling effects and it becomes considerably worst. Top allows you to continuously sculpt your top 3 cards until you find what you desire. It is impervious to Deed and gains value with every passing turn. It will allow you to transform every single extra mana and shuffling effects into Portent.
Gifts > FoF,
This one is very simple, what is the purpose of that card? To produce insurmountable card advantage and bury your opponent in threats/disruption/answers the following turns. Gifts is a thousand times more flexible because it allows you to tutor up 4 cards in your deck over the next 2-3 turns. The traditional Gift pile of 2X Witness effects +2 wanted cards is rarely the go-to pile and I don't recommend it. However, between the Volrath Tower combo, a couple Titans, Witness, Loam, and a few utility lands, there is a lot of GY interactions that will corner your opponent in a matter of seconds. Gift piles offer emergency answers and inevitability while FoF may offer you either, but mostly, it allows you to durdle with your deck a bit longer until you finally achieve what you want. Gifts isn't something you have to look at in a vacuum, there are cards in play, in your hand, and in your GY prior to your first Gifts, and that's what makes it a monster in a deck with so many engines.
Other comments on cards:
Stryx is a waste of time. I'd rather spent my first turns ramping and disrupting my opponent than a cantriping 1/1 Fly/DT body. Stryx has value written all over it, but it is very narrow and of poor quality in a deck with such high aspirations. I find Viridian Emissary just as good if not better. Besides, play your full playset of GSZ before even considering Stryx, the latter pales in comparison to the prior.
Jace is powerful because he is the ultimate Phyrexian Arena for us. Fatesealing into victory isn't much of an option because we have other means of winning that offer more inevitability, card advantage, and that will simply finish our opponent faster. Fatesealing into victory is horribly slow when you can't keep your opponent in check with counterspells. There is a lot of good to be said about Jace but I don't feel like I can afford the mana cost and deck space at the moment.
Here is my latest list:
Creatures (16)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
Spells (21)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard (15)
4 Negate
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Darkblast
1 Karakas
I have opted against Planeswalkers altogether because Gifts and Titans already offer so much value and inevitability that PWs have lost their appeal for board control (they have become win-more). The only PW I would consider is Jace in a control heavy meta. IB and TS have replaced Lily and Prime Titan has replaced Garruk. All of these changes greatly increase the synergy with the rest of the deck. I am now considering to replace Cabal Pit with Karakas and include a Damnation in the board. MD Karakas would give me a better G1 against Sneak Show and Reanimator as I can easely find it via Gifts/Titan. My goal with the GBu version is to maintain the raw strength of GB against aggro and tempo-aggro decks while increasing my odds against dedicated control and combo decks (AKA: adapting to the meta).
Okay -- I'm up to date on the posts, and I've got some stuff to say -- not too much, though, I think, because I've been working on the primer pretty much most of the day. I still have a few more lists to harvest and some more summaries to write...then it's just matchup analyses and it'll be good to go. I may end up having to post it somewhere else and have it linked here....it very well might be too big for its own good (looks like it's going to end up being around 35 pages in MSWord [keep in mind a fair bit of that is decklists, but still]).
I agree with some of what you said, Qweerios, but I'll remind you that he wants something a little closer to BUG Control powered by the Veteran engine (obv. reworking all of the traditional bug control choices in the process). He doesn't want GB Fit splashed blue. However, there's definitely a lot of merit to what you said even applied to his version.
Top is indeed quite sexy, especially with Coiling Oracle (although you can't set up Oracle for t2 like you can with EoT brainstorm). As incredibly awkward as it is to say this, I feel that the correct course of action is probably some weird combination of the two....like 3 Top/2 Brainstorm (or the other way around). One of the reasons Titans are so popular in the deck is because they generate value turn after turn. Qweerios is spot-on with that: repeatable advantage is king for attrition decks. That said, I feel the "Draw 3" boost of Brainstorm has its place too -- but rather than as a card advantage/quality staple, it's as a late-game refuel that can be used early to recover out of stumbling hands.
I'm personally a huge fan of Strix. Emissary is an interesting thought, but I feel like the fact that Strix takes something with it on the way out is relevant, and the fact that the land from Emissary comes in tapped is a deal killer for me. I'd definitely look into putting in the 3rd GSZ, though - probably at the expense of a Strix. Strix is kind of a sort of Moat replacement for the BUG version, because people are usually going to be afraid to swing into it.
I think most of us are on board with Gifts being better than Fact, but keep in mind that he didn't have time to learn Gifts piles before the event. Going forward, we'll be seeing a lot more Gifts, I feel. Some lists might still opt for a 1-of Fact, but I think Gifts is the king of the 4-drop blue instants [lolcryptic].
I like the way Qweerios described Jace -- as "our ultimate phyrexian arena." I do believe there are times when Jace is going to end up being your win condition -- and when your opponent has no field and no hand, obv. fateseal away. But I think that 75% of the time at least, you're going to be wanting him to Brainstorm with....which is another reason I'm questioning 4x Brainstorm.
I like the idea of Clique, actually. Not sure where the room is for it, but it seems like a good fit with the deck.
