[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

Many things in this deck seem to defy conventional deck building logic, mainly because this is a Storm engine deck. It compares similarly to TES and ANT in its construction, both of which rely on low-land, high-cantrip count.

Through extensive testing, I reasoned that the core of roughly 54 cards is rock solid:

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
8 fetchland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea

The remaining slots:
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Underground Sea
1 Thoughtseize / Silence
1 Reanimate

In an unknown metagame, playing the 14th land helps to offset loses against Wasteland/Stifle/Daze decks. However, playing 14 lands has been tested to show a frequency of "flooding," suggesting that the 14th land is superfluous in unknown metas where we are not matched against Blue Tempo decks. Conversely, playing with only 13 lands has resulted in varied results with a larger frequency of losses to Tempo when matched up.

Thus, the ratio of 13/60 feel light (21.7%), and 14/60 feels heavy (23.3%). Adding the 61st card bridges between those two ratios (22.95%). The significance of the 61 card is low (<2%).

Enter Gitaxian Probe. Effectively a zero mana cantrip which helps move through the deck faster (and finds Entomb more regularly), and provides valuable information. In fact, the information and its use with LDV is of so much importance, that it feels like the deck is losing a bit when we only run 3 to squeeze back to 60 cards.

The Thoughtseize/Silence slot is to help ensure sufficient disruption against other combo and counter decks. Silence is specifically replacing Thoughtseize in combo heavier metagames (such as LA), but is not necessary for the list.

Reanimate was reasoned to be better than the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for two important reasons: 1) reanimating Children of Korlis, and 2) providing a Plan B against tempo decks by reanimating Griselbrand or Tempo's discarded creatures (Goyf, TNN).

Moreover, the 61st card is not a hard and steady requirement, but rather a "meta" call. I don't expect anyone to copy my list as the proven "as-is", but rather encourage variations on the last few slots, including and not limited to 60 or 61 cards.

The suggestion to add the Mox Diamond is of interest to me for providing a better mana ratio. The discussion over the last few pages is focused on reducing the likelihood of fizzling after Griselbrand is in play. Mox Diamond is of benefit due to excess dead land draws after drawing 7-21 cards. .dk mentioned that if we could run 6 Lotus Petals, we would. The suggestion of cutting a land to fit a Mox Diamond stems from the fact that we will rarely use Mox Diamond prior to reanimating Griselbrand. I don't doubt it could happen before, and the risks of doing so must be evaluated. I've covered some of the qualitative aspects of the inclusion in a previous post some pages back.

Finally, to qualify these statements; my constructed record with Tin Fins in large (6+ round events) is 35-19-2, or ~65%, with the largest contributor is Bazaar of Moxen at 7-2 Day 1, and 2-4 Day 2; mostly losing to RUG variants in Day 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niggurath

What about cutting Silence? Currently not playing this deck, but I played Koby's list (your BOM list) a lot in MTGO. Always felt that one-of silence at main was too random. Great when it was good, but the worst when was bad.

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I say Silence. You will have access to them in the board for game 2.

Hell, I'll even add my constructed record at events- 13-8-1 (2 open(6-2-1 w/ top 8, and 6-3)s, 1 Invitational (1-3)), which puts me at a 59% win ratio at large, comp REL events, and countless 4-0s and 3-1s at small scale local store events (I've never done worse than 3-1 at regular REL with the deck). 61/14 works for this deck. I have winning ratios against all match-ups.


We could probably shave that 14th land, but for reasons mentioned in Koby's post, 13 feels light sometimes, and I tend to play against a lot of Wasteland decks. And for anecdotal evidence, sometimes 14 can be risky, one of my round losses at the most recent open was due to never seeing more than 2 lands during the ENTIRE round.


Probe helps with LDV, can get us a few lifepoints lower when we want to Children but can't draw another 7, provides info, lets us keep greedy hands (sometimes), helps Cabal Therapy, and is free card draw. I may board the card out in most of my matches, but g1, I want all 4.

Reanimate is a slot we could cut, but as mentioned in other posts, it opens up some solid lines of play that the 4th Goryo's doesn't add, and dipping below 8 reanimation spells would cut down on our consistency.

I'm not a fan of cutting an LDV since that card has been clutch for me every time I cast it. Nothing else in the deck digs as hard, and it is great for setting up t3 combo kills.

The Thoughtseize/Silence slot seems to be the least risky slot to cut. Thoughtseize can sometimes help us combo, but Silence usually eats a counterspell if we ever see it g1 (which is working as intended, honestly). Silence is an awkward pitch to Chrome Mox, and we need to keep our life loss in check with the Thoughtseize. I think if we want to try a slot for the Diamond, this is the one.

I just returned to the game on Thursday and thought TinFins looked like a blast to play. I Played in a 25-30 man tournament this weekend and saw a ton of Cloudpost and was curious how you guys may have played differently as I am horrible at Magic now haha(quit right before Kamigawa). I basically didn't know how to respond to Bojuka Bog and Vesuva's on Bojuka Bog in my 3 matches against Cloudpost. I named Crop Rotation off of Cabal Therapy and when I boarded in Pithing Needle I would name Top/Expedition Map or Candelabra the one time I saw it.
Ultimately I felt like these were just games where I needed to take a step back and try and get the mana/rituals to just play over the top of a GY removal effect with a secondary Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance; but they seemed to always be able to get a Primeval Titan out before I could get the mana I needed. This seems like a situation where I just needed to know how the deck interactions work with Post as well as mulligan decisions. I tried to find hands that were explosive because I felt disruption would be weak against a grip with a lot of lands. Do you guys have any recommendations on playing against Post?

PS. This is a great thread with info on learning the deck. Thanks Acclimation for your post on sideboarding; it helped me a lot against DnT.

