[Primer] R/G Lands

I am back from the legacy tournament with some semblance of good news. I played the exact list I posted the other day, but I swapped the Worm Harvest for a Primeval Titan in case I ran into any show and tell (I didn't). Ended up 3-1-1 before top 8 with my only loss being to a BUG midrange deck and then drawing into top 8. I went:
2-0 against Stasis: easily got there game one, he never saw a relevant card, game two I forgot that Back to Basics was a card but luckily I sided into two Krosan Grip in case I ran into something unexpected. He ended up with a Stasis and a Back to Basics in play, eot I had 4 mana up, I cycled and managed to draw a grip, then went to my turn, drew something irrelevant and passed. On his turn he forgot to pay for his own stasis which allowed me to grip the BtB and steal the game.
0-2 against BUG midrange: lands a t2 Tarmogoyf on the play with just a land in the GY, I look at the punishing fire in my hand and cry a little. I never managed to come back from it. Don't remember exactly what happened game 2, but his Life from the Loam did way more work than mine, which never showed up.
2-0 against Shardless BUG: I've got the nuts game one on the play, he doesn't have a Force and i Manabond out the combo + mana to activate. I forget to play around Wasteland and guess what he plays for turn? (It's wasteland) but I can combo in response and I end up untapping and playing one of my own to force my combo through(#get rewarded for bad plays). Game 2 we play a little more Magic but eventually im able to Gamble for the other half of the combo and win.
then I drew against UB Tezzeret but we play for fun and i end up going 2-1, losing to a 5/5 chalice for 1 in game one.

Then I get into top 8 and lose 1-2 against Burn. Game one I'm able to quickly combo, game two i just get shat on, game three involved me MAJORLY misplaying with Glacial Chasm and totally screwing myself over. I realized my only defense against Burn is Glacial Chasm and I'm thinking of throwing a Zuran Orb into the sideboard to help out. How do you guys deal with this matchup?

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Originally Posted by Dominic Pain

Then I get into top 8 and lose 1-2 against Burn. Game one I'm able to quickly combo, game two i just get shat on, game three involved me MAJORLY misplaying with Glacial Chasm and totally screwing myself over. I realized my only defense against Burn is Glacial Chasm and I'm thinking of throwing a Zuran Orb into the sideboard to help out. How do you guys deal with this matchup?

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The problem with Glacial Chasm is that you need to keep it in play permanently. In order to do so without lifeloss, you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam. You can afford some lifeloss from the chasm, so you don't need all these pieces from the start, (Chasm, loam, exploration and stage gives a continual shield with lifeloss), and attempt to dredge/gamble/crop into an additional Stage.
So obtaining a Chasmshield is definitely a possibility, but it's statistically much harder to accomplish than a quick token. It has let me down more often than it succeeded, so I'd say to mull for a fast combo, and consider the chasmshield as a cornercase backupplan.

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Originally Posted by Rivfader

you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam.

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Yeah, my problem was I kept chasm, loam and stage, and while i could /technically/ loop chasm it would cost me all my resources every turn so I'd basically get nowhere. As i tried to pull myself out of the hole I dug, I took too much damage from chasm, combined with the few turns I wasn't under it and just got totally screwed

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Originally Posted by Rivfader

The problem with Glacial Chasm is that you need to keep it in play permanently. In order to do so without lifeloss, you need to have exploration, loam, Chasm, 2 Stages and enough lands to copy Chasm and play loam. You can afford some lifeloss from the chasm, so you don't need all these pieces from the start, (Chasm, loam, exploration and stage gives a continual shield with lifeloss), and attempt to dredge/gamble/crop into an additional Stage.
So obtaining a Chasmshield is definitely a possibility, but it's statistically much harder to accomplish than a quick token. It has let me down more often than it succeeded, so I'd say to mull for a fast combo, and consider the chasmshield as a cornercase backupplan.

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Also, you need to crack the chasmshield to be able to attack with the token, so the Burn player will prepare a hand to kill you at this moment. Installing the chasmshield also requires you to find a few recurring punishing fires to end the game safely.

It's able to be done, I have done it myself before but if you want to get that all going and you don't already have a Manabond or Exploration in play your boned. In short, it's a shit matchup.

