Except post-board if they have Wilt-Leaf Liege in their deck, :eek::laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Happened to me at the Legacy Challenge actually, I think I lost that game but won the third.
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Except post-board if they have Wilt-Leaf Liege in their deck, :eek::laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Happened to me at the Legacy Challenge actually, I think I lost that game but won the third.
Yeah, but it shows how scary Hymn is to them!Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I usually board out my Lilianas vs DnT and leave in my Hymns just because it's still so powerful against them (even with the risk of Liege).
I usually leave my Lilianas in. I always start by boarding out Force and I usually board out a number of Daze. I guess that might be incorrect though. I feel like Liliana is still decent versus them, since in post-board games they will usually try not to extend out into a Charm. I feel like the value of Daze really drops off versus them after turn 2 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
It's been awhile since I've played the deck and the matchup, but I remembered ultimately not liking Liliana as much since they tend to have multiple crappy little creatures while at the same time you guarantee enable their WLL if they have it in their hand. On top of that, if they have Aether Vial active, I've found Liliana oftentimes still not very effective when you get them down to 0 cards in hand (they pop in their dude in response to your +1, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by H
I might keep some Lilianas in if they have a particularly heavy Mirran Crusader build.
I remember boarding out my Lilianas and a mix of FoW/Dazes (depending on if I'm on the play or draw) and just bring in all the removal + Cliques + Krosan Grips I have from the board.
My thoughts on this exactly. I tend to favor leaving in 1-2 Forces if I leave in countermagic at all, but I usually just turn into Jund with Delvers against D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Yup. Blue Jund is exactly how I like to play it too. Just try and get them to where they're in topdeck mode and let our more consistent deck (go go Brainstorm/Ponder) take it from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I took my above list to a local tournament. I went 1-1-1 against RUG, Miracles, and DTT control respectively so not a great showing. I felt like I may have been able to win the draw against miracles, but it went to time. Against DTT control I was unlucky with mulligans and made a huge derp that tilted away the rest of my game. I seem to have problems with control, though my newly acquired Clique seemed strong. It may be that I simply make mistakes in longer games, but I don't feel confident with sideboarding and general game plan either. How do you guys approach the match-up? How would you side? Got any good reference matches on video, or articles?
Maybe it's different because I was playing miracles, but whenever I played the DnT matchup, I would leave Force of Will in so I could counter mainly Aether Vial. because my deck couldn't really do much in the way of Vial and Cavern of Souls. Maybe it's different with Delver, but I hope that helps some.
Very different. Miracles has CounterTop, and so countering Vial is much more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
For us it's a completely different decision tree.
I'm not sure what DTT control is but versus Miracles game 1 can be very rough. If they start on Top you will probably lose that game. If you notice it slipping away, just scoop, you'll need the time to win game 2 and 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
In the post-board games, it really depends on what you have brought in. You must lock down Top. Without it, they are not a not-so-good control deck, since their options are much more limited. This is why I play Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Winter Orb. I also play every game as if Terminus is on the top of their library. In other words, I will limit myself to one creature at a time, never offering the 2-1. If you play Liliana and/or Library, these are priorities to land. They only play a couple answers to either and a sequence that lets you resolve a Delver, into Library, into Lili can be game winning, although it is still a grind. I try to save my counters for Entreat, because we can draw more threats after a Terminus, but a sizable Entreat is almost certainly game.
In the end, it's about being patient. If you try to rush to kill them, they almost certainly will get you. You have to expect at least one Terminus every game. It's also about diverse threats, which is why Library and Liliana are so important. It is easy for them to dig to an answer to a single type of threat (Creature, Enchantment, Planeswalker) but if they have to answer 2 or 3 of those types, they are nowhere near as efficient.
Without knowing you list it's hard to give more detailed advice. I am also, not exactly an expert, but the matchup should favor us post-board, but can be very swingy when cards like Blood Moon enter the equation.
DTT control, I guess would be the Golddigger deck?
Against D&T, if we remove almost all our countermagic, we don't care too much about Aether Vial since we're on the "kill-all-their-guys" plan.
Also, if you do care, we can always Abrupt Decay it instead of 2 for 1ing ourselves.
Ah DTT control might not be so established yet, it's the U/W list by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ore-Gifts.html. Also, thanks for the tips! I there were some essential differences to my play, I often try to rush to kill with catastrophic consequences. My list is on the previous page, though I'll go back to something closer to Jim Davis' list, cutting Liliana in the main for TNN (dropping the Bayou) and the Liliana in the board for Sylvan Library. Should help! I'll definitely also end my matches earlier when I feel like it's slipping because time is without exception an issue for me.
