[Deck] Imperial Painter

I think it's playable but very susceptible to removal. Canonist is definitely better in most matchups. Having said that, I still play 3 leylines in my board and don't ever see taking them out in the near future. To the previous poster, I also play a split of 3 petal and 2 monkeys. I made this concession mostly for the white (I play a lot of white SB cards) and due to the interaction of welder. Sometimes you really want to weld something out (eg weld out a revoker in response to a swords) and it's nice to have something in the yard. However, I also started testing against the blue/red welder deck and there sometimes the petals hurt you when your opponent has welders too. Meta call.


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Originally Posted by mcbain

Consult the all mighty front page!

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I might be a bit dum. but re read the orginal topic 3 times. I did not see a complete decklist!
first decklist was post 3 and that used phyrexian metamorph that I don't think is all that clear cut choice for main because of legendary rules have changed!

Can anyone help a stupid idiot out and post me commonly used main and sideboard of red imperial painter build!:)
Thank you.

Try this:
Go to www.mtgtop8.com. Look through decklists as a starting point
Then... Take the information from page 1, discussions here, and your personal preferences and make adjustments.


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The last major tournament showing from the mono red version was an impressive 1st place at the starcitygames.com open by Greg Smith. For all the talk about the splash white version the mono-red is the only recent version to take first at a major event.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6724&f=LE

Not that the white splash is bad at all, but Greg made a good choice for the meta and ran 6 moon effects main and extra blasts, and it paid off.

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Originally Posted by pinkfrosting

The last major tournament showing from the mono red version was an impressive 1st place at the starcitygames.com open by Greg Smith. For all the talk about the splash white version the mono-red is the only recent version to take first at a major event.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6724&f=LE

Not that the white splash is bad at all, but Greg made a good choice for the meta and ran 6 moon effects main and extra blasts, and it paid off.

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Your take on why the mono red version did well is interesting. I really don't think that it was the one extra moon effect that would have put him over the top compared to a r/w version. In fact, I would argue that a r/w version is much more likely to drop a turn 2 moon vs a mono red version due to its ability to tutor up a moon on turn one.
On the other hand, you could make an argument that the burn plus Chandras are the biggest deviation from a typical r/w version of iPainter. So if you are comfortable replacing welders and tutors for burn and Chandras then this is your deck. I think most people here would argue the contrary. Of note, a blue/red version of painter (without recruiters) just got second last week. This version is extremely combo oriented without any burn at all.
P.s. Both red/white and mono red IPainter run 6 blast effects main.

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what is the point of playing 3 x fetch in the main?
If you would play ponder or brainstorm type decks or efect that deal with the top card of your own library I would understand it but with only fetchable land in the deck being basic land mountain and also the favourite 1 turn play being magus of the moon. Why do you wanna play fetches?

Should you play lets say 2-3 Great furnace? Sure you open yourself to a rare wasteland more often but there must be places were it works wonders with gobling weilder!:)

Thanks for the post of the decklist I am starting to have intiitive feel, about decklists which might be tweeks. I think that chandra in the main is quite speculative. Most people seem to agree koth being better and also koth being speculative also!:)

So I ask again. Does anyone have untweeked mono red list handy?
I found this:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...daily/deck/468
If I change the ratio to 4 blood moons and 2 magus of the moon this seems closest I have been able to find. But still I think figure of destiny and magma jet's seem a bit weird! XD

@vhirvela

read the entire goddamn first page, not just the first post. Reading before asking is tech. every question you have has already been asked at least twice at some point. there are 3 mono red lists on the first page.

@frosting

white splash has had better placements than mono red since Seth and I came up with the optimal list in January. there are a few i haven't listed yet either.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post708885

GP top 8 by Lejay (white) > northeast 175 person tourney (white) > midwest starcity (red).


To new people in general:

Please read the old thread and the new thread before asking questions like why do we play fetches. Everyone needs to focus on making the deck better, not reverting back to answering questions that have been answered a million times or ones that are obvious if people actually read the threads. The discussion over the last 5-10 pages has not really added any value whatsoever to be honest. When someone (usually a new player) asks a question we all know the answer to, we should link them to jandax's primer, the old thread, and the first page of this thread. Getting swept up in the bullshit doesn't help anyone.

I'm being a dick, but it's necessary.

I went 2-2 tonight beating Jund and pox and losing to burn and death and taxes. Well the burn is awful I really struggled against dnt.

Game one I started with Blood moon then got top locked.

For game 2 I boarded out 2 REB, 2 blast, 2 moon for 1 bridge 4 firebolt and 1 ratchet bomb.