SCG…TACOMA


4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox

1 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Æons Torn

1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate

1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard

2 Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Serenity
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Silence
3 Pithing Needle



R1: Gavin (Jund) 0-2 L
R2: Richard (Merfolk) 0-2 L

at this point I have attempted the combo 0 times and lost both die rolls. Gavin is a local Vancouver degenerate who had T1, T2 DRS G1, then top decks thoughtseize T1 G2 after i had thoughtseized him to protect my t2 kill (TS, Therapy, Goryo's, Griselbrand, Land, Land, Petal)—then he played Tarmogoyf and i bricked. sat next to Huey, who was run over by a neophyte delver player who didn't know who he was. this format has VERY powerful cards.

round 2 was fish vs bricks, Richard was a good player who dazed his own Lord played off a cavern in order to deny me a final turn by using the replayed island to activate his mutavault. he said after G2 "you must be a combo player having a bad day; hope your luck turns around!"

thanks, Richard…

R3: John (Domain Zoo) 2-0 W
R4: James (Sneak and Show) 2-0 W
R5: Justin (Merfolk) 2-1 W

two goldfish games in a row, followed by a merfolk match where i had information and redundancy. John was amazed at what the deck could do (i almost had to loop the deck g2 as the last dark ritual was the last card in the deck…). James bricked so hard in G1 he scooped without even seeing my combo, and i nailed 2 show and tells on a blind therapy in G2 (he guessed i'd name Sneak but he wouldn't have had the mana until after i had gone off). against Justin, i combed around daze G1, bricked G2, and ran the first of two goryo's into swan song T2, then silenced him T3 before letting a cute little bird join emrakul and grizzlebizzle for 24 in the air.

at this point i'm thinking my luck has changed…

R6: Stuart (Burn) 1-2 L
R7: Jamal (Manaless Dredge) 1-1 L

Stuart goldfishes me G1, I play it safe and reanimate on consecutive turns (gaining life) in G2 (i've seen his mindbreak trap and have decided he has a strange hate package). G3 i'm unable to go off and pass the turn at 5 life while he's stuck on a goblin guide and 1 mountain with fireblast and rift bolt in hand, and he draws Reckless Charge…and thats the card that _really_ ended my quest for cash.

Jamal is a nice enough dude who is a dedicated dredge player—he's sitting at table 62 at the start of the round. I'm at 61 with a very quiet guy named Matt who barely looks up when i said hello—we shuffle up and resolve mulligans. Turns out that I was wrong and Matt's opponent was late…I realized this when Jamal started calling out for Chad, his opponent. My first thought is "huhn, what are the chances of there being a Chad sitting right next to me" quickly followed by "crap, pretty slim, better double-check my pairing". i slide over and apologize, when none other than Mirkwood stalwart David Miller comes by to drop off the pairings slip with 90 seconds on the clock—and hands me a game loss. apparently it hasn't been 5 mins grace for about 3 years, and game losses are immediate now… i'm either too tilted, disinterested or tired to appeal.

here i am, down a game to dredge with no sideboarding allowed. i still like myself on the play, so i put myself on it. luckily for me (since he's manaless) i had a thoughtseize and cabal therapy hand with a couple of cantrips…and he lets TS resolve after cycling a street wraith. his hand includes force, probe, probe. i take the force (time walk!) and then therapy probe (two more time walks!) and then get to 'tripping. he finally gets going and his 2 or 3 ichorids…putting me to 3. I LDV to 1, hit the entomb, then go off on my last turn (had to attack first but managed to tendrils him). G3 i open surgical and double needle! i surgical ichorid as soon as he dredges it, then slam needle on phantasmagorian, followed by Azami. turns out he's on the dread return kill instead of the Azami, and gets me from 10 life with Balustrade spy into 2 flayer triggers and one from a BIG grave troll. not much the second needle could have done there. he apologizes over the game loss situation, then his friend (not him) offers me a handshake when i'm clearly disappointed at the situation and i no-sir him pretty hard.

i desideboard and sit at the table for a little while.

sdematt asks me if i want to drop and come for coffee, given that i'm firmly out of the money, but i want some more games to assess the variance in the deck and to have some more fun instead of ending on a poor note.

R8 Unknown... 2-0 W
R9 Johnnie Walker (Affinity) 2-0 W

now for the awkwardness. no opponent R8, so i casually destroy Vancouver action addict Marcel on Patriot in some fun fast and loose games (his opponent also didn't show). I think he won one out of 6 or 7? Jordan Aisaka shows up and pilots the deck for fun while I drink a blessed cappuccino.

R9 is also a goldfish—though there was an awkward moment when i go off T2 on the play casting Shallow Grave having binned griselbrand through cabal therapy and my opponent (surprisingly) has spell pierce. i happily pay as i've played dark ritual (and have noted storm and floating mana on my note pad). my opponent says "when did you play dark ritual?"—he seems to have missed it and claims to have been reading shallow grave, and tells the judge we called that he would have countered the dark ritual. i feel bad since i may have mistaken his non-response to my ritual as passing priority (he snap let therapy resolve), but since he's seen my hand already and i've noted storm and floating mana the judge i've provided enough information for Johnnie. We both mull to 5 G3 (mine is forced as i somehow only present 2/3 of my deck and ) and I T1 ponder into the nuts T2 kill if he taps out (which he does to put me from 19 to 11!!!). I apologize about the mixup and we share some bad judge interaction stories, including my ridiculous GP Denver R1 tale (inquire within).

4-4 in matches played, 10 - 8 in games.

