Awesome, you know what you're going to play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Edit: basicly it should be able to beat Miracles, BUG Delver and OmniTell
Edit2: currently attending GP Utrecht. 45min till first legacy side event.
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Awesome, you know what you're going to play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Edit: basicly it should be able to beat Miracles, BUG Delver and OmniTell
Edit2: currently attending GP Utrecht. 45min till first legacy side event.
Lucky you. What will you be playing at this side event ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Punishing Fire NicFit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Currently packing 2 Stormbreath setup. No Kolaghans Command, mail didnt arive in time. Dropped Garruk and Edict for 2 Slaughter Games back to sideboard and now have 4 PFire main with 3 Liliana. Also running 2/2/2 split with basics.
Edit: finished with a dissappointing 2-3 swiss no top8. The opponents where real nice and all of them foreigners (me being Dutch). Facing 3 Americans, a Swedish and a Belgian.
R1 UW Landstill. 1-0-1 Super grindy G1. Casted thru Landstill a couple of times. G1 won on the back of Stormbreath and monstrous ability, setting up a Cabal Therapy naming Stifle. G2 he had 3 factories, but having 4 PFire helped here. Eventually i played Thrun and wad able to stall with him till draw.
R2 Rug Delver. G1 i was double stifled on my fetch and stuck with Mountain. G2 i was able to outgrind him and win with Stormbreath. Both Thragtusk and Humaster helped me stabilize and Extirpate on Bolt saved my ass. G3 i kept a 1 fetch hand hoping i didnt see Stifle, also i was out of focus cus i really needed to go take a piss.... he got the stifle and that was it.
R3 MUD. G1 and 2 i was able to setup a some blockers and land Liliana backed with deed, but that matchup is basicly a nightmare... figures....
R4 High Tide. Naming T1 on the play Brainstorm hit, i knew he wad on blue but not what. Seeing High Tide and Reset. Went for GSZ into DRS and Eternal Witness the Therapy. Drew another Therapy and landed Liliana. G2 i Thoughtseize, he counters and i land a Veteran outcof GSZ. I was holding 2 Slaughter Games and Liliana. Liliana landed and followed with Slaughter Games. He tried to combo on response but bricked. Me naming High Tide was enough.
R5 Burn. G1 I had a hand with no way to GSZ into lifegain in time. G2 was basicly the same. I was able to land Hunmaster and got rid of Eidolon. Also a second, but then he double Fireblast and landed 2 more Eidolon. Burn can be more easy, especially when i was playing 4 DRS main.
Overall i felt like i had better chances, but should have mulled against Burn and didnt have to punt RUG. MUD is bad anyway.
The 4 PFires main where awesome.
Again Stormbreath performed top notch.
The 2/2/2 basic land split was helping to Veteran Explorer into Stormbreath, but i feel it is tricky color screwing myself. I had games where Liliana was stuck at my hand.
If i have Kologhan's Command i will replace it with a PFire. It basicly it does the same and i didnt even need to do Groves + PFire a lot.
No further changes and will go again tomorow.
You can find a recent list here....Quote:
Originally Posted by MBSegal
@MBSegal: This deck has enough mana to drop Deeds quickly and Deed is a wonderful, versatile catch-all answer.
It also allows you to play the Deed-game, where your opponent keeps a minimal amount of pressure on the board and you handle their threats with your spot removal (or you just soak up some damage) without blowing up Deed. That gives you plenty of time to ramp into the fatties your opponent won't be able to handle. The other scenario is where your opponent overcommits on the board and you just blow it to all to hell at their declare attackers/EoT step.
Watching opponents squirm under a Deed is so delightful!
@MBSegal: Speaking from lots of experience, the deck NEEDS Deeds. The amount of games I have won on the back of Deeds alone is too many to count. Deeds in Scapewish is essentially a reset button of any pressure.