@KungFu -- I'd probably say drop the Relentless for a 2nd Baneslayer, personally. If you think there's going to be Sneak, definitely do that -- they get REALLY, REALLY angry when you drop a Baneslayer to their Griselbrand off of Show and Tell. World's most random protection, suddenly relevant.
@Claymore -- I have a few comments on your list, but overall it looks like a good place to start. Btw, have you considered Phyrexian Obliterator? I know we're getting a little too all-in on Culling, but good lord if you get Obliterator out early vs certain decks, you just win. Straight up.
It's really anti-synergistic with Deed, but what about Bitterblossom? Having an endless stream of tokens to Cull would alleviate some of the pressure of having to have a creature to sac. It would also force aggro opponents to overcommit into Deed. Probably too cute, though. Do some testing and see how it goes =)
I've thought about Obliterator, but the mana cost scares me and I worry about his board impact. A nice moat effect if nothing else... Also, you just made me think of Greater Harvester for some reason. Probably too dumb.
Bitterblossom. I like it. Gives the deck the early game it often lacks. Faeries for saccing against Fleshbag, Culling, or hell even Harvester if we put that ridiculousness in. Anti-synergy with Deed is probably good, because if you need to pop Deed then those tokens and life loss weren't helping. Gives the deck a bit of Deadguy Ale edge, which supposedly gives SnT problems based on comments over there.
Otherwise I'm gonna stay away from the BUG talk since I don't have pilot experience, haha.
@Qweerios
That BUG list is by far the best looking one I've seen to date. There are a few things I would test though. I kind of want to see a third Green Sun's Zenith somewhere in the list. Also a Recurring Nightmare with the Gifts package seems reasonable. I think one Coiling Oracle can probably be cut safely. Not sure where to squeeze in the other yet. Got to test that. Obviously the sideboard is metagame dependant, but I think ten pinpoint discard spells plus four Negates is overkill against combo. That's not even counting the flashback on Therapy. I think two of the extra discard could be either something along the lines of Damnation and/or more graveyard hate. Just my thoughts, but the list looks really sick. I'm completely onboard with just a splash of blue.
Alright I've gone from Garruk -> 2nd Baneslayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I've also decided to drop the Ulvenwald Tracker for now.
I have 1 open spot in the deck, and here are my choices:
2nd Scavenging Ooze
Wall of Blossoms
Qasali Pridemage
Wickerbough Elder
Living Death
Primeval Titan?
Phyrexian Arena
Depends largely on your meta, I'd say -- almost all of those would be good choices. In a fairly open meta I'd say Qasali or Arena. Should we be targeting anything specifically?
Without a Rector I'd suggest Pridemage, since a fairly open meta can bring all sorts of troubles and you can have a better game 1 toolbox
It allows for main board hate against Revoker/Needle, which will come out against your Deeds
Nothing specific that I know of really. It will be a new meta for me. I think I either need pridemage or elder in the main or side so it's probably fine in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Last q:
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Karakas
or
1 P Arena
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold?
Karakas will be a dead card in most of your matchups, especially without tutor ability. If you changed, say, Thrun (Sigarda is close enough) or Master of the Wild Hunt (you don't run Death Wolves anymore) to Primeval Titan, then I could see you rolling with the
1 P Arena
1 Karakas
1 Stronghold
package fairly well. Your Karakas would be more for removal than to protect your own dudes, and Stronghold gets you recursion of your utility critters.
Otherwise I'd roll with the 2 Arena/Karakas plan, since I'd rather give the deck extra consistency.
I'd two the 2x Arena + I guess Karakas. Where's the slot for the Karakas coming from? I prefer having a 3rd Plains, personally, because there are (corner) cases when you'll go like, forest veteran Tower, with Baneslayer and a plains in hand, and you'll rage. It DOES happen. Karakas will be decent when you find it, some of the time, but remember it's also another wasteland target, and you want to be as wasteland resistant as possible.
Double Arena seems fine, especially if your area has a lot of SCG wannabes that netdeck whatever's doing well at SCG, which lately has been Stoneblade (Arena will singlehandedly win you that matchup). And if you happen to run into burn, well, you know what to board out =P
Hello,
Does anyone remember what post the Gift Piles were discussed in? I know a few months ago Qweerios summarized the different NicFit versions and I believe there was a discussion of Gift Piles around that point.
This is all the more need for a wiki style thread, to promote dynamic discussion by section as opposed to linear, disjointed discussions.
I'm interested in the BUG version and I would like to read up on Gift Piles before I begin.
Thank you guys :smile:
I looked back in the posts around page 50 and I didn't have any luck find the gift piles. I also did a search on "Gift Piles" and perhaps I am searching incorrectly, but it didn't produce any useful results.
I did some google foo and came up with these (on the same page):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post656848
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post657705
+the reply to this last one
----
I'm taking a more traditional GBw list to a tournament tomorrow...not sure at all what to expect, other than one guy who might bring Show and Tell Hive Mind, so I'm running with extra discard in the main board.
The deck is seeming to be vulnderable to aggro...specifically Merfolk, which can quickly overwhelm our defenses. If tribal is indeed having a resurgence, would it make sense to have Master of the Wild Hunt or something else in the sideboard? Garruk Relentless coming back to the main? Assuming for non-Moat builds
Thank you for the link to those Gift piles. It certainly helps.