Die Rolls: L - L - L - W - W - W - L - * - W
Win/Loss: L - L - W - W - W -L - L - * - W

My Scissors Lizard completed the set and i only had one opponent no-sir me on Rock-Paper-Scissors on the day (i then won the die roll!). Also picked up some japanese commander goodies. Got to chat with Joe Lossett, the Victorians (including T8 Elf devotee SpencerS), eventual winner and TinFins connoisseur phazonmutant, and watch a local sneak'n'show player misdirect a chain lightning after having emrakul'd my eventual burn opponent for the win. I also drew the last card in my deck (the last dark ritual) against zoo in order to cast the tendrils for the win.

Thanks to Mr. Shine for the electronic music library making the drive back seem to take no time and to sdematt and co for lends and good company on the way down.

PDX, i'm picking a deck next week and coming for you in June.

Hey, great report. I'm curious...did you find the 14th land handy? Did Mox Diamond help you?

Dave

Should have just gone for it G2 of Round 1!

Good report though, bad breaks on the Dredge loss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StackOverflow

I just returned to the game on Thursday and thought TinFins looked like a blast to play. I Played in a 25-30 man tournament this weekend and saw a ton of Cloudpost and was curious how you guys may have played differently as I am horrible at Magic now haha(quit right before Kamigawa). I basically didn't know how to respond to Bojuka Bog and Vesuva's on Bojuka Bog in my 3 matches against Cloudpost. I named Crop Rotation off of Cabal Therapy and when I boarded in Pithing Needle I would name Top/Expedition Map or Candelabra the one time I saw it.
Ultimately I felt like these were just games where I needed to take a step back and try and get the mana/rituals to just play over the top of a GY removal effect with a secondary Shallow Grave/Goryo's Vengeance; but they seemed to always be able to get a Primeval Titan out before I could get the mana I needed. This seems like a situation where I just needed to know how the deck interactions work with Post as well as mulligan decisions. I tried to find hands that were explosive because I felt disruption would be weak against a grip with a lot of lands. Do you guys have any recommendations on playing against Post?

PS. This is a great thread with info on learning the deck. Thanks Acclimation for your post on sideboarding; it helped me a lot against DnT.

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A lot of the time, beating effects like Bojuka Bog, Relic, and DRS that clear cards out of your graveyard can just come down to having enough mana to cast multiple reanimation effects in response.

For example:

Goryo, targeting your Griselbrand
Opponent Crop Rotates
Shallow Grave before it resolves, or in response to the trigger on Bog

You get a Griselbrand, they clear your gy, you continue your business.

Against decks that can clear out your graveyard, it's usually risky business to cast an early Entomb before having the means to cast reanimation of any flavor.

I haven't played against Post, but looking at lists, their plan of attack is to either A)ramp into Eldrazi or B) Show and Tell into Eldrazi. Pretty much any deck with SnT will board them out against us, so they're likely to bring in any sideboarded counterspells and potentially things like Needle, Revoker, and Chalice.

Game 1 is in our favor, we're faster and they have no interaction outside of Crop Rotation for Karakas. I do see lists with mainboard Revokers and Needles though, so if they see a Griselbrand before you can get it onto the field, you could be in trouble.

Since Chalice+Trinket Mage is a thing, I'm likely to bring in Serenity to deal with the artifact hate that they have, and rely on Discard to get clear the way of Crop Rotation and Counterspells. Since they only have the 1 Karakas and I'm bringing in Serenity, I'm not going to bring in my own Needles, and hope that I can beat the odds.

Probably something like
-2 LDV +2 Serenity, leaving in Probes since I want maximum information against them and LDV is going to be slow.

A safer option would probably be something like
-3 Probe -2 LDV
+3 Chain +2 Needle

Needle on Karakas and maybe Relic if they run it (or Top), Chain to bounce their own Needles, Revokers, Chalices (long shot, since it'll likely be on 1). You still have your discard to deal with counterspells and Crop Rotations.


This might all be incorrect though, but if I were on the spot playing against 12-Post, that's how I would go against the deck.

Keep at it, and you'll get "good" eventually :D



@Warfordium

Good report, sucks to see the bricks happen though. Those off days on luck are rough.

How did the Mox feel?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

This might all be incorrect though, but if I were on the spot playing against 12-Post, that's how I would go against the deck.

Keep at it, and you'll get "good" eventually :D

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Thanks for the in depth reply. I played again last night trying out some different starting hands and having some awkward plays with an opposing Chains of Mephistopheles on the the board. Definitely wasn't expecting it haha. I am going to try mulliganing more aggresively in the future and see where that takes me, as well as trying to accumulate more mana to play over the top of hate. Overall the deck is a blast to play; my local meta consists of lots of MD grave hate it is definitely a learning experience. :D

I've actually been playing mostly Turbo Eldrazi lately, so I think I can give some pointers on that matchup.

Game 1 is better for Turbo Eldrazi than you think, depending on the build. Most builds have at least 3 pieces of interaction Game 1:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm

All of which can be Crop Rotated for, or Expedition Map. Personally, I also play 2 maindeck Pithing Needle along with 2 Trinket Mage in Eldrazi which can be really rough for Tin Fins Game 1 if drawn (ask Richard Cheese - he didn't enjoy our match a couple of weeks ago).

In the sideboard, I'm personally packing a ton of countermagic (more like older Rock Lee builds) - but a lot of them have been eschewing that for more things against discard decks (Obstinate Baloth, etc.). I also run 1 Chalice of the Void as a Trinket Mage target.

If I'm on Tin Fins - go off as fast as possible when you see Trop -> Sensei's Divining Top Game 1. Post Board games, bring in Silences, Pithing Needles, and maybe Serenity. Needle on Top is really really good against them, or Karakas if you need to. Use your discard liberally - but they are almost 100% boarding out Show and Tell and Candelabra, so I wouldn't be naming those.