This is my current decklist that I have lots of success with:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
1 Scapeshift
1 Diabloic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Senseis Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deeds
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
1 Reanimate
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Ruination (I have lots of 12post in my meta)
3 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
The only cut I am thinking about is a -1 Sensei's Divining Top and +1 Slaughter Games (as long as OmniTell is rampant) in the main. 4 SDT I have been finding is too much. You WANT to draw one, but drawing multiples gets stupid (as it always is). 3 I feel is the perfect number. If I don't add the Slaughter Games, I would probably add another 3-5 drop creature with a good CiP trigger (Obstinate Baloth is what I am looking at).
Considering your experience with Scape, here are a few questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
- How do you feel about having only 9 (+phyrexian) black sources ? How much games did it screw you hard ?
- Have you ever been very light in red sources when scapeshifting, so that you think it is mandatory to play 11 mountains ?
- What wincon do you like the most in Scape ?
- Would you likely try something new (a different list than the one you are currently playing) ?
Thanks a lot !
I am going on a small casual legacy tournament and I'm was thinking on a different approach with my Abzan Two Towers sideboard. Since maindeck is really good against decks like DnT, Merfolks, and other tempo/aggro decks, main problem is combo.
With many games lost because of Dredge & Reanimator, and getting into Top4, I was thinking to give up on gravehate based on artifacts and enchantments, like RoP, RiP, Leyline and so on. Since now I can afford to have Containment Priests, I was thinking about getting three of those into sideboard. And two Dryad Militants against Dredge because the can't remove them at all after sieboarding.
Last deck that caused me problems was Infect, but after sideing in 2-3 Melira's, it was always 2:1 for me.
So, sideboard should look like this:
3x Melira (Infect)
3x Containment Priest (Dredge. Reanimator)
2x Dryad Militant (Dredge)
2x Engineered Plague (for punishing aggro)
1x Toxic Deluge (same)
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal (same)
2x Dread of Night (punishing DnT)
1x ???
Which left me with only one slot to fill in. Anyone fot any idea?
Could you also please post your MD, it will help to give better side options ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid__Android
Don't you ever face any Omnitell ?
I could see playing an extraction effect:
- Stain the Mind
- Cranial Extraction
- Surgical Extraction / Extirpate
I would also hedge a bit with a golgari charm in the side instead of an engineered plague for more utility against other MUs.
3 Melira ? She is legendary. And she won't save you from a "submerge".
Why not trying something like:
- 1 krosan grip
- 1 Melira
- 1 Maze of Ith (and play a crop rotation somewhere in your 75)
The three of them are useful against Poison but not only.
Dread of Night is a really poor choice. You should already wreck D&T.
This could free up to 2 slots for more utility:
- a couple of discard
- a gaddock & a canonist
- a pair of "choke" against blue deck
- a pair of "carpet of flowers"
etc...
I totally forgot about Extirpate effects, damn! Well one must go in side then. :D
I was having two Meliras in side, because I was pissed when he Berserked my Melira and almost killed me, but then I drew nother one and then he conceded.
Dread of Night is for raping DnT only. But, maybe isn't necessary at all. We'll se. :D
Maindeck will be posted later, 'cause I'm in a big hurry going to work!
Hey Ralf, here are some answers to your questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
1) I honestly can't remember a time I got color screwed in either of my 3 colors. The only thing that really pops into my mind is just drawing poorly that would require a hand to be mulliganed.
2) Keeping track of your red sources is a very important thing, especially when you continuously draw into them. When that happens it is all a part of the game and therefore requires you to take a different line of play. For instance, if I have already drawed / played 4-5 red sources, I would try to jam a primeval titan rather than scapeshift because you can get more value from the primetime triggers over trying to force a scapwshift.
3) I barely win by Scapeshifting. The reason I love this deck so much is because it is control, mid-range, and has the ability to combo. For instance, 2 weeks ago I was playing against UWR delver and was able to wipe the board several times with Deeds / pyroclasm. In game 3 we go to time, and I'm at turn 4, and I was able to scapeshift kill him by drawing into a burning wish and dealt 36 damage....loved it! I took game 1 however just by jamming threats that clearly overrun UWR Delver (huntmaster, thragtusk, thrun, primeval titan)......with all that said, my favorite way of winning is by creatures. Winning by creatures mean the deck did what I needed it to do and I piloted it correctly. Getting lucky and winning in turn 4 of time is nice, but too much luck for my taste.