If you are expecting lots of Merfolk, Jund is the way to go. The extra Pyroblasts from the side really help (you definitely want to run Pyroblast here to target Phantasmial Image if it copies a non-blue creature). Plus, Huntmaster is better in a deck that can naturally cast him (without GSZ).
However, Rector build with Moat is just as solid.
If you are playing a traditional list, perhaps up the Pernicious Deed count? Carpet of Flowers is also a good sideboard swap for Veteran Explorer, as we don't really want to give Merfolk extra land.
I'm debating between the Jund with the Burning Wish board or the Jund without. If you run the Burning Wish board, Tsunami (as advocated by Arianrhod) and Firespout might be nice.
Tsunami is very situational against Fish - it's the kind of card you wish for and it can win you sometimes, but is largely irrelevant. Damnation is better than Firespout as a wish target -- they have too many lords for Spout to reliably kill everything anymore. Also, boarding out Veterans is a mistake. You want to ramp to big ramp ASAP -- giving them lands is largely irrelevant, because the deck is built to cheat on mana anyway. It's like Exploring vs burn. They're going to hit you hard and fast, but they're also going to burn out faster (pun intended). Fish is going to go apeshit, it's true -- but then you have a sweeper, and they die. Ironically, it's less dangerous is they're a good player and refuse to over-commit. While they can use the mana, you can always use it better. It also ramps you past their Dazes and Pierces...and they can't Pierce a Veteran, but they can (and will) a Carpet. You definitely want both.
All that being said, W_W is essentially right. If you're worried about aggro, specifically Fish, run Jund (w/Wish IMO, because I think it's the best Jund build), or Rector->Moat. Or you can play whatever version and have a passable matchup, but one that is loseable....though obviously you gain matchup points elsewhere.
IMO, Claymore, I wouldn't worry about additional maindeck discard. Hivemind is such an ass matchup already as is that I don't think a few extra discard spells maindeck are going to help it. That's one deck we just have to hope to dodge, and let the stack-based decks deal with. Unless you think there's going to be a lot of combo, I wouldn't dilute the deck.
I'll also be at an event tomorrow playing my Rector build, with a good friend who has picked up a 4cc Gifts version also present and piloting, so I should have some saucy details for you guys on Sunday. Good luck in your respective events!
Just curious, what changes would you make to this list to make it 'less atrocious,' outside of adding the Burning Wish / Valakut / Scapeshift package?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Thanks!
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think the Scapeshift combo is all that great since it requires you to have a bunch of basic mountains and Valakut. Plus, you can't play out these Mountains (not via Explorer or fetches) if you want your combo you go off unless you've got spare mountains. But if you do have spare basic mountains, then it makes the manabase of your 3-color deck even weaker. This manabase will cause you to lose games. Plus, if they've gained life (say, via Batterskull) the Valakut combo may not even kill them. Personally I'd say that Call the Skybreaker is a better win-con for Burning Wish builds. With Retrace, it doesn't matter if they counter it, and more importantly, you don't have to build your manabase around it.
Valakut doesn't care if they've gained life. A fully-powered Scapeshift is going to do somewhere upwards of 42 (or more....42 is the highest I hit when I ran it) damage. Also, keep in mind that this isn't standard from a few years ago. We aren't running 12 mountains in our mono-green deck. We have duals. I ran three basic mountains last time because I couldn't find a second Stomping Ground, but I think that three mountains is actually correct the more I pondered it. The mana base actually doesn't cause any issues. Wood Elves is a beast, and goes a long way towards smoothing it out. You can always choose not to get mountains, too. One game my opponent thought I was just splashing red, because I only had one basic mountain out, compared to the rest of my like 7 lands. Then I Scapeshifted, and he died. You just make sure you aren't dicking yourself over on what lands you're playing. Personally, I wouldn't leave home with the Red version and without Wish/Scapeshift. They give you the ability to win games you should never win. And you can goldfish on turn 4 fairly easily. In magical Christmas land, turn 3 is possible:
t1: forest -> Vet
t2: tower -> GGBBR -> Wood Elves (GR+B) -> GSZ@1 (Vet) -> Therapy -> flashback Therapy (GG)
t3: forest x4, bayou, tower, mountain as lands available. Scapeshift (or Burning for Scapeshift) for the win.
@W_W: I don't even know. Putting in Scapeshift would require too many fundamental changes. I think straight Jund w/Wish should be possible, though, so we can make that happen. I know the very first thing I would do is get Deranged Hermit out of my sight. That card is trash. Beyond that, I'd try to find room for Primeval -> two towers, a third Huntmaster (probably dropping the Finks), I'd ditch the Lilianas and the Inquisitions, probably cut most, if not all, of the non-Pulse spot removal, possibly in favor of Bolts? I don't really know what a straight Jund version would look like -- I'm of the opinion that each splash must add a gimmick of some kind to the deck...specifically a secondary tutor package to backup GSZ. (White -> Rector, Blue -> Gifts, Red -> Burning Wish). Obviously like the Rock builds (white w/o Rector) are successful, but they aren't to my "taste," if that makes sense.
Thanks for your response!
