Made the finals yet again with the new U/R Pyromancer list, going 5-1 in the process.
Details to follow.
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Made the finals yet again with the new U/R Pyromancer list, going 5-1 in the process.
Details to follow.
How do you feel about a fatty goyfQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I'm not even sure what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
How are you dealing with itQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Well, there are a few ways to deal with Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
This is a more control-based shell, and naturally all U/R variants have their inherent difficulties dealing with it. Thankfully, we have a multitude of options. The deck can gum the board up with tokens from Young Pyromancer and burn it out before it gets too large. Even then, it's a vanilla creature. A surprise Snapcaster Mage and Lightning Bolt can finish it off, as well. Countering it is also a realistic possibility.
The thing to note is that this build has a higher amount of permission than typical U/R versions running more burn, but has redundancy built into it in multiple ways. Nemesis with Delver can power through damage in a hurry, as well. If Goyf is popular in your meta, you can use cards like Curfew and Dismember to take care of it. Mine doesn't have many, so I play accordingly. However, I've tested against decks running it and it really hasn't been that big of a deal. There are so many tricks this deck has built into it that dealing five damage to a Tarmogoyf isn't that hard - even if it means trading.
Have you ever thought of bringing in submerges?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Are those of you playing the Young Pyromancer builds having issues with -x/-x effects? Feels like they're everywhere around here.
That's another option, too. I just like Curfew because of its ability to hit untargetables like Emrakul and TNN and its great synergy with Snapcaster Mage and Young Pyromancer. It's really not even "cute" synergy; it's legitimately powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Granted, it doesn't target. Submerge is better against Goyf, but I think Curfew's overall application is better in a deck like this. My list is in partial flux, but in all honesty I've been impressed with its performance.
Also, here were my match-ups for reference:
Round [1]: vs. U/R Delver [W 2-0]
Round [2]: vs. RUG [W 2-0]
Round [3]: vs. Goblins [W 2-0]
Round [4]: vs. Burn [W 2-1]
Top Four: vs. U/R Pyromancer [W 2-1]
Finals: vs. Goblins [L 1-2]
No excuses against the Goblins deck the second go-around in the finals, but I did keep an extremely loose hand game three when it was getting late. Wound up almost pulling it out, though.
People were also asking me if I missed Gitaxian Probe, which I honestly really didn't. I may be entirely wrong on this one, but the way the deck flowed I could see how the draws were smoother and the deck played itself out. Opening hands felt comfortable with more action, and there were really no discrepancies as far as mulligans were concerned.
would you take out an island for another waste?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I could I suppose. I haven't noticed or cared for the fourth.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I used to play the old Boaz list and had a ton of fun and good success. My meta shifted and I wanted wasteland, but in looking to go back to Keller's list so I can use my foil noxious revivals. Can someone talk a lite bit about how the counterbalance matchup goes?
I've been finding that pyromancer is more and more a meta call. My meta is lots and lots of TNN, so all the black decks (as in decks with black in them, like BUG and Jund) are running toxic deluge in the side. Then you've got zealous persecution in the deathblade lists, which is good against delver even without pyromancer.
Now, oddly enough, the printing of Council's Judgement is probably the best thing to happen to young pyromancer; instead of running -X/-X effects, they're just running that (since it doesn't target), which isn't actually all that awesome against pyromancer.
All that said, in my eyes there are only two versions of UR delver that should ever really see play: Pyromancer lists, and Price of Progress lists.
My personal favorite deck in the entire format is UR delver with Price. Price of Progress means you're going for burn, and should also be running goblin guide since that card is absolutely nuts. Pyro is okay here, but you don't have as many slots for it. The core of this deck is this, IMO:
4 Delver
3-4 Snapcaster
4 Guide
1-2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force
4 Bolts
4 Chain lightning (I cannot think of a reason to run less than 4)
2-3 Price
2-6 Counterspells
4 Brainstorm, best card in the deck
3-4 Ponder (I guess preordain could work. I've never seen it before Keller's list in this thread, but I'm sure it works just as well.)