4) I have punishing Jund on MTGO as well, however I just don't feel it's as strong as scapewish. The thing I love most about it is the utility of the sideboard and to me, that suits my playstyle the best. I tried Junk, but felt like it didn't suit my playstyle.
Lucky you.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I feel like I am often color screwed (mostly with black) post board when you need to fire off some discard spells.
11 mountains is a very stable number but I guess we might get the job done with only 10 while being careful on how we play our lands.
Your land count (23) is interesting. But only 2 "fetchs".
You and I are on the same boat as I ended up cutting 1 scape from MD a few months ago and playing only 2 between main & side.
When I was speaking of other Nic Fit lists, I meant other Scape ones.
Feel free to assess mine.
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Eternal Witness
1 Broodmate dragon
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
Gotcha! Sorry, thought you meant other NicFit variants. I haven't really changed around the configuration of my deck that much. I generally stay with the 6 removal spells, 13-15 creatures (I think I'm at 14 right now)...between 4-6 discard spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Getting screwed with colored sources in this should only happen by really bad draws or not sequencing your land drops / plays correctly...for reference, I would snap keep any hand that had forest, mountain/swamp and sakura tribe elder. Not only does this accelerate our mana, it also makes sure we hit the right land drops. Making sure I can cast all my spells is something I look for in my opening hand and make sure I sequence everything properly.
I agree about multiple Scapeshifts in the MD, having more than 1 is just unnecessary. Diabolic Intent serves as one, as does the 4 burning wishes...so essentially we are playing 6 copies in the MD which is more than enough to get there if needed.
I am currently trying to find a way for another fetchland to be in my configuration for the synergy with Top, however if you sequence your plays right you should have enough shuffle effects between explorers, sakura tribe elders, wood elves, etc.
I'm not sure if I would drop below 11 mountain sources. I am usually scapeshifting for 7 mountain 1 valakut if my opponent is above 18 life. Since I am in a waste heavy meta you never want to get screwed by searching up only 6 mountains and having them waste one with the triggers on the stack. You need a decent buffer for drawing into mountains.
As far as your list goes, the thing that stands out most is Karakas. If you aren't running Primeval Titan (2nd thing I see an issue with) then you have no way of fetching the Karakas.
I would also switch out the SB thoughtseizes for duresses. Another match-up that is really bad for us is burn, and my duresses come in against them. Any matchup where we would rather take a creature over duress is non-existent as we have other answers to those (deeds, decay, massacre, pyroclasm).
I really liked Dryad Militant when Treasure Cruise was abundant, but now that that phase of magic is over, I don't think she is as relevant and would be a meta call (similar to me having Ruination in my meta...which just picked up a very serious MUDPost player...)
Thanks for your reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
You wrote diabolic edict in your list (not diabolic intent). I didn't understand at the first glance.
Well, Titania + Prime+ Karakas was a hedge against Emmy.decks.
Prime is gone as the meta is more centered around Omnitell.
Nevertheless, I really like the synergy with Titania. But you are right. I'll cut the karakas.
Titania is a house. I've been killing half of my time with Titania + Scape rather than Scape + Valakut.
Dryad is still in SB to fight the DTT area...coming right after the TC area.
I won't leave home without it. Not to mention, that we have some Storm and Dredge players around here...
Burn was not a concern, if I remember the last game I had against it, but it was when we were still playing 2 Thragtusk.
[QUOTE=Bobmans;884524]Cool, which one? The PFire list or the 4c Rector Strix list that was dicussed last posts (a little)?
Tasigur, i haven't played the card yet.
The PFJund list. I have play some myself but with 2 huntermasters. I really like the cretures in the deck and Vraska is a good card in this deck made me buy one.