Yes, it makes perfect sense. I like the Jund list because I like access to red for Pyroblasts out of the board. I feel Nic Fit is well-positioned in the current meta and as you mentioned a few posts ago, we have the surprise factor (or rather, it is likely opponents will be playing less than optimally against us).
I ran the list from manainfinato last night, making a few changes. I removed 2 Ghastly Demise and 2 Terminate for 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Life from the Loam, and an Eternal Witness. The Life from the Loam was bad. I only included it for Liliana advantage, but it never became an issue.
It's like you've almost read my mind. I wanted to run a Jund build, and even considered a wish build, but I wasn't sold on the Valakut plan. However, you make a good argument for its inclusion, plus it is completely unexpected. I imagine counter-magic is one of the first things people side out against us in favor of graveyard hate and creature removal. Therefore, the Scapeshift package is a nice alternative kill that really does provide an alternate - it gets around creature kill, Humility, Moat, etc. and deals colorless damage to the dome. Additionally, it packs a huge surprise factor. When opponents are sequencing their plays, I imagine they count our creature damage on board in order to determine how many turns they have left. No one sees a Scapeshift for 20.
Huntmaster was awesome last night. I ran 2, but I may up it to 3 because it was that good. Huntmaster vs. Liliana created some awesome situations where any other creature would have just died.
I think you are spot-on about Lightning Bolts. I found myself wanting them, but I remember you castigating someone about their inclusion a few posts back. However, for the Jund version, at least the non-Valakut version, Lightning Bolt is a good card to have.
I also like Liliana because of her ability to lock-out games, but I don't want to open up that debate- I've read over the past couple of pages and I can understand arguments for and against Lil and I think both sides are right. In a Emrakul / Griselbrand heavy environment, I think Lil pulls some weight and is necessary.
To summarize, we have 3 versions of the Jund list (thus far):
creature Jund or straight Jund - runs Lils, but not tutor package - http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverag...ell-2012-julio
Scapeshift Jund, as developed by Arianrhod - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol)/page76 (How do I like to a post and not to a page?)
Burning-Wish Jund - to be developed - uses the Burning Wish toolbox, but without Valakut. Here are some Aggro Loam decks upon which we can leverage information:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...lbox_Loam.html
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=60306
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=62995
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=42671
I've been messing around with the BUG Gifts version and have found some interactions/piles that might be of interest, depending on the meta one's building towards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
My list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Eternal Witness
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Fierce Empath
1 Boneshredder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Unearth
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Sensei's Divining Top
This list allows for piles including Unearth and Phantasmal Image. Often the deck does the straight forward Nic Fit plan of ramp and Mind Twist via Explorers/Oracles and Therapy, hit a Pernicious Deed for 3-4, and either jam Empath/Grave Titan or Gifts into a Recurring Nightmare loop. With 3 GSZ and 3 Witness it usually has that card online before Gifts so the piles often are...
Unearth
Phantasmal Image
Recurring Nightmare
+
Kokusho / Boneshredder / Finks / Therapy
Kokusho is the most mana intensive obviously, but with Image it usually kills in 2 turns if you have 5 mana with a Tower or 6 w/o available. Boneshredder has proven pretty good as a way to stabilize in a turn or two against agro, then one can Witness Gifts and pull up a legit kill. Finks is obviously good when one's life total is on the ropes, having Persist is interesting with Image as well. Therapy is a good one to add to the pile if they're not in topdeck mode already, with Witness and Image you guarantee an empty grip whether they give you Therapy or yard it.
To be fair I'm still working on optimizing my spell orders for maximum profit with these creatures, but I think the CMC 3 plan with Unearth and Image is a more compact option than slot of the BUG Gifts engines I've seen.
The SB I'm currently testing is
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Go for the Throat
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Trygon Predator
Let me know what you guys think.
This might be kind of a dumb-dumb question, but could someone please explain to me the basic Valakut situations with Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, and Veteran Explorer? (I don't play Standard and I have played against Valakut a grand total of 1 time, so I don't really understand all of the coming into play effects).
If you could include a few basic scenarios. I see from Arianrhod below, that 7 lands + Scapeshift = game.
I found this on gatherer, which helps out a little, "f multiple Mountains enter the battlefield under your control at the same time, Valakut's second ability could trigger that many times. Each ability takes into consideration the other Mountains that entered the battlefield at the same time as the one that caused it to trigger."
so 6 mountains plust Valakut = 18 damage?
@ Ali - thanks for the list / Gift piles.
Yes I believe that's how it works. You can scale shift for Valakut plus a bunch of mountain cards and they will all trigger off of Valakut
---
I ran GBw at a local tournament and went 2-1, beating some sort of enchantment deck and a WUG tempo that ran NO/Prog in the sideboard. Lost to Hivemind. I ran a fairly typical deck with x2 Duress and x1 Living Death main board, removal being x2 Flesh bags with bombs being Sun and Grave titans, Kokusho, Sigarda, and maybe something else.
Enchantment was uneventful. Game 2 I duress and see he has Desolation Angel, but decide to accelerate him into it anyway, going as far as Rector out Phyrexian Arena. I have removal in hand for the Angel and take out my own Arena to end at 1 Life before getting out Kokusho to stabilize and win.