8-10 Fetchlands
8-10 Lands
(Total lands should be 18)
Do not run wasteland in this list. Not only do you want to hit them for a bunch with price of progress, but you also want to hit 4 mana reliably since flashing back price of progress is the ultimate game ender. Without wasteland, stifle becomes kind of bad, so don't run it either. I also advise against daze since it's not that strong when you're not running mana denial. Plus, this deck is very mana intensive with snapcaster (a 3-4 mana card) and grim lavamancer, so bouncing your lands is not the strongest play. To compensate, run spell pierce. Spell snare is also super strong in this list since you have no consistent outs against a resolved goyf. I'm pretty sure this is stuff everyone already knows, but I'm bored at work so screw it. :P
Andrew schneider's UR burn list won a SCG open or something similar recently, it looks like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Lava Spike
I've been running with this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
Probe is good. Like, really good. If anything, I'm just testing without it; I've actually been really missing it lately. I've been considering a 2/2/2 split of pierce/snare/probe. I think snare is too good to pass up as well since it hits like half the cards that rip us a new one (goyf, SFM, hardcasted Jitte to name a few). Maybe I could cut a GL from the main for a probe, then squeeze one into the side. Maybe cut a smash, 3 is probably too much. But for now, that's what I'm running.
Forked bolt isn't that important in the burn list cause you run 8 bolts and at least one grim Lavamancer. If you see a lot of DnT and maverick in your meta, run one, but even against delver it's not that necessary since you run such an ungodly amount of relevant removal.
Four Volcanics is probably best but the price jumped and I only have 3 from RUG so fuck that.
I'm finding that Spell Snare is actually looking better and better. It's not just its application against any two-drop - it's just that some of the best cards in the format right now are at a converted cost of two. They also happen to be inherently good against us, so I may consider that split.
i suppose you will take out fire/ice and a gutshotQuote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
With the increase in islands in the UR deck, does Thwart become an option? Maybe as a singleton? It also works well with Price of Progress on the stack.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/108.jpg
Or maybe foil? discarding something for snappy to flash back?
Might be too cute though..
Hey Hollywood.
Been playing with your deck design, its a very fun deck especially dominating tempo strategies
I have a question, any ideal on how to beat the miracles matchup?
I've been thinking about that, and honestly I'm thinking of shifting to Pithing Needles in the board if I'm going to a large event with the deck or play in a meta with Miracles everywhere. I think the ability to shut down Top is just huge, and I think you play enough counters to war it out against an opponent's early Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Not exactly the best match-up in the world, but there are options you can explore to beat it out of the board. Another TNN may be ideal; that really only leaves Terminus as their only out.
Both thwart and foil seem really bad. For 0 mana counters I think we should just stick with force. Between Force and pierce I don't find myself lacking in counter magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Remember, we're not a control deck.
Welcome to Sulfuric Vortex and a better manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Sulfuric Vortex is an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
This is a two-color deck with an almost even balance of blue and red spells (at least my version is); as long as its supported properly, a "better" mana-base should be largely irrelevant and more dependent on which version you choose to run.
An interesting UR list with standstill made top 8 at a relatively big tournament recently.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : UR Delver
// CREATOR : Ivan Siska
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Standstill
2 Dismember
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Submerge
How many things are we happy paying 4 life to Dismember? Seems like an odd choice.
Two is a reasonable number of Dismembers to take out Tarmogoyfs that stick. It also depends on the build you're running.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
Goyf problems seem to me are best handled by two options:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
1. Vapor Snag
2. Submerge
Depending on how much reliance the list has on Snapcaster Mage (#1 primarily).
I think Curfew is likely better than Vapor Snag in this deck. It also has application against Emrakul, Progenitus and other hexproof creatures, and also bounces opposing flipped Delvers. It triggers off of Pyromancer, so you can stack the trigger and just bounce the token upon resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
And the dual synergy with Snapcaster Mage is pretty outstanding.