Turn 3 I play a revoker and have the choice between his Turn one play, mom or his turn 3 play, vial. I go with vial unfortunately the correct call is definitely the mom. Although I get top locked again well he draws an endless stream of relevant cards.

Anyone have an tech they run in a delver, Jund dnt meta. I've been tinkering around with a stone forge Sideboard, although I'm not convinced.

1 sfm
1 jitte
1 Batterskull
1 sword of light and Shadow

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McBain thanks for the post this is good and pushes discussion in the right direction.

Seth knows more about the stoneforge package so I'll leave that to him. Plus, you also faced 4 even to bad matchups, so don't sweat too much.

Obviously the firebolts will work wonders against jund, dnt, and delver. If you want stuff on top of that maybe a tutorable boardwipe like EE. your recruitable options are martyr of ashes, siege gang, or shard Phoenix mainly. Obviously you can skew it further and run stuff like pyroclasm, sudden demise, rolling earthquake if you don't care about being able to tutor it or have the sideboard space to run multiples.




Plus here's a question:

Who has actually tried shard phoenix? Is it too slow? I haven't ever tried it because I do want some grave hate in my board but it's always intrigued me.

Just off the top of my head I feel it's a bomb vs DNT. Think about it, often these games are long drawn out battles which usually end up in a board state resembling a game of EDH.

I feel being able to "Wrath thier board" every turn of would really seal the deal. Thier mom's would really have to work overtime and revoked on her would most certainly be the right call. Moreover the Phoenix dodges swords to plowshares thier principal form of removal. Although revoker is a thing but it's usually sitting on grindstone anyway.



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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Who has actually tried shard phoenix? Is it too slow? I haven't ever tried it because I do want some grave hate in my board but it's always intrigued me.

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I've tried it, and I like it reasonably well. It's true that it's slow, but the ability to reuse it is pretty amazing. It's probably at its best against Death and Taxes, I think, and it's a bit slow for Elves, especially on the draw. I also have tried Bloodfire Dwarf and Martyr of Ashes. I actually like Martyr the least, since it requires you to reveal a red card, which sometimes can't happen.
Dwarf is insane against Elves, and I was using one Dwarf and one Phoenix in my SB for a bit.

I don't really know which one, if any, are correct, but none of them seem blatantly wrong either.

Sulfur Elemental can do some damage to DnT. It doesnt remove stoneforge or Serra Avenger though :(

I haven't tried it in painter (and it isnt tutorable) but it has worked great for me in UWR delver.

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Originally Posted by cab0747

Sulfur Elemental can do some damage to DnT. It doesn't remove stoneforge or Serra Avenger though :(

I haven't tried it in painter (and it isn't tutorable) but it has worked great for me in UWR delver.

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I tried sulfur elemental and found out the following problems with it: it doesn't kill revokers that have named "grindstone"; it's useless against other aggro decks that also give me fits (Elves).

The idea of using Shard Phoenix over and over sounds hilarious. I may have to give that one a go. Plus being old-school has a certain style about it that I like. The only concern I have is the casting cost. And I have had many instances with D&T where they've used ports and wastelands to their advantage and kept me off of my mana development.

Phoenix is unfortunately way too slow vs the decks where u want him. If you even get to cast it.. I'd stay with trusted Pyroclasm.
I've been playing one MD EE in Jack's list and I really like it so far. Already saved me a couple times where I had bridge lock g1 and had to get rid of DRS(s). Getting rid of vials/being awesome against elves aswell. I'm considering to put a 2nd one in the SB..

Electrickery is the best card agaisnt DnT for sure, the most annoying creatures they have have only one toughness...And it is easy to cast and at instant speed...

Otherwise, I am testing Seige gang commander against miracles, an old tech from the past...It is tutorable and can supplement our beat down strategy

I've won a tournament of 32 people in Rome with Imperial Painter, the list is the boros version of the top 8 of GP Paris by Jean-Mary Accart. Undefeated, with a 3-0 and two intentional draws. Thanks to all people that given me some advices and even to all people that has criticized me. The decks I meet was: merfolk, canadian, Food Chain, bug delver, bigger bug, bug control. The deck is going very well even in other little tournaments in Rome. I think that Food Chain is a terrible match-up, but we can lock them in different ways and win with a good race or with a three card combo.