Tin Fins is favored, but a good Turbo Eldrazi pilot can surprise you. Also, advice like Acclimation gave (make sure you can respond to a Crop Rotation with another Reanimation spell) is very key.

@Richard Cheese i didn't have a t1 as it was 2 land 1 petal, not the other way around.

The mox diamond was great. I opened both moxes once, but that hand also had brainstorm and entomb, so i kept ;) I ended up on 5 mana on turn 2 when going off once (can't quite remember which round) thanks to having two moxes. it was nice not having to pitch business after going off—you almost always have a spare land rather than business you don't want.

Oh, for more entombs. thats all the deck wants.

I can also echo favorable usage of Mox Diamond, as I got an opportunity to use it pre-combo and it was great! So far, liking the swap for Silence. We'll find out this weekend how well that works if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.

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Originally Posted by .dk

I've actually been playing mostly Turbo Eldrazi lately, so I think I can give some pointers on that matchup.

Game 1 is better for Turbo Eldrazi than you think, depending on the build. Most builds have at least 3 pieces of interaction Game 1:

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm

All of which can be Crop Rotated for, or Expedition Map. Personally, I also play 2 maindeck Pithing Needle along with 2 Trinket Mage in Eldrazi which can be really rough for Tin Fins Game 1 if drawn (ask Richard Cheese - he didn't enjoy our match a couple of weeks ago).

In the sideboard, I'm personally packing a ton of countermagic (more like older Rock Lee builds) - but a lot of them have been eschewing that for more things against discard decks (Obstinate Baloth, etc.). I also run 1 Chalice of the Void as a Trinket Mage target.

If I'm on Tin Fins - go off as fast as possible when you see Trop -> Sensei's Divining Top Game 1. Post Board games, bring in Silences, Pithing Needles, and maybe Serenity. Needle on Top is really really good against them, or Karakas if you need to. Use your discard liberally - but they are almost 100% boarding out Show and Tell and Candelabra, so I wouldn't be naming those.

Tin Fins is favored, but a good Turbo Eldrazi pilot can surprise you. Also, advice like Acclimation gave (make sure you can respond to a Crop Rotation with another Reanimation spell) is very key.

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Doesn't help when your opponent knows exactly what you're on and drops needle on Grizzlebees turn one...but yeah it's harder than you'd think on the surface, because Crop Rot can tutor for several relevant cards that we don't really have great answers for. Try to catch them early, esp. if they don't have access to green yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Doesn't help when your opponent knows exactly what you're on and drops needle on Grizzlebees turn one...but yeah it's harder than you'd think on the surface, because Crop Rot can tutor for several relevant cards that we don't really have great answers for. Try to catch them early, esp. if they don't have access to green yet.

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Fair point - advance knowledge certainly helped - but I don't think it's quite a cakewalk either.

Took me a while to find my game slips but here's my results at seattle this weekend. First my list

4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 entomb
4 shallow grave
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 cabal therapy
4 gitaxian probe
3 goryo's vengeance
2 thoughtseize
3 griselbrand
1 emrakul
1 children of korlis
1 LDV
1 tendrils of agony
1 reanimate
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
3 underground sea
4 polluted delta
3 marsh flats
1 tundra
1 scrubland
1 island
1 swamp

SB
3 silence
2 surgical
2 pithing needle
2 serenity
1 echoing truth
2 chain of vapour
2 massacre
1 pull from eternity

R1 Elves won the roll

G1: I mull to 6 and get the perfect T1 kill, I FoW check without knowing what he's on and attack for 22. Risky play but I like being a game up rather then one down.
G2: I board in 2 chain's and a needle and mull all the way down to 4 keeping fetch UG sea ponder and entomb, whatevr this is the best its gonna get so I keep. He plays bayou and thoughtseize taking the ponder. My turn I draw Brainstorm and play sea and pass. He cabal therapys and I entomb in response putting griselbees in the bin and he names shallow grave. My turn i rip a goryo's vengeance and fetch and go off. weeeeeeee!!1!

1-0

R2 BUG delver lose roll

G1: I keep a good turn 2 hand with a seize if hes on blue, sure enough he is and he plays sea delver pass. I play land go hoping to bs eot to find IMS to pay for seize. I find ritual and petal and play land petal seize seeing pierce FoW and no other blue card so i take pierce and go off with tendrils chain.
G2:I put him on permanent hate and put in chain's and needles. I keep a risky T1 6 and just hope he doesnt have a force, but of course he does and I cant get anything going before his delver and goyf kill me. During those turns he plays a crypt and thats all I see from his board.
G3: I keep a double entomb ponder brainstorm thought seize hand hoping to get something quickly. I t1 seize him seeing delver Fow daze thoughtseize and lands I take the force and see what i can get on my brainstorm. He seizes back and I entomb binning bee's. My turn I bs seeing a reanimate and petal, play petal and reanimate he makes me pay and within 14 cards i see enough to get a spaghetti monster and attack for 22.

2-0

R3 Manaless dredge lose roll and he wants the draw

G1: I instantly put him on dredge and keep an excellent 6 and just straight kill him T1 with a tendrils chain.
G2: 2 surgicals in and I mull pretty hard going to 5 with a ponder sea fetch brainstorm and entomb hand. After playing a sea and pass he bins a phantasmagorian and i knows he's gonna get stupid at eot so I BS and see nothing. Play ponder and see a shallow grave and no way to cast it this turn so i draw it and try for an eot entomb. I dont get another turn as he double activates phantasm twice binning 2 trolls and a ichorid. Then cycles street wraith and dredges 6 then on his turn probes and does it again getting a griselbrand 2 narc's and ichorid and returns grisel to dredge his library and kill me with a flayer'd troll.
G3: I punt really hard after G2 forgetting that needle hits phantasmagorian and dont board anything besides surgical and echoing truth again. I go to 6 and see an awesome hand of T1 win. I go for it thinking im good and he macbre's my griselbrand in response to shallow grave. I shoo;ld have seen it coming but Id rather lose to a card he actually had then playing careful. He has to draw for a couple turns then bins phantasmagorian and double acvtivates and has 2 wraiths this time basicly doing the same thing.