Match up against Hivemind had a promising hand when I T1 Duress for Hivemind I think, then Cabal Therapy for Pact of Negation x2 and flash backed Therapy with Ooze to take x2 Emrakul. However, I can't get any pressure even when I use Rector to fetch Arena when he eventually gets a Hivemind and red Pact.
I side in 10 cards, including 4 Surgicals, 4 Guttural Response, Teeg, and Cranial. My hand is slow but I keep the x2 Guttural, Teeg with Explorers. Turn 3 I play Teeg and start the beat down with Teeg and a few Explorers. Opponent is completely locked except he can play Faerie Macabre for defense. An Eternal Witness comes down for me and I get him to 4 with x2 Guttural (I countered a dig card then returned the guttural) and GSZ in hand, but its Teeg facing a lone Faerie. I can't top deck any thing and he gets Slaughter Pact to kill Teeg, followed by casting Hivemind and the red pact to kill me.
WUG went fairly smoothly, game 1 he Forced a Scavenging Ooze and then forced Oblivion Ring, but was drained by the time I Pulsed his Knight and eventually got GSZ for Sigarda. From watching earlier games I knew he was bringing in NO/Prog, so I bring in Cranial and something else. I keep a slow hand and he GSZ for Dryad Arbor followed by NO. I draw zero spells to deal with it and die. Game 3 I get Cranial in my mulligan hand. I get turn 1 Explorer with turn 2 Tower and decide to go all in on Cranial Extraction since he used Verdant Catacombs for Dryad Arbor. He Dazes it and I pay the one, then extract Progenitus (should I take Natural Order?). I win from there with Grave Titan smash with Sun Titan back up.
I did like my x2 duress, didn't feel like it diluted the deck since my list is aimed at long term control and it helps with our horrible combo match up...despite my 0-2 record tonight. I still think it gives us a better chance.
I have been reading this tread as much as I can, I'm on page 65 now (kind of awkward reading in reverse). I been looking at all the deck lists and going through all the card choices as much as I can. And it seems like I am playing this deck completely wrong, which is probably why my match up results are different. It seems it should be played as a control deck rather than an aggro deck. So now I have a few questions.
For BUG it seems it has very few win conditions. They have 2-3 creatures that can actually end a game. It seems like Swords to Plowshares could potential take you out of the game, unless you plan on getting there with 1/1's.
The Jund version looks like it is very inconsistant. I have really only looked at the Valakut version though. But what do you do with all the red mana you have? If you draw your red mana then that makes scapeshifting kind of bad. Maybe I just need to actually play with it to see. But I can see how you have a better win% vs blue based decks because you have the ability to stop them from stopping you plus they have to worry about your creatures. It just seems a little inconsisitant with no use for all the red mana.
Still researching the Rector version.
Also I learned the hardway that Leyline of the Void opening hand is pretty bad for this deck. It complete shuts of Veteran Explorer and every other whenever this creature dies ability.
Nic Fit is definitely closer to the control end of the spectrum than the agro end. Against combo the deck tends to have to be proactive and aggressive, but versus agro and control, it's positioned to win the long game.Quote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
Hence why the deck is armed with Cabal Therapy and in the Blue version some sort of resilient card manipulation engine that should ensure discard is available to actively disarm the opponent of Exile based removal for the critical couple of turns to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
Okay, so I've done some gold fishing with the Jund Scapeshift list. Overall, I think it's powerful and packs an unexpected finish in Scapeshift. Scapeshift is nice because it circumvents all creature hate.
I'll start with my list (modified from Arianrhod's) and sideboard and discuss my decisions.
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Scapeshift
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Stomping Ground
5x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
//SB
3x Pyroblast
1x Scapeshift
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Massacre
1x Chainer's Edict
1x Thoughtseize
1x Reverent Silence
1x Damnation
1x Reanimate
1x Regrowth
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Pulverize
So, I think 3 Mountains is correct for the maindeck (as opposed to 2 Mountains and 2 Stomping Grounds). Basic mountains may be searched for with Veteran Explorer, which can become relevant in the late game.
I added a Scavenging Ooze to the maindeck, because the maindeck felt very weak to graveyard decks without it.
I cut to 1 Wood Elf as a GSZ target (for ramp and to pull Mountains for Valakut). This is a slot I need to test more, Arianrhod said they were his MVP). (1 Wood Elf was cut for Scavenging Ooze, the 2nd was cut to make it a 60 card deck).
I considered running 2 Huntmaster of the Fells. I still not sure it's a 3 of. I consider the 3rd Huntmaster the 60th card in the deck. I considered a Thrun or a Wickerbough Elder in this slot. Thrun didn't seem necessary because of the prevalence of Terminus (hexproof doesn't matter as much anymore) and the alternative kill of Valakut makes it less necessary to creature kill.
I tried a Wickerbough Elder in the main, but I figured with 3 Pernicious Deeds, 2 Maelstrom Pulses main and 1 Reverent Silence, 1 Pulverize, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse with the Burning Wish sideboard, I had enough artifact and enchantment hate.