Disappointing end to the latest tales of adventure tourney for me. Will writeup some more in depth stuff later. Beat jund, lost to rug then beat deathblade, rug, and team america. Drew a match against miracles that went forever but i still had a shot to win the super quick game 3 but bricked on a third mana twice. I tilted after that and even knew i was tilting but said screw it im going to try to overpower miracles in the last round and lost miserably. I know I played horrible in that last match and If I had been playing like I normally approach miracles I would have had a decent chance at winning. Just couldn't bring myself to slog through another match so that's on me. Overall though a 4-2-1 finish. Don't really feel like anything with the list really needs to change either. I did meet another dude running shortcake who was at least 4-0 or something I think. Not sure about the finish, though. Says he reads this thread but doesn't post so if that's you then certainly nice to meet you.

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I did meet another dude running shortcake who was at least 4-0 or something I think. Not sure about the finish, though. Says he reads this thread but doesn't post so if that's you then certainly nice to meet you.

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Well here I am :)

Unfortunately I didn't take any notes but tried to remember the important stuff.

Round 1 vs Punishing Jund 2-0
Round 2 vs Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 3 vs Miracles 2-0
Round 4 vs Veteran Jund Scapeshift Draw
Round 5 vs Team America 1-2
Round 6 vs Jund 1-2
Round 7 vs Death and Taxes 0-2

Started off well but the wheels fell off Round 4. I played my friend Sam who knew that I was on Painter. I birded a match of his earlier and saw a Veteran Explorer in play, so I kind of dreaded the match up. Sam fetched around Blood Moon G1 as much as he could and played an early Slaughter games on my Painter's Servant. I eventually beat him down take the game while he was stuck under a Blood Moon. Another early Slaughter Games on Grindstone and Sam eventually finding his basic forest to cast the two Huntmaster of the Fells that had been stranded in his hand meant he took the long G2. At this point we were the last match still playing and a large group had assembled around us, loudly commenting on our game and on the Pro Tour/being the worst people in the world ever. This is bad because now everyone watching knows I am on Painter. Bad manabases, poor fetching choices, and surprise factor are the primary reasons why Painter can crush in Swiss. Once the cat is out of the bag your free Blood Moon wins disappear.

We eventually draw and someone tells me that it was probably correct to fetch a Welder instead of whatever I had fetched with Imperial Recruiter. I sheepishly reply that I had sided all three Welders out, while simultaneously thinking “If this is Jack Kitchen I will never live this down”. Of course it was. So not only did I draw a match I should absolutely win I also punted and made terrible sideboarding decisions in front of the guy whose primer I've been pouring over :(

Round 5 I play against Team America and of course he fetches basics at every chance and steamrolls me with Goyfs G1. G2 we play a grindy game that I win with good Revoker calls and a clutch Firebolt. G3 is not close as the bridge I find is promptly abrupt decayed after my mull to 5. I ask him if he knew I was on painter and he shrugs. Yep.

Round 6 I play against Jund again. We both mulligan G1 and I joke that all my dredgers must be stuck together. He immediately goes off talking about how he hates dredge and has lost to it a million times, and mentions that he played it last round and luckily drew a punishing fire to nuke his own Deathrite to remove his opponents Bridge From Below. I laugh and debate telling him I am not on dredge but decide against it. I keep an all in on Blood Moon hand, correctly guessing that my opponent kept a “beat dredge” hand consisting of Wasteland and his best friend Wasteland number 2. After the game I apologize that I was making a joke about the dredgers and didn't purposely mislead him. He laughed it off but I still regret not correcting him because I probably would have won the game anyway.

He takes game 2 by beating me down with early Goyfs. My opponent's opening seven for G3 was basic swamp, basic forest, 2x Abrupt Decay, 2x Thoughtseize, and Goyf... a hand I don't beat literally ever on a mulligan.

Overall I thought I played fairly well considering I had been playing the deck for roughly a week. Highlights of the day included activating Koth's ultimate, asking my opponent why he would buy a $330 mountain after casting Blood Moon, and cracking a Ratchet Bomb with one counter to bait my opponent to flip his Top so I could REB it.

Haha don't feel bad man. I made mistakes in my miracle matches that cost me top 8. To be fair, the match I saw was against shardless bug round 5 when he had two basics out with something like 1 card in hand. I think you pitched an ssg to cast recruiter (which was perfectly fine) and got revoker. That's when I said welder would've been awesome because you had both painter and stone in yard so any artifact you draw would win you the game in two turns. It's cool though I always enjoy meeting other shortcake players.

I'm going to a fairly large tournament next week (over 1500$ in prizes) playing white splash for the first time. I know and have played against about half the people going, and decks that will be there are sneak and show, omnitell, ANT, d&t, miracles, jund, and a couple bw stoneblade.