I haven't get "online" with Tasigur in PFJund. I have only played one match(UWR controll) and he countered or kill it everytime. Maybe is a good thing, they must kill it or die.
Bobman: Remove Tower? Sometimes Is really good at the start of the game and some times not.
Currently i have been running 2x Stormbreath Dragon and up untill now they are performing outstanding. I only lost once against an Emrakul after it was resolved, but other then that it has raced DnT, UW Landstill, Reanimator, RUG Delver and SneakShow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
So for now i will keep this configuration. Tasigur is on the list of things to play. Currently i am selling of my Miracles portion of my collection along with all the UWR attched cards and i am nearly back on Ugb cards only missing Trops. When i am back at it i am going to build a BUG list and try it in there. Not sure if it will be NicFit, UGB Landstill, Control or Delver.
2 Huntmasters are really good. I played 2 when Treasure Cruise was hot. Then there where lot of decks that suffered from Huntmaster and when it started flipping it was game. Mostly they got rid of nr1 fast but nr2 sticked. Now i feel Thrun is in a better meta and i needed room for Strombreath to experiment.
I am testing this list seems ok :
There are a lot of synergie dust bowl+veteran explorer+titania.
Pyro/reb/bolt+witness/den protector what makes the deck good.
It seems to lack some answers to TNN though.
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Eternal Witness
3 Den Protector
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Dust Bowl
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
5 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 4 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
Not playing lumberjack is so wrong it is so much better with titania and better vs random
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Eternal Witness
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Den Protector
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Orcish Lumberjack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Sudden Shock
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
4 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
3 Dust Bowl
2 Bloodstained Mire
SB: 3 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
Stormbreath Drgon is awesome. I have talked with my other legacy friends and they say nothing stops the dragonQuote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I was anti-courser of kruphix first but when I saw our decklist, why not? Witness is not good now after deathrite came and there's no good three drop for nic-fit then courser. It's works well with top as well.
Have been working on Japanese JUNK list. Progress near completion. I just need to settle on some solid sideboard cards. Tomorow i am gonna play JUNK on the GP Utrecht. Have been playing PFire today and last thursday. Friday i toke MUD for a spin, but regretted it. Now i have JUNK complete (again) i just want to feel how it will be in comparison to JUND NicFit.
List so far:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil: Considering 1x Dragonlord Dromoka and 1x Council's Judgment instead.
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
// board
2 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate: Considering 1x Dryad Militant instead.
1 Memoricide
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
3 Carpet of Flowers
Containment Priest. There has been A LOT Elves, Reanimate, MUD, DnT and SneakShow in Utrecht so far.
Intent + Recurring Nightmare. I wanted room for more pressure and utility creatures searchable with GSZ. Teeg mainboard improves ANT and is solid vs Miracles. Also 2 DRS and 1 Scooze because of Reanimator and a little but still fanatics playing Dredge and TinFins. Also DRS (basicly i want 4 in there) help me outgrind Burn.
Liliana of the Veil. The last couple of days i have resolved her and win several games with her help. I noticed that, while PFire interactions makes us play her, i never actually did more then 1 Grove + Pfire while upping her. It was not needed so i might just try her in JUNK.
Council's Judgement. I actually want to put a singleton of that card in my 76 somewhere but can't figur in what spot. Obviously if it replaces a Liliana then i would want to replace the 2nd Liliana with Vraska.
Thoughts anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
Today i have resolved the Dragon several times including BantStoneblade, DnT and BUG Delver. It immediatly made impact to the board and most of the times i was able to Monstrous it 2 turns later. It is sooooo awesome.
I had a love/hate relation with Witness, but finally we are getting on the right track together. I have been doing more "little" tricks with her like casting it just to make an extra Therapy cast or just to get a Abrupt Decay back on hand for something that wasn't even there yet and it was very good. Also resolving Witness against combo to retrive a Extirpate or Slaughter Games is awesome. DRS bothers, but mostly PFire has to solve it asap. DRS is not to big of a thing here. Many different decks are played here.