2-1

R4 Painter with white win roll

G1: I get a brainstorm reanimate petal entomb ponder lands hand. I just go for it and put a 7/7 into play and lose 8. Which he just scoops without me seeing a play.
G2: I board in needles and chains and see a turn one trinsphere. Oh crap long game, I brick for a bit and he just starts dropping bridges and cannonists, and beats me with some grey ogres, grizzly bears and goblins.
G3: I say screw it and go deep with boarding putting in massacres along with chains, needle and the echoing truth. I open a good hand with shallow grave, goryo's, dark rit, ponder brainstorm and lands. I play fetch and pass thinking i might see a turn 1 moon but he just plays top and passes. I eot brainstorm seeing fetch and discard. i put one discard and fetch back drawing fetch for turn. I play it, and play ponder seeing bricks, shuffle and draw brainstorm. He uses top in upkeep and draws then flips top to discard ssg and play cannonist off a fetch and plateau. I draw ponder and ponder seeing echoing truth, grisselbrand and petal. I keep all on top and draw lotus petal and play it then during his turn i BS and grab therapy. On his turn he plays thalia and i have to wait for more mana. So now i have grisselbee's shallow, goryo's, therapy, echoing truth and dark rit. I draw a ponder and see nothing besides brainstorm and lands. I keep and draw a fetch so i dont get BS locked next turn. He plays a welder and a Imp recruiter getting a painter. I draw brainstorm and wait till his eot and play it to shuffle and thin if the draw is bad. I draw ponder needle and massacre and keep putting back needle and ponder. Draw ponder for turn play massacre paying 1 wipe his board then do off with dark rit and therapy. He cant believe i boarded massacre and neither can i but whatev's it just got me a win.

3-1

R4: DnT lose roll
G1 and 2: These games are actually just the worst and I mull down to 4 both games trying to see either just lands and spells or any kind of action. I dont think he knew what i has on after game one cuz all he saw was a fetch sea and 2 ponders. Game 2 T2 thalia and t3 spirit end the game quickly and I scoop at 5 with nothing and still have 40 mins on the clock so I go get some lunch.

3-2

R5: Ant lose roll
G1: I open perfect 7 and think for a few after he snap keeps. I see turn one fetch for island and ponder, which gets me curious but after i just smash for 22 and think for a min i put him on ant.
G2: I keep a good hand of cantrips and fetchs with entomb and silence. He turn one ponders and keeps making think hes got a good hand so i play fetch and pass in case i have to silence him. He brainstorms and plays fetch after drawing then brainstorms again and I just Bs after getting a sea seeing another brainstorm and fetch. I basically do the same thing again playing a fetch and waiting with 2 brainstorms and a ponder in hand. He draws and opens with a lotus petal I guess that hes trying for it and after him playing a dark ritual and a Led I silence, off a tundra. I brainstorm off my sea and see no discard to slow him down so I hope I waited long enough to play silence. I draw for turn and have to pass. He draws plays land and dark rit's then plays 2 petals and a infernal tutor and I expect to die off adnauseum. Instead he flips just total bricks and goes from 18 to 5 quickly drawing his tendrils and PiF but no IMS he starts flipping slowly going down 1 or 2 at a time goes to 4 then says dead and scoops drawing his EtW. Aiya.

4-2

R6 Belcher win roll
G1: He shows up just as they start the round and he looks rushed, I snap keep a T2 hand I see turn one taiga putting him on zoo and i just dont care and go off smashing for 22.
G2: His T1 i see a land grant and pass, good thing I kept a thoughtseize hand grab his burning wish when all he needs is 2 mana to get going. We play draw go for a few turns with me playing ponders and brainstorms. I finally get a good brainstorm off main phase and is he doesnt kill me I can go off next turn. I cabal mtherapy him naming burning wish again and see nothing besides ramp. I go off next turn tendrils him for a lot.

5-2

R7 Uwr delver Lose roll
G1: It getting late and Im tired so i just keep a good 7 and just FoW check T1 which he has and I lose quickly to a double flipped delvers.
G2: I get another good 7 T2 hand and expect he doesnt keep in daze on the draw and after he taps out for a delver I FoW check and the coast is clear attack for 22.
G3: Mull to 5 with a T2 hand and punt not checking his hand with a probe that i just drew and run into a daze after he taps out for a ponder. the next few turns I see in this sequence Him- meddling mage naming goryo's, Me- silence, Him- meddling mage naming shallow grave, Me- silence, Him- meddling mage naming massacre, Me- silence you can guess how this game goes

5-3

I decide to play as the others in my car are in the money and if i win and get lucky i might make $$$

R8 Mud lose roll
G1: T1 chalice for one I dont play anything and just scoop at 8 with a wurmcoil out.
G2: I keep a good turn 2 hand and he just plays sol land grim monolith and trisphere. I draw go and he untaps and plays another sol land and plays metalworker. Draw go land go from me he reveals 4 artifacts and plays double lodestone golem. Awesome, I die a couple turns later.

5-4

I am really happy with the deck and wouldn't change a thing MD I think SB should be more artifact hate as I keep losing to random chalice or trinsphere decks. I def. should of got rid of the pull from eternity but I keep seeing extirpate in my local meta and just wanted a out, never used it all day. Im happy for the way I played and for the amount of actual playing and testing I do I was surprised I was able make so few mistakes.