Having never played white splash, what is my approach to the ANT matchup? How do I sideboard/mulligan?

Also, what do most of you board in against jund? I generally go about 50/50 in this matchup with the mono-red version, does the white splash change anything?

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Originally Posted by pinkfrosting

Having never played white splash, what is my approach to the ANT matchup? How do I sideboard/mulligan?

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Funny you should pose this question. I was testing this matchup extensively yesterday, and as a result, I decided to move the canonist to the main board. If you are playing the standard list, I would swap out one revoker. They literally can't win game with canonist in play, and it will be hard for you to win it without canonist. Otherwise I guess you just bring in all your combo hate. I play leylines as they they don't die to abrupt decay.
With that meta, would seriously consider canonist in main. It's good against elves, storm, food chain, sneak and show, and most other combo decks. It really over performed in my testing.
Also, anyone consider something like rule of law in the board? Obviously would be good against burn, goblins, RUG, etc. but in some matches if you could set your painter on red it could protect your guys from things like jitte, swords, etc. just a thought. As far as mass creature removal. Dwarf seems reasonable, Phoenix seems really slow but not awful. Obviously these are nice because they are tutor able. I've been using sudden demise and have liked them.


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Rule of law? Probably you mean absolute law when assuming a protection against jitte... but I like the idea especially against burn in general and UXr delver variants, where a moonlock still leaves them the lightning bolts! The combo of painter on red and absolute law seems nice as well, but then obviously you are not able anymore to declare blockers, but as an upside you would get rid of all equipments...
Has anyone experience with the card as a one off in the sb?

Oops, yeah, absolute law.
Edit: been trying it and, as long as you bring it in against the right matchups, it's sweet. It got me there against miracles last night. Opponent had jace out and snapcaster and couldn't do anything against me with painter on red. It's fun to frantically watch them search with jace and top and brainstorms and not find anything.


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You damn Painter players...:tongue:

EDIT: @SCG Somerset, Match V. Deathblade.
EDIT: Woah, just saw his list. No Recruiters...

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Originally Posted by Aesir

You damn Painter players...:tongue:

EDIT: @SCG Somerset, Match V. Deathblade.
EDIT: Woah, just saw his list. No Recruiters...

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You mean this？

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=67723

I did not watch the live, but I assume it is like something as Two-cards monte

That is the most strange list I have yet to lay eyes on. Served him well I am guessing.

I like the Buried Ruins, I like Welder more.

Really interesting list, it really ups the white count to bring in some all stars. Not sure about the MD trinisphere, karakas, koth and that emrakul on the sideboard, lot less mana too. I would like to see it played though. Really toolboxy which makes me worry about dead cards in the opening hand. 4th though...

Different colour painter but reminds me of this list in terms of singletons and trying to squeeze in answers.

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Originally Posted by Jungian Thing

Really interesting list, it really ups the white count to bring in some all stars. Not sure about the MD trinisphere, karakas, koth and that emrakul on the sideboard, lot less mana too. I would like to see it played though. Really toolboxy which makes me worry about dead cards in the opening hand. 4th though...

Different colour painter but reminds me of this list in terms of singletons and trying to squeeze in answers.

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I remember Mono-U Painter was called The Epic Painter or something in the past, maybe I was wrong for it was a really old version trying to abuse painter's combo. There were a variety of attempts to abuse this combo in various decks in the past, Mono-U, Imperial painter splashing blue or white for salvager combo, The mighty quinn utilizing painter combo as finisher, Next Level Painter with Countertop and even Dreadnought or UR painter...Apparently, Mono red or RW Imperial painter is still the best today.

I know there is a vintage deck called two card monte playing painter/grindstone combo and Helm/ Leyline combo in the same deck, I think this deck is similar to that in many aspects.

Hello! Let me explain my dilemma:
Yesterday I participated in a tournament of 60 people with the classic list R / W where the result was a 3-4 a lot disappointing; the problem is that during the tournament I suffered from screw or mulligan too often! talking to a guy who was playing the same deck and did 5-2, he confirmed these problems and it has solved the problem this way:

MD:
+4Th city of traitors
-1 Goblin welder

SD:
+1 Goblin welder
-1 Koth of the Hammer

What do you think? You also have this problem?

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Originally Posted by spector14

Hello! Let me explain my dilemma:
Yesterday I participated in a tournament of 60 people with the classic list R / W where the result was a 3-4 a lot disappointing; the problem is that during the tournament I suffered from screw or mulligan too often! talking to a guy who was playing the same deck and did 5-2, he confirmed these problems and it has solved the problem this way:

MD:
+4Th city of traitors
-1 Goblin welder

SD:
+1 Goblin welder
-1 Koth of the Hammer

What do you think? You also have this problem?