Play the militant bobmans its worth the slot and good in matches you wouldnt bring extripate effects in.
Militant is a solid choice instead of 3rd Extirpate.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Still in doubt between 2x Liliana of thr Veil OR 1x Dragonlord Dromoka and 1x Council's Judgement... Also bothered i couldn't fit Vraska, but thats probably pushing it. I feel that running Liliana makes the list more capable of fighting combo and with Council/Dromoka it has a better aggro/control MU. Council also can get rid of big artifacts run in MUD. And with a second beefy flyer one is always safe. Running Vraska instead of Council's Judgement might be awesome aswell. BUT given that the field might be filled with a lot of combo and the combination with Path to Exile might make 2x Liliana the best choice.
Hands down purely a meta call if its a local and everyone is on miracles and sultai then the dromoka judgement split is fine. In a large 6-7 rnd tournament take the lilis. The question you need to ask is whether elspeth is better then nightmare. Elspeth is better in a vacuum nightmare wins games you could otherwise be locked out of the combat phase.
Went for the Liliana's. Nightmare vs Elspeth. Since i am running the two towers i will stick to Elspeth. Lets find out what she will bring us today.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Even if i'd wanted to change to Recurry, i couldnt. Already in the train on my way to the GP.
I can always emergency Fedex you a Korean Recurring Nightmare. LMK. Bros don't let bros play without Korean Recurring Nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
-Matt
Well maybe you could Fedex yourself over here and kick my ass. Just played the most horrible games against Esper Blade in round 1. G1 had to mull and kept plains, swamp, stronghold, rhino, deed, therapy. Never drew another land. Should i have mulled to 5?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
G2 i kept bayou, explorer, top, therapy, 2 gsz, rhino. Then i played bayou into veteran explorer and realized my error... on his turn the obvious happened. And basicly he was able to outgrind my sorry ass with eas.
Although losing to this guy i had a good laugh with him and flavour points to the deck...
Edit: currently 1-3 in rounds.
R2 Deathblade against a good players. Lost 0-2. Matchups where real grindy. Both games where basicly won by DTT.
R3 Infect, 2-1. Grindy games 1 and 2. G2 Pithing Needle on Nexus then draw go into top and full control. G3 i had triple Therapy into goodstuff while he kept a 1 land after mulligan.
R4 Dredge. G1 on the draw. my turn i land Bayou into DRS. T2 i land PDeeds for his 9 zombies, but 13/13 troll plus 2 Ichorids killed me.
G2 i had double Therapy and Extirpate on his troll. Also landed a Containment Priest. I drew only lands and he had a firestorm pretty quick.
That all there was to it... bummer i am kinda agitated that for the last 4 days things have gone sideways real bad. Not sure how i want to continue and what to prepare for Lille.
Last edit: came to late for R5 and got a gameloss, conceded and dropped.
As far as Junk concerned, it is fun but i prefer playing Jund colors instead. While preparing for Lille, Jund NicFit is the deck to focus on for me. But something is telling me to play some kind of BUG list that exploits Pernicous Deed and some card advantage engine outside of Brainstorm.
If you can't beat em, join em. But at least do it in style. While piloting this deck, in what meta is this basicly a bad idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Gonna use this list as a baseline and tweak it.
What about Titan-post matchup? I've lost in Top4 today because I didn't expected this deck at all. I couldn't do anything at all, but I've managed to win one game, so for the first time, it isn't bad at all. Main problems, for me, were Crop Rotation, Eye of Ugin, and hardcasted Eldrazi monsters.
Andriod what is your color scheme jund has acess to blood moon to fight the 12 post matchup. Any other colors just pray you dont get paired its not worth the slots to fix the lopsided 70-30 matchup. You have a better chance against tes then the turbo eldrazi.