Props to sdematt for finally caving a playing a blue spell in a sanctioned event, I never thought I'd see the day.

Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

(these were some good words) if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.

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What is this if?

Go #griselbanned or go home

@warfordium

Glad to hear about the Mox Diamond.

Looks like I'll have to pick one up in the near future.

@.dk

I'm less worried about Glacial Chasm, since it doesn't stop Tendrils and Emrakul does a good job of clearing it away.

Don't think the match-up is a cake walk, but going in blind, we should be in a good place.

Crop Rotation is definitely the scariest card in that deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I can also echo favorable usage of Mox Diamond, as I got an opportunity to use it pre-combo and it was great! So far, liking the swap for Silence. We'll find out this weekend how well that works if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.

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DOIT and get on camera for us, been AGES since we had Tin Fins doing it's thang on camera.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by warfordium

<REPORT>

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Good seeing you in Seattle! Sorry to hear about the bricks... :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

What is this if?

Go #griselbanned or go home

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Koby is still trying to get me to play TinFins at LA. It is pretty pimped out... I'll be picking up the last German FBB dual there.

Edit: Dammit! There were two MP German Tundras on SCG this morning but they must have gotten bought before I got my store credit. Oh well, I'll get an Italian.

Quote:

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The mox diamond was great. I opened both moxes once, but that hand also had brainstorm and entomb, so i kept ;) I ended up on 5 mana on turn 2 when going off once (can't quite remember which round) thanks to having two moxes. it was nice not having to pitch business after going off—you almost always have a spare land rather than business you don't want.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I can also echo favorable usage of Mox Diamond, as I got an opportunity to use it pre-combo and it was great! So far, liking the swap for Silence. We'll find out this weekend how well that works if I end up choosing to play Tin Fins at #SCGLA.

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This is really good to hear. I'm finding it to be invaluable. As I'm getting more familiar with the deck, I'm agreeing that 15 land is too much. I think, as others have stated, that 14 is right. I know some players drop to 13 when they board...but to me that would be lite with a Mox Diamond in the list. The Diamond has been so strong that I will continue to run 14 land with a Diamond and a Chrome.

Quote:

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I am really happy with the deck and wouldn't change a thing MD I think SB should be more artifact hate as I keep losing to random chalice or trinsphere decks. I def. should of got rid of the pull from eternity but I keep seeing extirpate in my local meta and just wanted a out, never used it all day. Im happy for the way I played and for the amount of actual playing and testing I do I was surprised I was able make so few mistakes.

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I'm seeing this too. I have lost to Tez, Lands w/Sphere of Resistance, and to Dragon Stompy(!!!). The Tez and Stomply ran Sol lands and dropped Chalice and/or Trinisphere so fast my head spun. The games were a joke. There has to be a way to stop the bleeding, and I'd love to hear some ideas.

BTW, Joey V. is running a list now that I LOVE. Hopefully he will post it after SCG LA this week. Wish I could go. :-(

Dave

True, Chasm isn't game over by any means, but can be a speed bump if you happen to brick on making emrakul pre-combat.

Glad to hear that the Mox Diamond testing has been going well. If only I had more time, I'd test on MODO with this beast...

hurkyls recall , or rebuild could work as it hits all the artifacts and cannonist as well.

That's generally the idea behind Serenity, as it frees up your mana for your turn to do the combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

That's generally the idea behind Serenity, as it frees up your mana for your turn to do the combo.

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Indeed, I went up to 3 serenity because my meta is filled with dark dpths decks running chalice and sphere of resistance. Once you 6 for 1 somebody, you never go back :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

That's generally the idea behind Serenity, as it frees up your mana for your turn to do the combo.

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True, and I run 2 of them. I think I will bump to three like cogitoergosum mentioned. Two doesn't seem to be enough when you're going to be facing down a turn-one Chalice or Trinisphere at our local store. Mulling to 5 just to find a Serenity isn't really the best of all strategies. It might not be appropriate to run three at a large event though.

Thanks.

i didn't board in serenity once at SCG Seattle… i chose pithing needle and silence as the 3-of hate slots. it is great, mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by warfordium

i didn't board in serenity once at SCG Seattle… i chose pithing needle and silence as the 3-of hate slots. it is great, mind.

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I also run 2 Needles in the board, but they don't do anything against Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Pithing Needle, and Phyrexian Revoker...

Serenity is a card that you can never board in for multiple tournaments, but more than pays off for the one time you play against Hate Rocks.

3 is a good call if that's what your meta is weak to.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I also run 2 Needles in the board, but they don't do anything against Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Pithing Needle, and Phyrexian Revoker...

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I usually see Revoker from decks which also run swords to plowshares—one reason why i debated a 3rd massacre as well. sorry to hear that you're fighting MUDslides

I'm all ears if we feel that there needs to be an update for the sideboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I'm all ears if we feel that there needs to be an update for the sideboard.

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I think it's situation/meta dependent. Our tournaments are small...last week we only had 22 people. Sometimes we see multiples of decks on the same night, and the small turnout can skew what you play against. One night, I had to play against 3 Dredge decks in a row. I like the following as a general board:

SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

But on the nights that I hear we'll have multiple Dredge decks, I run:

SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence

We don't see Death and Taxes unless I play it...so Massacre in our area isn't so good.

Last week we had 2 ANT and one Tin Fins decks. Makes me want to run Mindbreak Trap in the board...

I may have to run:

SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Serenity
SB: 3 Silence
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

Again, our local store is probably not the best way to prepare for a true meta environment. While we do see a lot of Tier1 decks, sometimes we see them in clumps of 3 (3 UWr Miracles; 3 Dredge; 3 Artifact-based; 3 Storm, etc.) ... all on the same night.