Oh and let's overlook the Moons they normally have in the side. I just call Burn a loss and move on. I do still side in the Spheres and Chalice though.

In my experience the burn matchup is a coin flip. Bare minimum that needs to come in: Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance -- all of them in your board.

Treat it exactly like Storm that uses Grapeshot instead of Tendrills (ie, damage and not loss of life). The gold standard to beat this matchup is a mana accelerant, Glacial Chasm, Loam and Stage. Without any lock pieces your options are: Kill them on turn 3 or prepare to loop Chasm for the rest of the game.

Congrats on the finish Dominic, I hope the Titan served you well. ;)

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Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar

post wear tear you could have. And they were playing fetch lands, so they could have casted it. Blood moon would not have been a problem if you didn't blindly run out the boil first chance you got

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Again no. He had two rips when he wear teared chalice so your line of grip on cb, grip on rip, gamble for loam doesn't work. Also, if i wait on boil, there's a higher chance it gets countered. Maybe i could have waited but that doesn't prevent him from reaching blood moon; that gives him a better chance to cast it.

I played in a tournament yesterday and I drew the first 3 rounds in a row (I faced Miracles two times and a "carefully ponderer" with Team America, but I'm sure he didn't slow play).

At the end I was very demoralized (3 draws ended my path like 3 losses).

I play RG Lands for a month now and I'm looking for some advices from who plays a lot longer this deck about how to improve my speed...

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Lou Key

I play RG Lands for a month now and I'm looking for some advices from who plays a lot longer this deck about how to improve my speed...

Thanks

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Play more. It's a complex deck that takes time to get the hang of. I played Grixis Control in Modern last week for the first time ever. I was slow and got stomped. I pulled out Lands for a friendly after and played fast and fine. It's a skill that comes with practice and thus, really only you can help yourself in this endeavour.

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

Again no. He had two rips when he wear teared chalice so your line of grip on cb, grip on rip, gamble for loam doesn't work. Also, if i wait on boil, there's a higher chance it gets countered. Maybe i could have waited but that doesn't prevent him from reaching blood moon; that gives him a better chance to cast it.

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But you didn't know that, the line was better. Grip, grip, boil, ride your rishadan ports to victory. 3rd grip the blood moon when it comes down. Is it so hard to say you misplayed the boil? You played it like it was a choke, and you got punished. Blaming your blunder on a card you wish it was is counter intuitive to sharpening your playing ability. You didn't need choke to win, you needed to play that round better.

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Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar

But you didn't know that, the line was better. Grip, grip, boil, ride your rishadan ports to victory. 3rd grip the blood moon when it comes down. Is it so hard to say you misplayed the boil? You played it like it was a choke, and you got punished. Blaming your blunder on a card you wish it was is counter intuitive to sharpening your playing ability. You didn't need choke to win, you needed to play that round better.

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I agree that I played Boil like Choke, which may or may not have been a mistake. If I don't play Boil when I do, then he very likely untaps and plays Jace or something else awful. If I don't play it there, it also has a higher chance of getting countered. I was reasonably sure he didn't have a counter that turn because he didn't counter Chalice (which he would have Forced if he could have), so waiting only makes it more likely that Boil gets countered. In any case, you're still absolutely wrong about the line you're suggesting. When he played Wear Tear on Chalice at the end of my turn, he untaps and plays Top. He then has a board of two Rips, a Jace, a Top, and a Counterbalance. I'd used two Grips on two Blood Moons earlier. At this point, I have a bunch of targets to get with Grip and not enough of them, and waiting to play Boil so he has one more Island in play doesn't really change this. Likely, when he gets to four mana he plays Jace and I'm done for. By playing Boil when I did, I at least stalled Jace for several turns to try to draw something. If I have Choke in that situation, then my Ports become way, way better and he likely casts only Jace for the rest of the game, and maybe not even Jace. Remember, he did not have the Wear Tear for a very long time (or he would have hit the Chalice sooner) and with my Ports I have a reasonable chance of keeping him off fusing it to destroy both Chalice and Choke at the same time.