My friend who got me into legacy just recently plays 12 post, so I have more experience against it than any other deck at the moment. I'm on the junk list and I've only won 1 game against him (not match, game) and it was only because I Ghost Quartered (Wasteland for you non-budget conscience players) a Cloud Post on turn 1 and then paid 2 life to Surgically extract them all from his deck. He says decks with multiple Wastelands are his biggest threats. So yeah, you have to screw up their mana quick to have a chance. I'm probably going to proxy some Containment Priests to test against him, but he also tends to find Karakas and have it available before he casts Emrakul, so he just bounces it to his hand if I try a Diabolic Edict or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid__Android
If you're on red, Sowing Salt might be worth looking into.
Since multiple Wastelands can't be really an option, I've thought about some hate against it. Ensnaring Bridge, ARMAGEDDON (I know, I know, haha!) and hardcore discard on first three turns (Hymns and LilianaotV).Quote:
Originally Posted by tilzinger
I've sided in CPriests for Marit Lage and Titans who were always GSZed, but they weren't any good. It was a weird build for sure.
@Bobmans - Lands and 12-post are miserable for this deck so if you see that a ton you will either need some SB tech or change the game plan. Miracles can be an issue, game 1 especially. Game 2/3 I board out vets and some number of therapies and bring in the counters, notion thief, etc.
I actually am thinking to run a top or 2 in the board to bring in against combo and control games. I am also not sure about thragtusk right now. I think I do want 1 somewhere in the main because its lifegain and with jace can put the game out of reach. I am also considering moving the tasigurs to the board and moving more into a dig plan. That care is just absurd and feel like not playing it is like not playing treasure cruise (hard to justify from a power perspective).
I moved a pulse to the main. With so many miracles decks running around as well Omni (they can bring in both dgrid and/or levline which is important to get off the table) I wanted another answer to jace.
I think if your used to either Pfire or Junk then a version similar to what I had is going to feel underpowered, we dont get to jam 3 rhinos in a row or set up punishing fire but the deck is very consistent and early jaces and lilys are usually enough. Do you think a build with more 5/6 drops would end up better? I do sometimes feel like having a grave titan or something like that would be helpful.
CPriest doesn't stop Marit Lage, unfortunately. It's a token.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid__Android
If you're playing red then Ruination is a great card to fight 12-post, as well as the obvious things like lands...and it can straight up punish greedy 3-4 colour decks too.
I'm wondering whether blood moon effect is better or weaker than a strict armag' effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
These kind of decks won't likely anticipate such cards coming from the board.
To be honest, I would only consider Ruination in a Burning wish shell.
Otherwise, I'll stick with a more standard approach -> Blood moon.
That's very good answer but I'm playing an Abzan Nic Fit shell, so, no red for now. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid__Android
I play Junk, and I've enjoyed Null Rods (having to shrug at my two Tops) out of the board for the difficult MUD, Storm, and Miracles match-ups in moderate testing. I haven't gotten a chance to play it against 12-Post yet, but that match-up is part of the reason I put it in, and I imagine it helps against their Expedition Map, Sensei's Divining Top, and Candelabra of Tawnos. I mostly expect to get steamrolled by Crop Rotation, Primeval Titan, Show and Tell, and company anyway, but someone might want to test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I've found that Deeds is a good answer to those cards. I've taken out a Candelabra, Exploration, Top, and 2 Maps in one go. Those cards are the only reason I don't side out the Deeds in that matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
The other sucky thing about that matchup is it runs a lot of basics too, upwards of 8-10 I think. So Veteran is helping them just as much, if not more, than its helping you. The deck has a ton of redundancy. A Therapy on turn 1 could hit Map, Exploration, Ancient Stirrings or Crop Rotation. I usually name Crop Rotation if I'm blind b/c its the one that lets them accelerate the most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
One would offcourse have to accept to be weaker to some decks then others. Even this is true for every current DtB, but still those are DtB. I suppose we can run hate against the weaker match-ups, but first fill the room we have to improve the meta.