Blah. I need to go to a big tournament!

it just seems harder to find white and serenity for a board full of hate then it is blue. ill add a another serenity and see what it does bit i think paying 1-2 for a petal and a turn later another 2 for serenity seems weaker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by D@N

it just seems harder to find white and serenity for a board full of hate then it is blue. ill add a another serenity and see what it does bit i think paying 1-2 for a petal and a turn later another 2 for serenity seems weaker.

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Yeah, that's why I run 2 Scrublands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

I'm all ears if we feel that there needs to be an update for the sideboard.

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How often are you guys even using surgical? Against other graveyard and combo decks, we are usually faster. The main time it is useful for me is against loam wasteland decks with chalice, which is fairly niche. I think two may be correct amount, leaving a flex spot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogitoergosum

How often are you guys even using surgical? Against other graveyard and combo decks, we are usually faster. The main time it is useful for me is against loam wasteland decks with chalice, which is fairly niche. I think two may be correct amount, leaving a flex spot.

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You can also use it as a defense. They Surgical you, you Surgical yourself in response, fail to find in your library, and save yourself from losing all of your cards.

I only really bring in Surgical against the following decks:

Dredge (they can win faster than us, esp with Cabal Therapy to disrupt)
Storm combo (generally ANT, rather than TES)
Reanimator
Miracles (replacing Gitaxian Probe as a source of information + SDT disruption)
Lands / Loam-Wasteland decks

I don't really bother against Loam decks however, since that's asking for a lot of things to go severely wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by D@N

it just seems harder to find white and serenity for a board full of hate then it is blue. ill add a another serenity and see what it does bit i think paying 1-2 for a petal and a turn later another 2 for serenity seems weaker.

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Finding White is easy with 8 fetches.

@cog
Surgical is great as an information source against some FoW decks, if I bring one in, I'll sometimes hit a Brainstorm early on just to get some info and potentially leave them with awkward hands. Probably not optimal, but it works.



Sideboards should definitely be fluid based on your meta. In previous posts, I mentioned how I ran more Needles or more Extractions based on what I was seeing around me at any given tournament, sometimes bumping up to the full 15 if necessary.

At a larger event though, I highly recommend sticking with the current one, I haven't had any issues with the sideboard at any event larger than 50 people.

Being in a MUD heavy environment must be painful though, to hell with that.

Hey guys,
I just got done playing the deck on MTGO all night. I'm not a good player by any means, but I noticed a few things.
If I burn my ponder/brainstorms and fail to find combo, I feel like I just flounder for several turns while getting poked by goyfs and delvers.
Also, recovering from a Hymn or Thoughtseize, especially when they've also got counters for whatever they dont take, seems impossible.
As others have said, Entomb seems like the weak part of the combo. Has Snapcaster been discussed as a backup entomb? Intuition kind of does the same thing, but Snapcaster might be more versatile and gives us a body to sac to Therapy.

Too often I find myself with Goryo's/Shallow in hand and I find Emrakul or Gris in a ponder/storm, but I don't have any Therapy/Thoughtseize so I just shuffle them back in. Has anyone tried Careful Studys with 3-4 Gris?

I'm liking Mox Diamond a lot. If I get pretty low on life before I get Gris out and can only draw 14, it basically acts as another Lotus Petal to get Dark Rituals and Children out. I've also had it be the difference between getting my storm count or not.
This deck seems super tough to tune because its half storm, half reanimator so it suffers from both kinds of sideboard hate, and the more you go for the reanimator plan (ie careful studies and more gris as mentioned) the worse the storm plan gets/higher chance of fizzling. But during Gris draws, Careful Study might be useful. Draw 2, discard 2 lands - so it potentially trades 2 things that are of no use for more petals/rituals or the entomb we need for Emrakul. We can toss Children with it and reanimate, but with the benefit of drawing 2 additional cards. I really don't see the discard 2 as a drawback mid-combo; it's a better enabler than brainstorm and ponder at that stage.

Throwing out some random ideas - sideboard spinning darkness versus aggro? up storm count for free essentially and can potentially heal to allow an additional 7 draw.

Moat seems like it might warrant a SB slot if it weren't for white being so sparse.

What about Isochron Scepter? Goryo's/Shallow Grave, or an entomb, silence, etc. on a stick seems good in drawn out games vs control.

Another thing, why don't we use Orim's Chant instead of Silence? Simply because of Leyline of Sanctity / Misdirection? Seems like it would be worth the trade off.



Sorry if that was poorly written but I just spent 10 hours on MTGO and my mind is fried.

This is probably a bad idea, but back to the conversation of what cards are available as mana sources/ rituals to prevent combo from fizzling, how about a singleton burnt offering or cabal ritual to keep the combo going?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vizari

Hey guys,
I just got done playing the deck on MTGO all night. I'm not a good player by any means, but I noticed a few things.
If I burn my ponder/brainstorms and fail to find combo, I feel like I just flounder for several turns while getting poked by goyfs and delvers.
Also, recovering from a Hymn or Thoughtseize, especially when they've also got counters for whatever they dont take, seems impossible.

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That happens with any combo deck, or any deck period, which is why BUG is a strong deck. Just have to fight through it and recognize that sometimes you aren't the one getting to do your beats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vizari

As others have said, Entomb seems like the weak part of the combo. Has Snapcaster been discussed as a backup entomb? Intuition kind of does the same thing, but Snapcaster might be more versatile and gives us a body to sac to Therapy.

---

Snapcaster was discussed a few pages back. Some people liked it, but I'm not sure if it got dropped from their lists. There is probably a really solid SCM build that we haven't made up yet, probably one that runs a higher land count so you can regularly reach 3-4 mana for SCM+spell.