I think you're unreasonably attached to Boil. Choke, at a cheaper mana cost, has a far better affect, and this far better affect outweighs a great deal the fact that it can be Wear Teared. Whether I made a mistake with Boil or not is beside the point, and you haven't even offered a good reason as to why the way I played it was a mistake, since you've repeatedly declined to respond to my reasoning with your own. The point is, if I have Choke instead of Boil, I'm way more likely to win the game, and from this, we can take away the fact that we should be playing Choke in our boards and not Boil.

To the earlier poster who asked about Sylvan Library:

My final impression is that it is an awesome freaking card that can really pull us ahead against Miracles. That said, I never seemed to have any luck boarding it in against other matches and found that it only lined up well against that one deck's gameplan. Play, try it out, it's great, but probably not a necessity. I'd rather have more Chokes or Chalices, which can be used in multiple matchups.

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

I agree that I played Boil like Choke, which may or may not have been a mistake. If I don't play Boil when I do, then he very likely untaps and plays Jace or something else awful. If I don't play it there, it also has a higher chance of getting countered. I was reasonably sure he didn't have a counter that turn because he didn't counter Chalice (which he would have Forced if he could have), so waiting only makes it more likely that Boil gets countered. In any case, you're still absolutely wrong about the line you're suggesting. When he played Wear Tear on Chalice at the end of my turn, he untaps and plays Top. He then has a board of two Rips, a Jace, a Top, and a Counterbalance. I'd used two Grips on two Blood Moons earlier. At this point, I have a bunch of targets to get with Grip and not enough of them, and waiting to play Boil so he has one more Island in play doesn't really change this. Likely, when he gets to four mana he plays Jace and I'm done for. By playing Boil when I did, I at least stalled Jace for several turns to try to draw something. If I have Choke in that situation, then my Ports become way, way better and he likely casts only Jace for the rest of the game, and maybe not even Jace. Remember, he did not have the Wear Tear for a very long time (or he would have hit the Chalice sooner) and with my Ports I have a reasonable chance of keeping him off fusing it to destroy both Chalice and Choke at the same time.

I think you're unreasonably attached to Boil. Choke, at a cheaper mana cost, has a far better affect, and this far better affect outweighs a great deal the fact that it can be Wear Teared. Whether I made a mistake with Boil or not is beside the point, and you haven't even offered a good reason as to why the way I played it was a mistake, since you've repeatedly declined to respond to my reasoning with your own. The point is, if I have Choke instead of Boil, I'm way more likely to win the game, and from this, we can take away the fact that we should be playing Choke in our boards and not Boil.

To the earlier poster who asked about Sylvan Library:

My final impression is that it is an awesome freaking card that can really pull us ahead against Miracles. That said, I never seemed to have any luck boarding it in against other matches and found that it only lined up well against that one deck's gameplan. Play, try it out, it's great, but probably not a necessity. I'd rather have more Chokes or Chalices, which can be used in multiple matchups.

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You are wrong, I've offered insight as to wear you could have played it. ran out a witch into open mana. Didn't respect clique. You could have held onto your combo to pair it with your denial. Have watched you make these same misplays game after game after game. It's not the cards dude. It's you.



I have no attachment to boil other than you blaming your terrible plays to the card. Wishing it was something it wasnt. Back when omni was in, it was choke all the way. Boil is an excellent choice for the current meta. Your prejudice comes from bad experiences from worse plays.

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Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar

You are wrong, I've offered insight as to wear you could have played it. ran out a witch into open mana. Didn't respect clique. You could have held onto your combo to pair it with your denial. Have watched you make these same misplays game after game after game. It's not the cards dude. It's you.



I have no attachment to boil other than you blaming your terrible plays to the card. Wishing it was something it wasnt. Back when omni was in, it was choke all the way. Boil is an excellent choice for the current meta.

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Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

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Because you could have made more rishadan ports and the mana denial was strong with that alone. That is why. I've not insulted you. I have not attacked your character. Just pointing out your glaring obvious blunders. Don't take it personally.

I have victories in multiple 1st place finishes, a recent top 64 at gp seatac, regular posts on local shindigs I attend. Christ. . . the amount of material published with this deck is so limited I am elated to watch your videos and have offered more praise with them than criticism. Been playing magic for 1.5 years. So I'm playing a lot of catchup.

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

Again, you offer nothing but insults and you don't respond to my reasoning. I've pointed out why it was fine to play Boil where I did. You say I should have waited. Why?

If you can't stand to watch my videos, don't do it. I don't need you to. I've had lots of success with the deck and have a couple top 8s to prove it. Where are yours?

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i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

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Agreed.

To cfetchcaviar:

I didn't say you attacked my character. I said you offered insults. "Glaring obvious blunder," "terrible plays," and other phrases are nothing but derogatory. If you offered criticisms in more polite vocabulary, I'd be much more willing to listen. As it is, I'm willing to yield that I certainly did not play this past Miracles match perfectly (I said as much in the video) and the way I played Boil might not have been optimal. Congrats on your good finishes and good luck in the future.

I'm going to continue posting videos, and just want to take a moment (again) to remind everyone that I'm but an average player with an enthusiasm for the deck.

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

i started to watch your videos recently and like it a lot, i played lands a few time ago (RUGb version at the time ) and now i m starting paying lands again, still deciding wich version, but overrall your videos help the lands players a lot, even with differente version, and thank you for the effort, hope you continue to do it :)

of course you in 81 games didn´t play perfect and in retrospetive we can always do better in any game and its healthy to discuss that, but this discussion about boil has been in circles now.

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Fair. Giga, do you ever check your inbox?

So to summarize:

Boil: Great sideboard card, especially with Boseiju and it being an instant
Choke: Great sideboard card, especially since it costs 3.

There. We're all intelligent people and can figure out when the best use cases are for each card.

Now, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

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Originally Posted by barcode

So to summarize, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

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Do it. You know you want to. Also, you should do that thing. It needs to be.

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Originally Posted by barcode

So to summarize:

Boil: Great sideboard card, especially with Boseiju and it being an instant
Choke: Great sideboard card, especially since it costs 3.

There. We're all intelligent people and can figure out when the best use cases are for each card.

Now, let me talk to you about our lord and savour Primeval Titan...

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Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings

I went 5-1-1 (then lose in t8) in a local legacy event for a Time Walk to first, and Time Vault for second.

R1: crushed pfire jund
R2: lost to burning omnitell
R3: crushed D+T (won g2 with 3 RIPs out and not killing them at all)
R4: Won RG mirror (2-1)
R5: Crushed BUG Delver
R6: Won vs Shardless (2-1)
R7: 1-1-1 vs Dave Long playing RG Lands (unintentional draw). Got maindeck Bogged in g1, and g3 I was likely going to win, but it was going to take a while.

R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

It probably didn't help that I stayed up until 2:30am watching the new star wars (fantastic movie A+++)

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings

I went 5-1-1 (then lose in t8) in a local legacy event for a Time Walk to first, and Time Vault for second.

R1: crushed pfire jund
R2: lost to burning omnitell
R3: crushed D+T (won g2 with 3 RIPs out and not killing them at all)
R4: Won RG mirror (2-1)
R5: Crushed BUG Delver
R6: Won vs Shardless (2-1)
R7: 1-1-1 vs Dave Long playing RG Lands (unintentional draw). Got maindeck Bogged in g1, and g3 I was likely going to win, but it was going to take a while.

R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

It probably didn't help that I stayed up until 2:30am watching the new star wars (fantastic movie A+++)

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Nice! Get long and chanderson to hop on the board and chat us up.

If you knew they were on DnT, might have aggressively mulligan for pfire gamble, or rotation. That hand is really good, but is not very controlling, hard in on the loam engine plan. What were the first turns like?

To cfetchcaviar:

Messages checked and a response sent.

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

Primeval Titan is better when you cast it on turn 2. #justmodernthings


R1 of T8: Mulliganed and kept this hand: Fetch, Stage, Exploration, Loam, Loam, Chasm on the draw. How do you play this hand versus D+T? Lost a 50 minute game 2, and lost the match 0-2.

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On the play that's a borderline hand against D&T since it has no disruption. On the draw it's a mulligan since it's definitely too slow to interact. But since we're keeping:

Fetch forest, play Exploration and Stage.

Then dredge the fuck out of your deck looking for disruption (Wasteland, Maze, Grove+Punishing Fire, Tabernacle).

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Originally Posted by barcode

On the play that's a borderline hand against D&T since it has no disruption. On the draw it's a mulligan since it's definitely too slow to interact. But since we're keeping:

Fetch forest, play Exploration and Stage.

Then dredge the fuck out of your deck looking for disruption (Wasteland, Maze, Grove+Punishing Fire, Tabernacle).

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so i played exploration + stage, and got wastelanded, didn't draw another land for a few turns, by which point i was too far behind to win

i was wondering if i was supposed to NOT play stage to guarantee that i could loam on t2 (and not even be that far behind).

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

so i played exploration + stage, and got wastelanded, didn't draw another land for a few turns, by which point i was too far behind to win

i was wondering if i was supposed to NOT play stage to guarantee that i could loam on t2 (and not even be that far behind).

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This exact scenario is why it's dangerous to keep this hand and follow the obvious line. The mana-producing lands you can draw are pretty slim. Not playing the Stage is defensible but it's definitely not an intuitive line.

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Originally Posted by barcode

This exact scenario is why it's dangerous to keep this hand and follow the obvious line. The mana-producing lands you can draw are pretty slim. Not playing the Stage is defensible but it's definitely not an intuitive line.

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i even thought about it for a bit. /shrug

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

I'm going to continue posting videos

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Your videos have helped me out greatly man. I'm heard pressed to find time to play test so seeing all these different situations in your vids is tremendously helpful. Keep it up :smile:

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

i even thought about it for a bit. /shrug

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I had a similar scenario come up yesterday vs rug delver and I held onto stage here (was a bit tighter though since green source wasn't off of a fetch). Apart from not gaining anything by playing the second land the same turn as exploration, you lose your out of drawing a mox for a stable colored source (+4 outs to draw) and t2 loam if you opp does waste/port here. If you did draw a green source the next turn and held off playing the stage you are not losing any significant land development since only 3/4 mana sources will be the end result. Holding off on playing the stage and ripping mox allows you to play chasm, tap green green source before sacing to chasm trigger, pitch stage to mox, loam back green source + fetch + stage. Now you're set for a number of scenarios. The important part of having the green source in hand at this point is avoiding port/waste vulnerability.

I've gotten tempo'd out by stumbling on green sources vs Thalia and friends with that sketchy opener. By the time I could amass a workable manabase their board would be too far ahead. I side out chasm vs d&t because they have a million ways to remove a land from play and it becomes an auto muligan in my experience. What was the card you scryed into?

@ Cfetchcaviar: You playing Magic for 1.5 years says it all.

I think I would have done the same Boil play. You can't give them a thousand mana to play Mentor/Jace whatever on their turn. You need (early) denial to pressure them and make them stumble.
If you wait on Boil, you will eventually run into a Counterspell quite often.

With that being said...gigapatrick, great contributor & I will keep running Choke. Choke is way better vs SneakShow & Storm which is important.

Guys, attack each others arguments not each other. I don't want to see a mod sweep though this thread and delete shit.

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Originally Posted by snorlaxcom

I had a similar scenario come up yesterday vs rug delver and I held onto stage here (was a bit tighter though since green source wasn't off of a fetch). Apart from not gaining anything by playing the second land the same turn as exploration, you lose your out of drawing a mox for a stable colored source (+4 outs to draw) and t2 loam if you opp does waste/port here. If you did draw a green source the next turn and held off playing the stage you are not losing any significant land development since only 3/4 mana sources will be the end result. Holding off on playing the stage and ripping mox allows you to play chasm, tap green green source before sacing to chasm trigger, pitch stage to mox, loam back green source + fetch + stage. Now you're set for a number of scenarios. The important part of having the green source in hand at this point is avoiding port/waste vulnerability.

I've gotten tempo'd out by stumbling on green sources vs Thalia and friends with that sketchy opener. By the time I could amass a workable manabase their board would be too far ahead. I side out chasm vs d&t because they have a million ways to remove a land from play and it becomes an auto muligan in my experience. What was the card you scryed into?

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preboard game. don't remember, except i should have scryed it to the bottom because it iddn't produce mana

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

preboard game. don't remember, except i should have scryed it to the bottom because it iddn't produce mana

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I'd snap go to five then since that hand has no way to flip the deck past the draw step plus you have a dead loam and chasm. Being on the draw plus having the scry you still get to see the top 7 t1. I'd take my chances going to 5 to find more action and take advantage of g1's win% by not having to combat sb hate.

With the overwhelming numerous Miracles decks out there what's everyone's plan against the deck? It seems like K-grip just isn't enough. Boil and choke are great, I prefer boil since it deals with their lands for good. It just rarely seems like it's enough. Much like the match up against combo it seems more often they lose to their own deck rather than me drawing my own hate or anti-hate cards. I've been considering abrupt decay's but the black splash isn't the easiest thing to have when you need it. Has anyone had any success trying something new or old?

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Originally Posted by Nikolai004

With the overwhelming numerous Miracles decks out there what's everyone's plan against the deck? It seems like K-grip just isn't enough. Boil and choke are great, I prefer boil since it deals with their lands for good. It just rarely seems like it's enough. Much like the match up against combo it seems more often they lose to their own deck rather than me drawing my own hate or anti-hate cards. I've been considering abrupt decay's but the black splash isn't the easiest thing to have when you need it. Has anyone had any success trying something new or old?

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Boseiju, P-Titan, and K-Grip. In fact, I'm considering going up to two P-Titan again. Miracles is really a MU I don't like: I would raise the flag when CB gets the axe (never going to happen, I know)

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Originally Posted by Chatto

I would raise the flag when CB gets the axe (never going to happen, I know)

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But maybe Sensei's Top... Time will tell.

Just wanted to point out that it's very easy to watch someone else's games and see mistakes or misplays. I know from experience how hard it is to concentrate on a game, whether it be mtg or something else and engage in commentary at the same time. People freaking out in this thread over gigapatricks videos need to seriously chill out.

When it comes to Boil vs Choke, I personally will never play with Boil. I think it's a low value card that has questionable early game utility vs miracles and questionable late game utility. Obviously there are going to be rare spots at the perfect time where it's an absolute blow out but more often than not it's narrow deadweight in your board. For the nonbelievers - playtest a few postboard matches vs a strong miracles player with boil in your opener and then choke in your opener. In my experience testing - choke is by far the more desirable card.

I hate losing to miracles in general and thats the main reason I prefer the rug build of lands, but that's going slightly off topic.

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Originally Posted by hyp3r1on

I hate losing to miracles in general and thats the main reason I prefer the rug build of lands, but that's going slightly off topic.

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This is why I've moved back over to the RUGb build as well.

I greatly appreciate your efforts, gigapatrick, I don't get many chances to play my lands deck and I enjoy watching.

I think we should give boil a little more time and testing.

Also am I the only one that plays Sylvan Library like a scry engine? I rarely pay the life when I use it and would only do so if there was something amazing in the next 2.

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

I greatly appreciate your efforts, gigapatrick, I don't get many chances to play my lands deck and I enjoy watching.

I think we should give boil a little more time and testing.

Also am I the only one that plays Sylvan Library like a scry engine? I rarely pay the life when I use it and would only do so if there was something amazing in the next 2.

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Then you probably want Mirri's Guile. This can still be played off t1 Exploration and helps find sb hate for t2 more consistently. You guys don't run Zuran Orb so is a bit more difficult to leverage the draw factor of Library outside of getting the token swords'd.

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Originally Posted by chaosjace

Also am I the only one that plays Sylvan Library like a scry engine? I rarely pay the life when I use it and would only do so if there was something amazing in the next 2.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by snorlaxcom

Then you probably want Mirri's Guile. This can still be played off t1 Exploration and helps find sb hate for t2 more consistently. You guys don't run Zuran Orb so is a bit more difficult to leverage the draw factor of Library outside of getting the token swords'd.

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I change between running 1 Guile/1 Library and 2 Libraries in my board. Both work wonderfully in different scenarios.

I tend to use the libraries for my miracles and d&t matchups. Since I'm likely to get atleast 1 token +20 life, the library is awesome in those long matchups. I use guile in matchups where I need sideboard spells, but I feel my loam engine won't be completely turned off via a rest in peace or such. its gratifying seeing 3 lands in your upkeep and dredging your draw without worry.