I plan to replace Kitchen Finks with Thragtusk once its price drops online. M13 just came out 3 days ago online and Thragtusk is trading for $14. I believe it will drop to $6 over the next 2 weeks, so I'm waiting to purchase it.
Other than that, it's Arianrhod's list.
The mana base is interesting. At first, the no fetches seemed weird. However, the deck still packs plenty of shuffle effects for Sensei's Diving Top in the form of Veteran Explorer, Wood Elves, Scapeshift, Primeval Titan, and Green Sun's Zenith (12 shuffle effects). 24 lands seems a bit much. I wonder if the deck couldn't shave a Forest for a Wood Elf.
The sideboard is interesting and is where I had to make the most difficult cuts.
3 Pyroblast
1 Pulverize
1 Scapeshift
1 Regrowth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Massacre
1 Haunting Echoes
The first thing that struck me about this deck was that it is cold to graveyard strategies. In Arianrhod's build, the only graveyard hate is a side board Haunting Echoes. I added an Ooze main, but 2 pieces of graveyard hate isn't going to go to far, especially when Haunting Echoes costs 7 to find with Burning Wish. What are some other good sorcery speed graveyard hate options?
Virtue's Rain does not exist online, or else the Massacre would be a Virtue's Rain. I considered Perish as an answer to Elves, but every single creature in this deck is green, besides the Broodmate Dragon token, so I ruled that out.
Pulverize is solid versus Affinity and MUD and can be cast on turn 2, which is strong when Affinity drops their entire hand turn 1.
Pyroblasts are solid against Merfolk and come in against pretty much any blue deck. I consider Pyroblast as one of the primary reasons for running the Jund version of Nic Fit.
I tried Chainer's Edict over Innocent Blood. I realize Innocent Blood can be used to sacrifice your own Veteran Explorers, but so can Chainer's Edict. Edict is nice because it can be used twice. I couldn't think of too many situations where I would want to Wish for Innocent Blood to sacrifice my own Explorer and a lot more where I would be sacrificing a creature that I wanted to keep around.
Haunting Echoes is very, very solid vs. graveyard decks and other decks, it's just a question of if we can get it off in time. With LED dredge being able to go off very quickly, I wonder if some number of Nihil Spellbombs, Tormod's Crypts, Surgical Extractions, or Extirpates are not appropriate.
Thoughtseize seems nice, but am I really going to have to Burning Wish for a Thoughtseize to take a crucial card? I guess Cabal Therapy could present a situation where that was necessary.
Reanimate is also nice, but I wonder how applicable it is. A Reanimator deck is more likely to Entomb end of turn and it is unlikely they will leave a creature in their graveyard. Perhaps there is the possibility they just don't see Reanimate coming, but I think Burning Wish ->Reanimate just seems awfully slow versus a deck that can bring a fattie into play on turn 2. This slot may also be best as some kind of graveyard hate.
Scapeshift, Pulse, and Damnation are all self-explanatory.
Reverent Silence is one of the cards I was on the fence about. While Reverent Silence is very strong, I'm not sure it is necessary in the current meta. While it wrecks Enchantress, there isn't exactly much Enchantress running around these days. Additionally, the alternative Valakut kill means cards like Humility and Moat don't matter as much. I also considered Hull Breach for this slot, but I couldn't think of many situations where I would want to kill an enchantment and an artifact at the same time.
Regrowth is another card I am on the fence about and I may cut it. Burning Wish for Regrowth for graveyard card seems a bit convoluted, especially with 2 Eternal Witness in the deck. I think it would be best to run the 4th Green Sun's Zenith in the board and GSZ for E. Witness. It costs 2 more mana, but the GSZ in the board has much broader applications. I'm going to replace the Regrowth with a GSZ and put a 2nd Wood Elves in the deck.
Cranial Extraction is another card I am on the fence about. While Cranial is very powerful, it is also very expensive and I can't think of many decks it absolutely wrecks. Sneak and Show has both Sneak and Show (I guess Cabal Therapy information could make Cranial Extraction particularly devastating). Hive Mind has the alternate kill Show and Tell into Emrakul. Storm often keeps an alterative kill in their sideboard. I just can't think of many match-ups where Cranial Extraction shines.
Cards that didn't make the cut:
Night's Whisper - why not run Sign in Blood instead? The double black is unlikely to be a factor and Sign in Blood can act as a Shock vs. an opponent, pushing through those last few points of damage. In any event, I would rather tutor for GSZ and find a creature. Huntmaster can deal 2 as well.
Pyroclasm/Firespout - both are contenders if the meta shifts. This deck has solid removal in the form of Pernicious Deed, so I'm not sure if extra sweepers are necessary, but Pyroclasm/Firespout increases the threat count.
4th GSZ - this may be a move I'll consider. Probably replacing the Regrowth. EDIT - I actually decided to do it and add an extra Wood Elves in the main. GSZ also creates the option of turning Burning Wish into a creature.
Life from the Loam - Nic Fit doesn't historically run Wasteland, but if it did, Life from the Loam is nice. This version is also not running Liliana, but Life from the Loam creates awesome Liliana locks. Because this deck doesn't even run fetchlands, so Life from the Loam is out.