Intuition I tried personally, and didn't like it. 3 mana is too much for this deck (or at least my build).

That is why we run Lim-Dul's Vault in the list, it helps us find Entomb or any other business spell, and is reliably castable in our deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vizari

Too often I find myself with Goryo's/Shallow in hand and I find Emrakul or Gris in a ponder/storm, but I don't have any Therapy/Thoughtseize so I just shuffle them back in. Has anyone tried Careful Studys with 3-4 Gris?

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This is another thing people have tried in the past, and was discussed somewhat recently too. Some people liked how it played and set their lists up to be closer to a reanimator build. Personally, I don't like the CDA that Study brings, and running more than 2 Griselbrand doesn't sound ideal to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vizari

This deck seems super tough to tune because its half storm, half reanimator so it suffers from both kinds of sideboard hate, and the more you go for the reanimator plan (ie careful studies and more gris as mentioned) the worse the storm plan gets/higher chance of fizzling. But during Gris draws, Careful Study might be useful. Draw 2, discard 2 lands - so it potentially trades 2 things that are of no use for more petals/rituals or the entomb we need for Emrakul. We can toss Children with it and reanimate, but with the benefit of drawing 2 additional cards. I really don't see the discard 2 as a drawback mid-combo; it's a better enabler than brainstorm and ponder at that stage.

Throwing out some random ideas - sideboard spinning darkness versus aggro? up storm count for free essentially and can potentially heal to allow an additional 7 draw.

Moat seems like it might warrant a SB slot if it weren't for white being so sparse.

What about Isochron Scepter? Goryo's/Shallow Grave, or an entomb, silence, etc. on a stick seems good in drawn out games vs control.

Another thing, why don't we use Orim's Chant instead of Silence? Simply because of Leyline of Sanctity / Misdirection? Seems like it would be worth the trade off.

---

Going back to Careful Study, I've noticed that the times I need to dig more mid combo but can't draw 7 and have enough mana to cast a cantrip happen less than the games that I can't find the missing mana to continue going off.

For the sideboard ideas:

What aggro decks? We are faster than all of the Aggro decks in the format, and the cards we bring in against these decks are to fight off any sort of hate piece they bring in against combo decks, which can often be something that isn't a creature. Upping storm count isn't something that's necessary against these decks, since our combo provides enough storm to win (rit entomb shallow grave, swing with Griselbrand, petal rit rit tendrils=21 life loss/damage). Using it before combo is highly unlikely, and mid combo not terribly relevant, IMO.

Why Moat? With 8 fetches, we can make WW happen, but at 4 mana? What does Moat do for us, where do you want to bring it in?

Scepter is an interesting suggestion, but I feel that it's a slow one.

Orim's Chant targets, and Misdirection is a commonly played spell, on top of LLOS. We don't need to spend WW to prevent attacking, that's slowing us down.


Out of curiosity, what decks did you play against? What list were you playing? Since you admit to being a "not good player," then there are probably lots of small things that you are doing incorrectly that we can help you with. The deck isn't an easy one to play, but we can help you to be a better player.






@cogitoergosum

The problem I have with Burnt Offering is that it requires a creature on the field. Children does nothing to fuel this, and while Griselbrand will give us all of the mana, I feel that the card will be dead more often than not.

Cabal Ritual isn't a bad one, but the 2 cmc cost is rough.

I've always felt that my bottleneck mid combo was not drawing a Petal type effect to continue, and Cabal Ritual isn't easily cast in that situation.

I think a Snapcaster Mage build could get away with a singleton Culling the Weak though. Not sure what the most optimal build would be for that though.

I'm off and on with Snapcaster. I like him, but my list doesn't stay the same for long. I'm always testing different things. I can say to a solid conclusion that Snapcaster is very bad in any Tin Fins version that runs any Dazes. Discard and Silence effects only. The obvious problem is that it occasionally interferes with Shallow Grave's antics when it's in the graveyard. The deck can handle it, but you have to be a pretty good player and on your game to use him to his pinnacle best, and also not tank on any given game you forget about the bad synergies. Hard to do for 9+ rounds.

I play 2 Careful Study as I too personally think that the bottlenecking at Entomb is tough to stomach, and I'm somewhat unlucky. I like it, although sometimes its worse than a ponder. It doubles as a "shuffle effect" after a bad brainstorm. moves the top two to the yard. It's not ideal, but anything better won't be printed; just too broken.

Serenity is good. I guess in straight UB builds it would be more appropriate to use Hurkyl's Recall, but here I prefer the Serenity. Hits enchantments. Counterbalance and Rest in Peace. This is valuable in ways that Recall can't hold a candle to.

Vizari mentioned the aggro matchup, and Acclimation asked which aggro decks. My contribution to this would be: Merfolk. In my opinion, it's the premier legacy aggro deck. I realize that goblins is most people's first choice as "premier" aggro decks go, but I playtest against merfolk often and it's...rough. Between Cursecatcher, Daze, FoW, and Standstill it can really get you. That would be enough to go through, but then there's Wastelands and a fair amount of pressure. Massacre is worthless here as it's first off, not free here, and second, it's bad against a list of 10-14 lords. I'm not sure yet exactly what is the best way to win. I do know that boarding out 3 Probes for 3 Silence helps a lot. Paying any life in this matchup is a risk. Don't Thoughtseize unless you are going off, it hurts too much. Therapy on Force/Daze (it's a toss-up). Also, you can put in Needle if you want to name Cursecatcher. It's hit or miss, but can name Vial as well. I haven't boarded it in and hit it pre-combo, so I'm not sure it's worth it.

I don't think additional ritual effects are going to really do much. This deck is kind of like a lottery, and when you have it going it's good. Otherwise...well, you play it. You know.

-ABC