Hey guys I'd really like to get better with this deck, but there's not a lot of legacy physically near me. So I'd like to test on Cockatrice. If anyone wants to test please pm me!! I'm available after 6pm EST
also see http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ght=cockatrice
OK, I was thinking that might be what you were talking about, but I wasn't sure. I think the same principle applies though, generally.Quote:
Originally Posted by edahl
I liken it as, "play quick, but don't be in a hurry." If that makes any sense, :laugh:
You need to establish some kind of inevitability. By staggering your threats, you can apply consistent pressure, because if you give them time, they are going to end up locking you out with Jace or something. Cutting Liliana for a TNN will definitely hurt your matchup versus Miracles. Liliana is great, because they run so few answers to a Planeswalker and she given you inevitability with her ultimate. True-Name can dodge StP, but still gets swept up by Terminus. I can't even begin to explain how great Library is. When then Swords a Goyf and you just go and draw 2 cards to replace him, they are in a bad spot.
Creeping Tar Pit is also a card some people will play to help with the Miracles matchup. Just make sure you don't run it into Terminus or StP if you can help it.
For me, I actually like TNN quite a bit against them since it allows you to drop just 1 threat on the board and you just force them to either Terminus it away or die.
As others have mentioned, to me their biggest threat is Top. It negates all our hand disruption and sets up their Miracles. If you can stop the Top, you significantly cripple their main strategy and the consistency of their deck.
I'd go so far as to say that Miracles is the biggest reason to run TNN at all in the Hymn version. I actually like Tar Pit even if I'm running TNN because you're likely to end up in the midgame even when you win and want all of your expensive spells (TNN, Clique, Liliana) and really don't want to tap out in the face of Miracles' Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms or take down your own Pierces/Flusters because of how important Jace and Entreat are. As far as counters, I'm torn about whether I want an MD Pierce or Dimir Charm, and Miracles and Shardless are really the only arguments for the Charm. While we're talking about Miracles, I've said this before, but it bears repeating - Zur's Weirding (out of the board, obviously) is an absolute house against them, especially if you're running Hymn. It's also got utility in A+B combo matchups (slower ones like Sneak and Show or Omni, not so much against Reanimator) and against decks like MUD or 12Post. I wouldn't run Weirding unless my meta were 25%+ Miracles though, as it is pretty narrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Greetings,
I played in my LGS Legacy locals this week. I when 4-1 and ended 4th getting edged out of 3rd on tiebreakers. I played against Dan with 12 Post (2-0), Bobby with Sneak and Show (2-1), John with BUG Delver (0-2), Adam with Esper Stoneblade (2-1) and Guss with 12 Post (2-0). Overall the deck felt decent. Here is the list that I ran for reference:
Maindeck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
Overall the list felt fine. The mirror match that I lost was likely due to keeping greedy hands. I kept 1-landers with cantrips and was Wasted both games. I was able to play a bit more in game two but after getting my opponent into topdeck mode, he drew live while I drew lands. I think this type of configuration is powerful, but the more I test out changes to my disruption package, the more I feel that I want a configuration of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and possibly Thoughtseize. Hymn to Tourach just always feels lackluster to me. Prime example, the game that I lost in the Sneak and Show match, I resolve Hymn and hit a Show and Tell and a Sneak Attack. I die on the next turn to his remaining two cards and topdeck. On the topic of Tasigur, I cast him 4 times over the course of the evening and activated his ability once. I was given a Daze back and it was nearly dead... but it is fuel for either Brainstorm or Force of Will. I think I still need to do more testing but at the moment I am not sure if he is better or worse than Dark Confidant. I know that these two cards fill differing roles...
Card Advantage --- Middle Ground --- Aggressive
Dark Confidant --- Tasigur --- Goyf.
Tasigur hedges between the two options of Confidant and Goyf. I don't think that there is one single right answer, I think it comes down to how you build your deck and moreover I am not sure in my ideal configuration which option will prove to be better. What I am confident about is that I will need to keep playing Legacy to figure it out. Anyway, thanks for reading and I look forward to any comments!
Anyone playing Tombstalker these days (instead of Tasigur)? Seems good in the mirror against opposing Tasigur's, goyfs, and in general a real problem if left unchecked. He's got me out of many a games... thinking about bringing him off the bench :)
I've played Tombstalker on and off, here and there. I rarely have a problem, except the usual grave-hate, Jace, and StP. His flying is always relevant as there are no creatures that are really played that can outclass him in the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
Went 7-2 in Baltimore, losing to Bant (bad luck imho, I beat it online) and Elves (bad match-up, didn't have enough SB cards).
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=80729
I also 4-0'd two Dailies with the same 75. Should see one of the video series on CFB soon. Confidant is better than Tombstalker right now, but I sided it out a lot too. I'm still utterly convinced that Hymn >>> Stifle. People also kept playing around Stifle against me, which is all the more reason not to play it. :cool:
Congrats! Curious, what's your reasoning for Bob being better than Stalker now? Would you say he's better positioned than Tasigur, too?Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Bob is better vs white fair decks and Combo (Miracles, StoneBlade), Tombstalker is better vs. non-white fair decks (RUG, Jund, Elves and Shardless). I would rather beat the former than the latter.