Shattering Spree - solid. I considered this over Pulverize, but I like the ability to cast a turn 2 Pulverize. Because lands shouldn't be that much of an issue in this deck and we are running plenty of mountains, Pulverize gets the nod over Shattering Spree.
Hull Breach - see above.
EDIT:
I modified the deck list and sideboard above as follows:
MAIN
-1 Forest
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+2 Wood Elves
SIDEBOARD
-1 Regrowth
-1 Cranial Extraction
-1 Haunting Echoes
-1 Pyroblast
+1 GSZ
+1 Extirpate
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Surgical Extraction
I'm still on the fence about Reanimate and Thoughtseize, and I am leaning towards switching a Reanimate for a 3rd Pyroblast or 4th piece of graveyard hate.
I just played a match vs. Merfolk and I sided out the Burning Wish package - 4 Burning Wish, -2 Wood Elves, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Chainer's Edict, +1 Damnation. +1 Green Sun's Zenith, +1 Maelstrom Pulse - this seemed like a good sideboarding strategy.
Deed rocks in the match up and Huntmaster is some good as well. I agree with Arianrhod, Veteran Explorer does not help them out that much. While they can pull out a lot of Islands, it is much more necessary for us to ramp.
I'm still not sold on the 4th GSZ in the board. I like to have 4 main. However, it is nice to be able to turn Burning Wish into creatures.
That was a hell of a post -- I like it.
A few counterpoints:
Two Huntmasters is more correct then two Wood Elves. Wood Elves is amazing in the deck not because of the ramp (which is sweet) or because the land comes in untapped (which is baller with Top), but because it fixes your mana in a deck without fetchlands. The reason the deck runs 5 Forests is because you really, really want a Forest. At the point at which you have a Forest, between Vet and Wood Elves, you've got everything, and the consistency (or lack thereof) fails to matter anymore.
Ooze is fine. I actually had him in the Jund Scapeshift list for a while, but eventually cut him for one of the Wood Elves spots. I have no complaints about him coming back -- this version is definitely much weaker to fast graveyard strategies.
Pulverize is boss. I had no idea that card existed. Saccing two mountains is a little painful, but the amount of damage that's going to do to the decks that we'd Wish for it is astonishing.
Chainer's may well be superior. The reason I opted for Innocent Blood is because usually the decks where you're going to NEED it against (Show and Tell), are going to drop Show and Tell -early-, and you might not have the 4 mana to Wish + Edict. If you're on the play and they go turn two Show-Emrakul, Edict won't get the job done. I do agree that in non-Show and Tell scenarios, Edict is better, but I think that the corner case is significant enough to merit inclusion.
Haunting Echoes is not just graveyard hate - it's also an alternate wincon if the game goes long =D
Thoughtseize can probably be cut. Cranial needs to be in the deck before Thoughtseize, anyway. Cranial is good because it can hurt combo decks. Taking out a combo deck's Sneak Attacks, or Time Spirals, or LEDs, or Infernal Tutors, or whatever won't necessary kill them. But it'll slow them down enormously, while we find an Eternal Witness can take more of their things. Cranial gives the deck a prison strategy against combo decks (and attrition mirrors). I've actually had two games now (one yesterday) with my Rector version where, in the attrition mirror, I have literally Cranial'd all of my opponent's creatures out of his deck. The funny thing is I wasn't even looping Nightmare (he Extirpated it :| )...I was saccing a Witness to Tower every turn and swinging with Sun Titan to recur it. He had like 80 life. It took a while.
Reverent seems good if you have an Enchantress problem. Otherwise, I'd leave it at home. We don't care about Counterbalance -that- much (at this point in time).
Reanimate adds another interesting dimension to the deck. You can cheat out your stuff with it (Therapy yourself, name Primeval, reanimate). You can also use it just to grab one of your opponent's beatsticks in the lategame. Paying 2 life for a Tarmogoyf is perfectly acceptable. And then sometimes there'll be those rare wondrous moments when you're playing vs Reanimator or Sneak. What you do there is you Cabal Therapy them naming Griselbrand (or one of their other dudes if you think they have it). Then you Reanimate it. They won't usually leave it exposed, because they'll usually Entomb...but sometimes they will Careful Study, and that'll provide an opening too. Just remember that you can force an opening with Therapy.
Regrowth may well be too clunky, but I did find myself wish I had it in my board the first time I played the deck (pun intended). That gives the deck 10 regrowth effects between main and sideboard, counting the Wishes and the GSZ.
Also, don't forget about Qweerios's (I believe) suggestion of Natural Order. I am definitely on board with that. Broodmate Dragon has been very underwhelming to me, which is probably frightening. I'm inclined towards either Gaea's Revenge or Damia, Sage of Stone. Damia would probably require a little trickery in the mana base, but I think it COULD be done. Whether or not it SHOULD is another question entirely. I like the idea of having that much gas, but I'm not sure. Maybe it would be best to just run it and not change the mana base and say fuck it. If it gets in our hand, we can Therapy it and Reanimate, I guess. Otherwise, Burning->NO / GSZ should be sufficient to get it out. Gaea's Revenge is a hilarious thought, but I don't know how good it would be. I mean, being able to just dome somebody for 8 out of literal nowhere would be pretty amusing, and it has its own protection built in -- it's not going to get Swords'd or any such. I dunno. It's an interesting thought.