Attacking 12post and MUD often means to be attacking their manabase before they can deploy. Decks like Jund or BUG Delver are particularly good at doing that, but our main problem is we are not running Wasteland, just like Paranoid_Andriod said. Ruination would be a solid choice for Scape, since Blood Moon disables Valakut. Even then i think a LftL wouldn't be out of place to run either main/board. As for Jund NicFit. I think Blood Moon could work, but it face the danger of 1. being countered or destroyed very easy, 2. Blood Moon still provides them with mana. MUD can just continue deploying Metalworker and/or Monolith. The question then becomes, who draws better. And 3. Blood Moon also disables your own utility lands. I must admit that against the matchups it is brought in the utlity lands don't do relevant stuff anyway (except PFire vs Metalworker). Deploying Moon T2/3 is a must, but can seriously harm our own deployment. It might just be a necessary evil for Jund lists.
Sowing Salt is an interesting idea, except it is probably too slow vs Depths. Opponent can respond and cast Crop Rotation to create Marit Lage or just counter it. JunK still has the best utility to fight Depths, Karakas and Path to Exile are excelent cards. JunD just doesn't have it.
Null Rod also looks intersting, but running that card effective means running at least to or more and i do not like to see sideboard space been sucked up by that card. Just like mentioned it doesn't combine with our own SDT. SDT is the card that i often find to be involved in winning games.
As for the BUG list. Running creatures in different ranges is probably a good idea, bearing that they bring synergy to the list. Since the BUG list does not run GSZ it does not have to be green and obvious choices would be Snapcaster Mage, Baleful Strix, Vendilion Clique and probably something out of the box at a higher CMC (Aetherling?. Will be looking into it. I do, however, think that running a number around 12-16 creatures would be nice to reach just the amount of pressure to close out games in not to many time. Thragtusk and Jace combine real nice with it's ETB, LTB triggers.
Also i have been thinking about Tasigur and i also want to add 2 copies of DTT to the list. Personally i do not see reason to NOT run them along. In fact i think they can work really well together. Tasigur delve and DTT delve cleanup the yard, while Tasigur (and doing regular business) fills it up again. Also with all the land deployment this deck has it would be really easy to control the amount of cards to delve for DTT. The question is, does it tempo enough to continually balance each other out. Also i think that 1 or 2 Sensei's Divining Tops work really well here. Being able to Select what cards go to the yard with Tasigur's ability can be pretty powerful. Even better if DTT just emptied it and you'd want a PDeeds. Happen to put a Deed and a Land on top with SDT and activate Tasigur seems really nice.
Maelstrom Pulse is an auto include. It reaches what Abrupt Decay can't reach AND Pernicious Deed cannot destroy Walkers or you just don't have the mana to destroy something you'd want with Deeds.
Brainstorm session so far.
vandalblast might be an option against MUD aswell. Also Vraska the Unseen and Maelstrom Pulse can destroy take out Ugin.
12post, MUD, and Nic Fit are all members of the same family.
The issue is that they go bigger than we do, quicker. 12post goes the biggest, by far; MUD goes the quickest, by far. Nic Fit is, imo, the most stable & flexible of the three, as it exists in the middle of the other two on the scale, but it's definitely very weak to its siblings.
If you're confronted with 12post on a regular basis, don't be afraid to look for unusual answers. There's a lot of fringe playable / EDH playable options that Nic Fit has access to that many decks don't. For example, you might consider green Kamahl to make your opponent's lands into dudes and then Deed them away. Something that attacks the Eldrazi Bribery-style might also be an option to look into -- Praetor's Grasp does this, but only hits one of the 3 and doesn't put it into play like Bribery does. I'm not sure off the top of my head if there's a better black option than PG.
I believe there is also a questionably playable black Blood Moon. Contamination, maybe? I don't remember. Rain of Filth is an option, as well.
There's a lot of possibilities, you just have to go looking for them. We're MUCH more flexible than 12post is -- you can tune your list to beat basically anything. Just realize that if you tune to beat 12post, you might give ground elsewhere in your local meta.
Or just play night of souls' betrayal with kamahl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
By the time you ramp into that you're dead. Whatever moves you make to take care of their mana needs to be done before turn 3 or 4. By then its too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016