I sleeved this up and played it as soon as I saw it on tcdecks. It brings back so many feels. It plays just like the old UR Fish decks from back when Hulk Smash was a Vintage deck. Tested it against Miracles and Reanimator and it was very solid. I beat Reanimator 2-1 by just having answers to everything, and beat Miracles 2-1 by grinding him out and stifling his terminus whenever I could. I lost game 2 vs Miracles when he was on 2 life, and I couldn't find anything to deal damage with. I did remove 1 Grim Lavamancer to add another land. 20 seems too low, considering the deck runs 8 colorless lands and is very interested in sacrificing 4 of them. I also changed the 2 Nemesis to 2 Clique because I was preparing for a combo meta. I haven't played against any fair decks, so I can't really tell how good the Dismember is. I wished at least one of them were a Fire/Ice in game 2 of the Miracles match, though, because I drew both when I was digging for damage. Must test more!Quote:
Originally Posted by kaminamina
Bouncing your own snapcaster has been amazing for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Creatures other than goyf can easily be handled with the amount of bolts this deck packs.
Representing the new UR Pyromancer list at SCG: Syracuse.
Good luck Mike. I would wish you many feature matches and opportunities to crush the competition, but I know you would rather go about it in the shadows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
While I still think the Burn approach to this archetype is more powerful in its ability to win close games (ignore interaction, deal damage), I think the Stifle build has a lot of merit in an established Fetchland metagame.
That's exactly what I'll be doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
How did it go down in Syracuse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
I played against Ivan Siska piloting this deck at Prague Eternal in the Semifinals with Storm andQuote:
An interesting UR list with standstill made top 8 at a relatively big tournament recently.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation created with mtgtop8.com
// NAME : UR Delver
// CREATOR : Ivan Siska
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Standstill
2 Dismember
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Submerge
there is also the Video Coverage on Youtube i think.
He defeated 2 of my friends in the swiss rounds and after the tournament i talked to him about his sweet list.
He mentioned, that he increased the 1 drops in his deck (4 Delver and 3 Grim Lavamancer) for a perfect Standstill on turn 2.Especially Grim Lavamancer is a great tool to get rid of random opposing manlands such as creeping tar pit or mishras factories.
standstill was a metacall, with all the slow miracle decks around, why not play 4 'ancestral recalls'.
Not sure if its been mentioned already but repeal is super sexy right now. Gets germ token, flipped delvers, marit lage all for 1 blue and cantrips... What?!? Also has other applications as a tempo card and pseudo removal for enchantments.
The deck needs more amazing 1 drops imo. Burn route defiantly favorable because if you stick a early threat hold them off for a couple turns with control, then use fire blast/price to wrap things up.
Another Top8 (3-0 + double ID) after five months of tournament absence:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Spell Snare
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
//Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Price of Progress
2 Vapor Snag
Matchups were Merfolk 2-0, TinFins 2-0 and Miracles 2-0, as well as BW Tokens/Blade/Midrange 0-2 in the quarterfinals.
Mind me asking what your usual sideboard plan is for miracles and U/W/R delver? I'm debating between the landstill build and the burn build at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Against Miracles Sulfuric Vortex has priority number one. If your meta demands it, you can up the count in the SB without much hesitation.
Usually I board out FoW & PoP for Vortex, TNN and Pyroblast.
UWR depends on the build.
Good thing nobody checked your deck and found you were only playing 56 cards.m set of chain lightning missing from the list I would imagine?Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
nah you board out daze against miracles. That card is more dead than not. You keep FOW because you need it to stop their win conQuote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Relax, madman. Just a copy-paste mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelteg
Of course +4 chain lightning.
You can board however you want, but if I am on the play, I leave Daze in the maindeck. Can't even count the times I got a Sword, Top, CB or whatnot. You want to be aggressive as fuck and Daze allows you to be that way without losing on CA. You are also not as reliant on FoW for their wincons, since you have the advantage of playing first and Daze forces them to play around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
On the draw I am more lik
ely to swap out some amount of them.
Say bye to GG?
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...2555465671.png