Took third at my LGS's event yesterday. Fairly uneventful day...died in the swiss and then again in the quarters to the same Canadian Thresh deck, which irritated me. My deck literally dug in its heels and straight up refused to work against him for whatever reason. Other than that, deck seemed fine. Nothing really too exciting to report, so I'm not going to go into greater detail.
If we are talking wish boards, what about a Living Wish board? We could even run like a wasteland for random problematic lands. We could have SB GY hate with Bojuka bog/scavenging ooze, some burn hate in finks (or huntmaster) and other stuff. I know that GSZ already does some work, but that way you can run some non green guys that do good stuff for us out of the board. Yixilid Jailer even? Just a thought.
Edit: also in the punishing fire builds living can get a grove.
I'll add that in the innocent blood vs chain's edict question, the times you want an edict effect they often will have Misdirection to make you sac a creature instead.
I'm playing the GBw list and the Jund list and with the experience I have had is, how to respons to a turn 1 Lackey or Delver flip, when you don't have a Stp or Lightning blot in hand and cant ramp because of no Explorer? I know you will say "don't keep that hand then". Deed is essentielly the only sweeper we have next to Pulse. That and gravehate is my only worry with this denk - else LOVE playing this deck. LOVE the Rector package + SB tech.
Have anyone considered Griselbrand? Or Is hé to slow and costly (BBBB4)?
/PollePotDK
@Cairo,
Unearth in a Gifts version sounds sick, and so does Phantasmal Image. I love how you can chain Witnesses with Unearth. I would definitely suggest Fleshbag Marauder > Boneshredder. Also, in my latest testing, I have concluded that more GSZ is better than Oracles, therefore unless I have 4 GSZ in my list, there is no point in having Oracles. GSZ is an Explorer on T2 for 1G. It scales much better than Oracle throughout the game and won't force you into a blue mana on T2.
I like that Boneshredder targets against Maverick and Tribal, prioritizing targets can be relevant, rather than them saccing a Noble, Cursecatcher or Mogg War Marshall token, etc. Versus Reanimator and Sneak and Show there's the option to use Image to Legend rule and/or Eternal Witness an Innocent Blood back. I do run Fleshbag Marauder SB for situations where it's better or additional removal is desired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
The 4th Zenith over the 3rd Oracle seems probably correct. I'll give that swap a try, thanks for the feedback.
I had a similar revelation last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by PollePotDK
To begin, I was running the Burning Wish / Scapeshift version of the deck. Scapeshift/Valakut takes up 6 slots in the main and 1 in the board while weakening your mana base. The 6 main deck slots are 3 Wood Elves, 2 Scapeshift, and 1 Land (because you are running 23 land in BurningShift, while you only need 22 in Nic Fit). Additionally, your mana base is weakened - no fetches for mana fixing, hence the Wood Elves, and you need extra Forests, 2 coming-into-play tapped lands (Valakut) and a Stomping Grounds for an extra mountain.
I decided to cut the Scapeshift package and run Burning Wish Jund.
I removed the 3 Wood Elves, 2 Scapeshifts, and 1 land (tweaking the manabase to remove Mountains and add 8 fetches) and added 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Thoughtseize.
Nic Fit is built to beat all the fair decks, which it does quite well. It struggles against the unfair decks, hence the extra discard.
Then, I began looking at my Burning Wish board. I looked at what it added. I had Pulverize for Affinity and MUD and I had Reverent Silence for Enchantress. But I also had Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse. Pulverize didn't really work with the non-Valakut mana base. Because I was only running 3 Mountains, the chances of seeing 2 on turn 2 were slim to none, even with fetches. (the Valakut version runs 11 Mountains). I had black cards like Reanimate, Innocent Blood, and Cranial Extraction. It seemed like Liliana and discard performed similar functions, only more quickly and with less mana.
When I played against Zoo, I boarded out 2 Thoughtseize and 4 Burning Wish for 1 Damnation, 1 Massacre, 1 Chainer's Edict, 1 Reanimate, 1 Green Sun's Zenith, and 1 Maelstrom Pulse. I figured the chances of drawing any of the Wish targets individually did not outweigh the extra mana and exposed information Burning Wish required.
So, I decided to cut the Burning Wish package all together, adding 3 Liliana's and 1 Green Sun's Zenith.
I know Liliana is controversial in this deck, but it helps us win the matches we are weak to and most times we are not holding any cards in hand (the +1 hurts us much less than our opponents).
Liliana helps beat combo, but I'd think she'd be better from the sideboard. She alone can not get you the win unless they are a horrible player and keep a very bad hand, so you need to bring in support cards for her that will dilute your deck anyway.
Games 2/3 when you have active hate going I can def see her helping, or if you destroy their hand with t1 and t2 discard then she can finish off the match with ease. She would've been great in my game against Hive Mind to finish out the match after I locked him out with Gaddock Teeg.
However, just her alone will do absolutely nothing. Turn 2 Liliana they'll discard a land and then kill you next turn with their two card combo. The deck needs targetted discard and/or Cranial effects to level the playing field and get the win against combo.
I'm gonna experiment with a few from the board, see what happens...