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I have never had real issues with the deck, I play the traditional list with a few sideboard options changed like the Pyrite Spellbomb, and two Koth. I have had to mulligan quite often some tournaments however I know what hands can get there and which ones cant. I also goldfish the deck quite often so I can learn different things with the deck. Practice really is the Key to this deck.

And for the Guy who took 4th at SCG Open, I can only link his success to the odd nature of his deck. His build was perhaps one of the most budget versions of the deck I have ever seen.

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Originally Posted by GoblinZ

You mean this？

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=67723

I did not watch the live, but I assume it is like something as Two-cards monte

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I saw some of it live, and it seemed like he was winning mostly off the back of Blood Moon.

That list strikes me as a hot mess, lots of negative synergies in the main and questionable card choices, but it seems to have served him well.

I think his results mostly just speaks to the power of Blood Moon.

Not that I'm a huge fan of the list I don't think we should be so quite to tear the list apart.

I was brewing some changes the other day with respect to rest in peace and how effective it is at solving a lot of issues for the deck. This list seems like he has take that idea and ran (quite a long way mind you) with it.

It has basically become a control deck with a 5 cards as the kill (grindstone and helm). This would comparable to entreat the angels albeit a bit faster.



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I think the deck in general focuses more on the late game, using more lock elements to guarantee a lock against any archetype and enough removal to clear the board and stall for a while. The three mainboard enlightened tutors and focus on white means you can grab and play whatever piece is necessary pretty early and then start sniping things until you have what you need to combo.

A different approach, but not a bad one. This deck is far from perfect, there is a lot of room to play around with the build.

Helm as an alt wincon that can't be decayed is really nice, decay is often a difficult card to deal with especially after they've stripped your hand.

looks like im trying a new deck for now i dont have recruiters :wink:

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/16843#237769

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Originally Posted by pinkfrosting

Helm as an alt wincon that can't be decayed is really nice, decay is often a difficult card to deal with especially after they've stripped your hand.

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First off, although it's true that helm can't be decayed, the combo can. Activate helm, response decay R.I.P. easy enough.

Personally, I think the success of most of the recent lists compared to traditional painter is the creature removal. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for toolbox strategies and run 3 tutors and a canonist main in my list and you could easily still keep a spot for graveyard hate, etc.
But what I don't currently have and need desperately is good main deck creature removal to either turn off their clock (kill delvers, goyfs, etc) and to kill pesky combo killers like opponents' revokers. I would recommend cutting some of the blasts from the main and adding creature removal instead. The other question then is which one. Firebolts do a lot of what we want but the sorcery speed is an issue. Lightning bolts are nice and can be pointed at planeswalkers but can't hit fatties like big goyfs, griselbrand, etc. and are always only 1-for-1. Maybe increasing white splash and using StP is the answer. For people running mono-red lists, you usually play burn right? If so, how important has it been and would it ever be important to take something out that bolts can't handle?
Or what about forked bolt? I could definitely see applications with that as well, especially against death and taxes and elves.


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Without diluting the maindeck too much you can run an engineered explosives like seth does. Tutorable, and gets to kill most creatures you're going to care about beyond griselbrand.

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Originally Posted by drude1

First off, although it's true that helm can't be decayed, the combo can. Activate helm, response decay R.I.P. easy enough.

Personally, I think the success of most of the recent lists compared to traditional painter is the creature removal. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for toolbox strategies and run 3 tutors and a canonist main in my list and you could easily still keep a spot for graveyard hate, etc.k

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It still holds an advantage over the painter-grindstone combo against decay. Generally, in jund/bug the line of play is grindstone > painter > decay stone in response to painter. The line of play with the helm combo though is helm > RIP with one mana open. After RIP resloves you're immediately in a game of chicken where you can keep one mana open and it forces him to need two removal spells that can target RIP, for fear of you activating helm in response for one.

In mono-red I ran 3 bolts main. It was generally most important when they open stoneforge turn two, and I bolt eot. This gives painter plenty of time to establish before they get jitte + another creature out to get it online. It's nice to have but in some games it's irrelevant. I did win once in a beaters game with a bolt to the face though :p

I've been off the grid for a month or so. What have I missed?

Sell your recruiters!

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Originally Posted by mcbain

Sell your recruiters!

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Woah.... What? I hope your are responding to jandax in jest!