Btw, how do people generally SB vs. Elves? I have been cutting Hymns, but I'm not sure that is correct. I think it's a tough match-up, and Hymn is a do-nothing or win-the-game type of card, so maybe I should be playing it?
Are you sure you're not playing Bob over Tombstalker because it's your name?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Depending on how badly you want to beat Elves, Engineered Plague is incredibly good. I've been running two of them because Plague is reasonable against Death and Taxes (Human for Mother of Runes, Thalia, and to bring Crusader down to a more managable size).Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
I think the list you play is the same as or very simliar to the winning list played at GP Paris last year?
How often was Jace boarded in, and/or relevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Did your combo MU's perform OK w/o in the inclusion of Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm? Just wondering if the Thoughtseize's plus Fow's got you there.
-2-3 Daze, -2 Hymn, +2-3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm depending on how many Disfigures I decided to run. I don't like Daze much in the matchup, but keeping a decent blue count for Force is important. I agree that Hymn tends to feel quite polarized.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Yeah I basically talked to Javier and tweaked his list. I personally don't like Jace, so he's getting cut for Golgari Charm. I missed having Stalker for decks like RUG and Elves, so I might try him in the SB. Not sure though, because he is worse post SB due to Submerge.
The combo match-ups are fine, I'm not sure you need Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize. Both cards are pretty meh. I also think the StoneBlade match-ups are good, so that's another reason to cut them.
So running 3 Golgari Charms SB? That's something I've been wanting to test to improve MU's against Elves and DnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Aside from the previous comments about Elves-hate, I'll mull down to find a Golgari Charm if needed :) I've seen them overextend themselves into a charm to get blown out. Helps if we have a flipped Delver of course!
I think I'd rather have the 3rd Disfigure or Maelstrom Pulse than the 3rd Charm. I also board in Disfigure in Delver mirrors because it kills DRS, SFM, Swiftspears, and (flipped) Delvers, and Charm isn't an answer to any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
Congratulations on the strong finish, I like the list. I really like that Confidant gives good reason to have Library in the side. Two Lilianas main is also good I have found. I want to ask how you felt about 20 lands though? Did that feel like a good number? I felt squeezed with only 19, but flooded with 20, but it could most certainly just have been variance.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
A miser Spell Pierce is always neat to make them play around, since they often won't be sure if you are playing Stifle-Pierce or Hymn with miser Pierce. Often, if they hold a spell back you can take that time to hit them with a Hymn and rip the good stuff. That is one reason why I just went to 4 Hymn. Turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Hymn makes me happy happy. The fact that you had Confidants no doubt confused people even further, since they probably were expeccting Stifles (a la Jim Davis' build).
On Elves, I almost feel like their good, or great, draws are so bad for us that I'd almost rather just concede the matchup as unfavorable and keep precious board space open for matchups I can move to real positive. The number of times where I Charm out 3-4 Elves or more only to have them cast a Natural Order with the Deathrites it didn't kill or a Nettle Sentinal, or kill a bunch of Elves to only have them cast Glimpse and still draw a quarter of their deck anyway. Of course it depends on how often you see Elves, but since I usually only see them once per tournament, I feel like I'll take my chances with 2 Disfigures and 2 Charms or so.
Looking for some SB advice on Surgical Extraction. I have always played 2 GD Cage for gyard hate, and see some people are running 1 Cage and 1 Extraction. What's your experience on playing it, good or bad, and when to bring in? Is a split best or to run 1 of each, etc.?
kills loam nasty lands bridge. And againat combo i get a peak of their hand after a hymn. Tgough i dont use surgical againat combo that muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
Hits Loam and Punishing Fire. I never bring it in versus combo though. I would never go below 1, my list right now has 2 though, because Lands has been popular around here. I only play 1 Cage though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallacy
I always brought it in vs combo since with our hand disruption, we stand a good chance of hitting a key piece and then stripping it out of their deck (say you strip all the SnT / Sneak Attack / Griselbrand / Emrakul out of a Sneaky Show deck, even removing one of those 4 pieces makes it much harder for them to combo off).
I tested Bob's list last night and it seems pretty sweet except for the Thoughtseizes, which really felt way too low impact against everything except Stoneforge Mystic decks. Has anyone tried running Pierce in the Hymn builds? I'm not sure if it's too crappy without the extra mana denial that Stifle provides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iostream
I think that pierce is ok, but i would probably recommend switching the seizes and the disfigures in the board.
Pierce is alright, but I wouldn't run more than 1-2. Indeed, without Stifle's mana denial, Pierce is not amazing, however, when people know you have Hymn, keeping cards back to wait for more mana often means having those cards just discarded. In those cases, they will often accelerate their plays, so Pierce can still have value.Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsLeif
It also opens the line of Turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Hymn + Pierce, which is great if you were on the play and they try to Brainstorm. I will Pierce that Brainstorm all day. If you have Daze there too it can be even more of a blowout and you might even catch a Daze with your own.
What MU's do you side Confidant out? Referring to Bob's list, as well as the GP Paris list from last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki