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It makes all their Lotus Petals/Chrome Moxes mostly dead and makes LED a whole lot worse. This is more true for Ad Nauseam based builds than TES or FT/Doomsday decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by _perfido_
On Story Circle: It doesn't stop Dreadnought or Mishra's Factory. The W for every activation can be difficult as well.
Hi to every1, I'm back :laugh:
In the last time I continued to work on my Armageddon Staxx and on its SB, and at the moment I reach this result:
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
3 Wasteland
// Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
// Spells
4 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
// Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
4 Aura of Silence
2 Hanna's Custody
2 Sphere of Law
3 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
First of all I move at 61 cards MD, with the 6th geddon.effect (for sure is MWS, but sometimes I missed a more geddon.effect presence in my topdeck. In these days I could test only on MWS :cry:).
About the SB, I followed the Misplayer observations
and decided for a 6x 3sphere, with the 4th 3sphere and 2 Defense Grid. I really felt confortable with this solution, so tks to Misplayer :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Against aggro deck, 'cause in very few matches I observed some difficults, I decided for a mono The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and of the aggro is goblin for a 2x Sphere of Law.
Hanna's Custody, a back to the past, is because a lot of decks run already Trygon Predator and Qasali Pridemage MD, also if against the 1st one is a lot less usefull :mad:
Aura of Silence is perfect for mirror, Enchantress.deck, and could be also very usefull against topbalance.deck, Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.
The 3x of Suppression Field is really a black point in the list. For sure is the only simmetrical lock in the deck, but I really think this card could be very usefull... I thought about Damping Matrix too in this slot, but 'cause it doesn't have effect on the lands I decided for the enchantment.
Well, what do u think about this???
Waiting for yr replies :cool:
_perfido_
Hanna's Custody doesn't really protect itself through. I prefer Karmic Justice as "protection" (not really) than Hanna's Custody. Most people want to destroy Karmic Justice before hitting the other stuff.
Also, it punishes them for sweeping the board.
I tried Hanna's Custody, and it just seems more and more like a dead draw. Granted, it protects your artifacts, but it is far too reactive when you should be establishing board-position rather than protecting artifacts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearSkies
Karmic Justice, on the other hand, does offer a better source of "protection" as ClearSkies indicated.
I'm not so agree: for sure Karmic Justice > Hanna's Custody as reaction to a sweeper effect, but both have to be destroyed before hitting the other stuff, and I think Hanna's Custody is better against cards like Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip, for sure less against Trygon Predator... at least we gain a turn :really: (I know, against Predator again Karmic > Hanna, also if for sure we'll lose some element of our board).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
_perfido_
So I need some feedback on the current Armageddon Stax list i'm playing with. I've been running with 4 Magus most of the time but decided to try 2 Elspeth's + 2 Humility for the first time. This is my list:
4 Flagstones
7 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Ancinet Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
2 Elspeth
2 Humility
4 Crucible
3 Armageddon
3 Ravages
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Smokestack
2 Oblivion Ring
I recently played against my brothers Sligh deck and managed to establish control when I was at 2 life. The problem was that I wasn't able to finish him quickly enough (had 1 Factory out) and when he also was left at 2 life he managed to get a third land out and played Fireblast (I had Chalice at 1 & Sphere out coupled with Crucibles, Prisons and the like).
Questions:
1. Would adding a third Elspeth be a good idea so I can kill my opponent with increased speed when I finally have him locked out? What would I cut?
2. Is my deck better suited to run 4 Magus instead of Elspeth + Humility?
3. When I added Humility + Elspeth in the list I decided to cut 1 Wasteland & 1 Factory to make room for 2 more Plains giving me 15 white sources. Can I lower this count and still play with cards that costs WW?
Any toughts regarding the list will be apprecited! :)
Ok, first off I'd say that if you are playing humility instead of tabernacle effects I'd go for this change:
-1 x City
-2 x Plains
-1 x Ravages
+1 x Horizon Canopy
+1 x Mishra's
+1 x Tabernacle Land (if you have it, if not keep a city or plains or bring back a wasteland...)
+1 x Humity
While I love humilty, with your 6 geddon effects it seems that Tabernacles, both the land and the magus are benifitted more. None of this though will help that much with the sligh matchup, sometimes they are just that fast.
If I had the ravages, enough to go 6 geddon effects I'd love the tabernacle lands, but they are rather pricy.
I've been running 2 Elsepth for a long while now with no big problems, but I also have the 4 mishra's. Stax just rarely races anything.
I will do some more testing before I decide wether I like Humility or not. Right now I would probably switch them out and get Magus back in but I haven't played with Humility enough to say if it's for the better. If I start to like it I will put a third in the list and reducing the amount of Geddon effects to either 4 or 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
About the land changes:
I want the fourth Factory back in for sure and if I could find room, Wasteland aswell. If I cut Plains it feels risky running with less than 15 white mana sources when having cards that needs WW, what do you think?
I really dislike the Tabernacle land since it doesn't tap for mana and it could screw you up if you get it in your starting hand. If it is good enough to make up for it I don't know but I have a hard time adding it to the list (I don't really have all these cards, some of them I proxy since I only play casual anyways).
Horizon Canopy seems decent and I could probably give it a try. Perhaps even as a 2-of. It would make you a bit more fragile against Wasteland but with 4 Crucibles and with all the tax effects this deck has I believe it's rare that your opponent wants to use Wasteland against you, am I right?
Anyways, I just want the deck to have a faster clock then 10 turns (1 Mishra) when I establish control and running with 4 Factories is a good start. I'll do some more testing with that and if it still doesn't satisfy me i'll try to make room for the third Elspeth I mentioned.
You don't like the tabernacle land? SHAME on you, its amazing. I've been running different variations of armageddon stax back since winter of 05/06. Everytime I try to take the tabernacle lands out of my list I find it performs worse. I run 26 lands though, with 2 of them being tabernacles. The ability to go geddon then drop a tabernacle is too great to pass up. Who cares if it doesn't tap for mana. Don't consider it as a land, consider it as a business card taxing effect that doesn't use the stack, and can be discarded to diamond. Even when I ran magus, I still had 1-2 tabernacles main, they are just that good. They have the ability to turn the game around. I've won a lot of games being able to geddon then tabernacle after that to clear their board.
If you really want the deck to be faster, and arn't going to play humilty there are other options such as exalted angel and windborn muse.
Well, even if I ignore my feelings for Tabernacle and I decide to run it I have a hard time with slots as it is. If I would drop all cards that require WW then perhaps I would be able to squeeze in 1-2 Tabernacle but it would be tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wes
Must have cards (my opinion):
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4-6 Armageddon/Ravages
4 Crucible
3-4 Flagstones
3-4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3-4 Smokestack
So 45-50 slots are already used if you ask me. With these you then have a total of 18-20 lands and 7-8 white mana sources. You want around 4-8 more lands (24-26 total) in the deck and if running cards that require WW I think atleast 14 white mana sources is necessary (tell me if i'm wrong about this). So if this is the case, the 4-8 slots you have for mana will all be used up by either Plains and/or possibly Horizon Canopy meaning no place left for Tabernacle.
About the other wincons:
Exalted Angel is a nice wincon when you've established control but the fact that it doesn't help with locking your opponent down is a big downside. If Exalted Angel would read: "You draw Exalted Angel only after you have established control" then it would rock but that's not the case, is it? ;)
Windborn Muse is not bad but I would say Magus is just better. Perhaps a deck that runs both would be able to get a faster clock without losing to much control power? For example 4 Magus & 2 Muse coupled with the included 4 Ghostly Prison to give a total of 6 Propaganda effects?
For now I will keep 2 Elspeth & 4 Factories as my wincon cause I really see the potential in Elspeth. The only thing that makes it questionable is the fact that Elspeth requires WW but other then that I see no reason to ask for a different wincon cause when you're reading Elspeth you just shout: "Synergy!" :)
Have people tested out Baneslayer Angel in Angel Stax? I know that Exalted Angel has not been popular in recent builds, but has anyone given this Angel a shot in Stax? I can potentially see her being played as a 1-2 ofs in non-Humility or Moat deck versions. With Chalice protection, she can balance the lifeloss from the earlier turns and race Tombstalkers for the win. From playing the deck, I disliked Exalted Angel from her mana investment, especially if you don't have protection, Exalted Angel really is an expensive vulnerable creature. Hitting 3WW isn't that hard for the deck and I've tried out Battlegrace Angel in place of exalted Angel but the line wasn't clear which was better. Baneslayer seems like it would fill the new role in Angel Stax if that version of White Stax is still viable in today's meta.
I run 10 white sources, not counting the diamonds, with 3 humilities and 2 elsepths, and still fit 2 tabernacles. I've found 4 Cities to be a bit too much for my taste though. Hell, I splash for green also. Colored mana hasn't been a problem so far...
Baneslayer is a good finisher in stax indeed but in my armageddon stax build i don't have a space for her. My finisher's are mishra's factory and magus of the tabernacle only.
this. 3-4 Maguses and 3-4 Factories are enough. play additional finishers only if you think they can really help you locking your opponents down. it depends on your meta like:Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Windborn Muse if your meta has lots of swarm aggros, especially Goblins. though just siding some Spheres of Law in can be better because of Incinerators.
Aven Mindcensor if your meta has lots of Progenitus and Survivals. also helps our mana denial strategy locking fetchlands. imo it's the best choise but i'm still not sure it earns its slot.
Elspeth can be good against Thresh decks being some kind of Maze of Ith which can suddenly win you a game. nice against some heavy control decks too, but i still think it's bad unless you run Moats and Humilities. very often it will become just a single 1/1 soldier for 4 mana and +1/+1 for their Tarmo because they will have creatures which can't attack you because of Prisons but can easily attack your Elspeth.
Angels are only good against stompies (flying, protection from dragons and having a lot of dead cards matters) and burn/sligh decks (lifegain matters). if these ones are popular, running some Angels (Exalted or new ones) can be a good choise.
If your meta is random or unknown, don't bother yourself adding unneccesary finishers. just add some more Geddons or Oblivion Rings.
upd: sometimes Guardian of the Guildpact can be interesting too.
another thought: what do you think about Peacekeeper? it can give us a lot of time against decks without removal (Merfolk) or decks, which only removal is StP/PtE (tons of decks).
In my build having magus killed really hurts my aggro matchup but thats normal in any armageddon stax deck, thats why there's dutch stax. For me adding more threats seems kinda off since stax isn't built to win fast games. But if a white metalworker would be made in the future i'll surely cut magus of the tabernacle in my list.
Currently i've change several parts of my main deck, i've been running 4 tangle wires and 2 bottled cloisters, the spots they took where 2 exalted angel, 3 oring and horizon canopy.
Im running 24 lands and it seems okay. Tanglewire was better that i expected though, but when tanglewire + bottled cloister hits the board at the same time the tempo boost i gain is very nice. Though a normal tanglewire could only save you 1-2 turns, sometimes its enough to top deck something useful. its like what oring does though oring is more permanent compared to tangle wire.
Firstly, I don't confess to be a Legacy expert since i've been away from Magic for quite some time but I have a few questions for the experts.
1. Assuming I don't have access to either Moats or Tabernacle Land is there any point attempting a build with Elspeth and Humility or should I stick with the Magus? I have noticed builds with Elspeth generally run Moat so I assume the answer is go with the Magus?
2. How do you rate the two builds? Is the Elspeth build significantly better assuming you have all the needed cards?
3. When running a build with Elspeth, do you actually produce the 1/1's or just use Elspeth to pump the Factories?
Sorry if they seem like daft questions, please bear with me!
1. Moat protects Elspeth, Ghostly Prison doesn't. i think, it's the most important reason not to run Elspeth in traditional build. there are better fast finishers even if you feel you need them. though Humility can be a nice card if your meta consists of a lot of Survivals, Pridemages and Progenitus. in such meta you can replace Magus with it or better side it in instead of Magus. and i still think you shouldn't run Elspeth if you do so, Mishra's paired with Crucible are awesome enough under Humility to win. main trouble with Humility is it's WW cost, because of which you will sometimes be not able to cast it fast enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizmox
@Tabernacle land: it isn't that nessesary at all. i can put my hands on it but don't play it since last year just because it hurted me more than helped. the first expensive card for Armageddon Stax should be Ravages of War. and maybe second one should be Ravages too. and only then think about Moats and Tabernacles unless you need them for other decks too.
2. i haven't full set of Moats (and still can't decide if i really need it) so i've tested Dutch Stax in mws only (unlike traditional build). and the only thing i can say about it is that your dick should be at least 50 cm at length if you want to be successful in mws with it. i almost always get multiple Humilities and Moats, no 4th mana, no 2nd white mana and so on. maybe it's just me or just mws shuffle engine, but this deck is really more random, than Armageddon one :cool:
3. it depends. use it as Kor Haven if you are pressed by a single beater. if you are safe enough or can race your opponent count his hp and deside how you can kill him faster: in Bitterblossom mode or in pump one. second one is usually more effective unless he plays some kind of powerful lifegain. plus sometimes Elspeth just should feed your Smokestack until your opponent is weak enough not to resist your attack.
Thanks for the in depth responses, are much appreciated!Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
I think that's answered all my questions and i'll just stick with my Magus build. I'll see if I can get hold of a couple of Ravages since I currently only have 4 geddon to play with.
Many Thanks! Nizmox
Hello,Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizmox
Before purchasing ravages of war play with 4 geddons then if you see that the 4 geddons are lacking thats when the time you could buy ravages of war. In our place it costs aton ($100 ea) for whats its worth.
Basically ykpon has already given you the differences in the two builds.
Just build the defualt geddon stax at the 1st page of this thread then from there you could do your own variation.
Thanks, I'll certainly keep it in mind. Am in no hurry to shell out several hundred dollars so will make sure I do some serious play testing first!Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Cheers
I have recently been testing out Winter Orb in Armageddon Stax, and it's shown good results. My main concerns to include Winter Orb were:
I needed another 2cc slot other than Chalice @1 to make use of Plains + Mox Diamond or Tomb/City with no Mox Diamond turn 1 play. Winter Orb caught my attention and theoretically, it has much synergy with the deck:
- It makes Magus much more deadly.
- It makes playing around 3Sphere difficult when resolved
- It increases the power of Ghostly Prison (even without Armageddon).
- In Elspeth Build, a resolved Orb allows you to create advantage without mana-investment, making the game state even more potent for the opponent.
- Winter Orb is good (this is backed by testing) against Countertop decks, Survival, Landstill, aggro-loam, and other mana-hungry deck. Your opponents can no longer top and survival for granted and have to ration their mana sources.
Winter Orb has served as a slow-Armageddon effect that when combined with either Magus/Ghostly Prison/3Sphere creates enough time-walk events to dig for another answer.
The issues with Winter Orb is:
- It is symmetric: I think that you break the symmetry with Mox Diamond/2-mana lands and synergistic cards that break your opponent's back.
- Multiples are bad (like 3Sphere).
I have another question: Ghostly Prison and Elspeth are not synergistic. Has anyone got around a potential replacement for Ghostly Prison other than Moat in the Elspeth builds? I was pondering about Tangle Wire + Winter Orb in my WOrb Geddon Stax build. Here's a rough list that I've been testing.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory/Rishadan Port (needs testing in the WOrb build)
4 Wasteland
6 Plains
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Elspeth
SB:
4 Oblivion Ring
yadayada
Note that Ghost /Quarter also becomes very potent in WOrb builds but since the W requirement of the deck is too high, I did not include it.
Here's a ruling question:
If 1 Winter Orb in play is tapped and the other is untapped, do you get to untap all lands? Which Winter Orb effect would affect the gamestate?
In Magic, "can't" always wins from "can". If one card (in play) says you are allowed to do something and the other says you are not allowed, you are not allowed to do that something. So you can't untap all lands in that case.
Ok. I've been testing this deck lately, and I really like it, BUT...
How do you beat Krosan Grip / Qasali Pridemage?
I can't seem to beat anything aggressive (Aggro-Loam, Thresh) that has 4 K-Grip in the SB in games 2 and 3. It's always at the point where I'm about to lock up the board, with Smokestack or Ghostly Prisons, or whatnot, and he K-Grips a key lock component and then it all falls apart.
EDIT: Maybe take a cue from Enchantress and play Karmic Justice in the SB?
@crz87
Winter Orb seems a nice addition its like a mini armageddon. It also makes all your lock parts much stronger. but you'll be suffering it aswell, maybe adding mana arftifacts might work...
I think 2 is the right number for flagstones of trokair, before i used to run 3 but i lowered it down to 2 because drawing them in multiples early on will slow you down greatly.
Ghostly Prison's number for me should 4 , its your early defense mechanism as compared to magus and works very well with both geddon and winter orb.
Tanglewire works well with winter orb aswell but i don't know what to cut for it. In my build i run 2 bottled cloister and 4 tangle wires. Maybe 3 winter orb could fit it reducing the numbers of some of your lock parts.
Maybe this list could work..
Mana [30]
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
2 flagstone of trokair
3 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
8 plains
4 mox diamond
2 coldsteel heart / marble diamond
Utilities [30]
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 tangle wire
3 winter orb
3 crusible of worlds
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
4 ghostly prison
3 magus of the tabernacle
or -3 tanglewire +1 armageddon +1 crusible +1 winter orb / magus
@MTG-Fan
krosan grips, pridemage, ingot chewer, shattering spree, serenity, etc would really destory this deck...
karmic justice might work if your meta is well prepared for stax..
My annual two cents:
1. Don't cut any amount of Crucibles from Stax, ever. Not unless an insane artifact tutor is printed. Something along the lines of Enlightened tutor with "can't be countered, draw a card" added.
2. I have gone from four Flagstones to three solely because I don't have enough Plains for four. I'm still seeing unkeepable hands way more often because of a mixture of non-Tomb/City lands than multiples of Flagstones. Well, it's not like three are essential but I've found it comfortable.
3. If you want to maindeck jank like Marble Diamond, you're on the wrong trek. It makes part of your deck better by making another part worse. As a deck that hugely relies on the impact of individual spells, Stax is especially hurt by the inclusion of mere support cards. I'd try with some amount of Chrome Moxen, and if that doesn't work, ditch the idea and try a build that diverges less from the classic forms (add just two or three Orbs or something instead of going all-out).
4. Orb and Wire are nice, but I don't think cutting stronger effects like Geddon and Smokestack is the way to shore up Stax's weaknesses. Especially since both also have synergy with Orb/Wire. Incidentally, if you want to cut something, try the fourth 3sphere, as they are useless in multiples, too (unless your meta is very combo/blue/burn). So ... I prefer your alternative configuration.
I've been cutting the 4th Sphere, since it's godlike on turn ones (but you sometimes don't pull off 3cc turn ones). It sucks in multiples and it only becomes effective if you played it turn 1 on the play or set it up before a Geddon, which happens on turn 4. So drawing into that sphere on turn 3/4 is better than having 2 in your hand. Board in the 4th sphere against Landstill/Thresh/combo and you're good.
Like I mentioned, one reason why I wanted to play Winter Orb was to find slots for the 2cc drop. I've tested Sphere of Resistance but that card hurt me more since resolving 4cc spells is much harder. Sphere + Orb does set up a nice lock but you're hurt by it too.
In my testing with WOrb, you can play around it very easily. It's basically as asymmetrical as any of the symmetrical cards (3Sphere, Geddon, Smokestack) in this deck. You have 2-mana lands to untap, and Mox Diamond counts in as well. You can have 3cc open most of the time per turn. The land count is high in this deck so if you play and untap a land each turn, you can get up to 4 mana a turn.
WOrb has given me much opportunity. Without Angels, my deck is much slower, and given the crap card advantage in Stax, WOrb serves as a pseudo card-draw i.e. by delaying turns so that you can draw into an answer. My first experiment with WOrb was in blue Stax, where you can abuse Tangle Wires to the fullest.
I tested a couple of games last night, and I had a WOrb in play and Ghostly Prison. After I geddoned, the opponent was in a dilemma to resolve spells or to put me on a clock, a very slow clock in fact. WOrb makes your opponent think twice about tapping mana and casting spells, which is crucial to this deck since you cannot afford your opponent to clock you too fast. You need to delay to set up a lock. And the nice thing about WOrb is when they do play a spell and overextend, you Armageddon and answer back.
Here's my tweaked list after the advice. I agree I need 4 Ghostly Prison. Tangle Wire is good but I'm afraid that Ghostly Prison has more synergy with the deck. Tangle Wire doesn't stick to lock opponents out after an Armageddon, while Ghostly Prison can be set up before you Armageddon. Tangle Wire needs to be played after Geddon, which isn't too feasible, and doesn't buy you enough time if you don't recover.
I agree that 4 Crucible is a MUST in geddon stax. Simply because that's the whole idea of the deck: Land destruction. In any other versions of Stax e.g. DutchStax, you can drop to 2-3 Crucibles since they're not bent on the Magus/Geddon strategy.
Lands: 25 (I realized that 24 lands was too little for my taste, and I sometimes get fucked by my own 3Sphere after Geddon lol).
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones (3 is the right number. Plains are a little tight in the game)
7 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
(Tabernacle would be nice as 1-2 offs and you can drop Magus count to 3 if you own these)
Win-conditions: 6
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant (I like her in Stax, considering Baneslayer but Elspeth seems to do what Stax needs: generate card pseudo card-advantage with just 2WW investment in one-card)
Locks: 25
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
Others: 6
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring/Grafted Skullcap/Bottled Cloister/Baneslayer Angel/card-draw
I went back to 4 Armageddon, because they are just too good in the deck. The redundant spells 3sphere/WOrb are dropped to 3 each in the MD. You can board the 4th 3Sphere/WOrb in against Thresh/Landstill. Ghostly Prison is upped to 4 since just one Prison is good enough to buy time. I found that an uncountered WOrb usually leads to harder locks, and enough time for me to set up. You want to board in all 4 ORings, some guides post board after expecting hate. You still fear Trygon but if you resolved 3sphere/Worb, and they play the Trygon, you can safely Oring it without fear since WOrb ensures that they overextend to play Trygon i.e. they won't have mana open to counter.
Daze is somewhat bad against WOrb but even then they're still tied to their mana. If you resolve WOrb and either Ghostly Prison/Magus, it's going to be a walk. The issue with the deck is to get either lock pieces out and tax your opponent. I'm just surprised no one has explored WOrb in this deck. It has synergy with almost all the cards in the deck.
WOrb alone: discourages Landstill/Thresh/Countertop/Survival, and many mana-hungry decks. Aether Vial sucks for WOrb but a card doesn't kill every card. It discourages aggressive plays, which is what this deck needs, to pseudolly slow the clock down so you can survive the early-game onslaught in Legacy format.
Crucible + WOrb: allows you to get 2-4 mana a turn since you can untap and play a land (2 mana for non-City lands, 3-4 mana for one to two City-lands)
Ghostly Prison + WOrb: basically discourages them from attacking since I'm sure they'd rather resolve spells. It almost acts like a Prison/Geddon effect to be honest when they're tied down with mana.
WOrb + Magus: This is perhaps the most painful. They now either sac their creatures or not play spells. They can choose one.
WOrb + 3Sphere: Time walk every 2 turns if they hit their land drops, otherwise time walk every turn.
WOrb + Wasteland: You can now waste their untapped land at their upkeep, leaving them to try to untap basics.
OTHERCOMMENTS:
In this build, Factories seem weaker. The creature lock is set up faster than in normal builds so other than Lackeys, I think Factories don't do much. It's still a good win-condition, but I'm wondering if I should drop them down for Rishadan Ports or even Ghostly Quarters, which is good with WOrb. But I don't want to be reliant on WORb too much in the deck. The main reasons to include WOrb is to give us another solid play if we don't get 3 mana in turn 1. It's easy to get at least 2 mana turn 1 (City/Tomb or Land + Mox). This opens up for better openings and since Winter Orb is a card that is currently underrated in the format but stops and slows down a multitude of decks (Thresh/Landstill/Survival/Sensei's Top.dec), I think it's as good an opening card like 3sphere. More importantly, it slows the game down, for Stax to draw answers, acting like a pseudo card advantage engine. It does suck that you cannot finish your matches, so that's one big drawback of this build.
That's how this deck works in my opinion:
a) you have Trinisphere
b) you have Crucible
c) you have Ghostly Prison (or Tabernacle-effect, which is nearly the same thing)
d) you have a lot of ways to destroy all the fucking lands via Armageddons, Smokestacks or Wasteland-lock.
That's what you have as a result:
a) they can play nothing
b) they can't do anything with stuff they have already resolved
c) all you need is to somehow finish them
I'm sure, everything else is just a support which is here to give you enough time for settung up real lock pieces: Trinisphere, Crucible and Prison. Obviously, i can be wrong, but personally i think i will never cut any of these cards until wizards will print something tutoring for these cards without any troubles or replacing them doing same things better.
ykpon: That's the intention on adding Winter Orb, to be able to do what Stax needs to do: Get a lock piece, Geddon and win. The only real lock in the deck is Smokestack/Crucible or wastelock, which then seals the game for you once you draw the win-con.
Everything else is stalling for the 2 lock above. And to me, Winter Orb is another form of stalling. I've cut 1 3Sphere since WOrb does something similar but not as serious but at least you won't risk drawing multiple Spheres. 3Sphere is only really a lock after you armageddon or wastelock.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the intention of winter Orb, to act as a stall piece (in fact one that is both synergistic with the deck and one that is very disruptive).
Seriously guys, this deck is great, but I really don't like how it just scoops to CounterTop/Thresh/Merfolk with such regularity.
What are you guys playing in your sideboards to deal with those matchups, besides maybe Defense Grid which only functions as Trinispheres 5-8?
how does this deck scoop to thresh/merfolks? I think it loses to green with Trygon but even then it should be favorable. If you're on the draw then it's not as good since they have Daze.
To beat those matchups, play Magus and Chalice for 1. If you're on the play that's good otherwise no. If you really need to beat blue. Go with Dutch Stax with 3-4 Chokes SB to destroy blue. I claim that my Winter Orb build has a much better Thresh matchup than the original build with Exalted Angel/Oring.
Winter Orb will really tax their cantrips. Merfolks would fare much better under Winter Orb, but I think against Stax, the WOrb build is amazing. They'll think twice about cantripping, and multiple WOrb + Ghostly Prison stops Trygon from swinging too happily. I think my main fear isn't Grip but trygon. I'd bring in 4 Orings against such a deck. By bad matchup I think you meant Trygon. Merfolks should be fine although they have a really fast clock. In both cases, Magus/Prison/WOrb effect should do the job.
Well the Problem is. First Round Vial really sucks, as it makes 3Sphere, Chalice and even your Winter Orb nearly Worthless, or at least makes them much weaker. Another Problem is Daze, you have to basicly pay 1 more for every card, because you cant afford to let them get countered. And if they have the god Hand with round 1 Vial and Round 2/3 Standstill, it's gg. Their Advantage is just too big. Also they play Wastelands by theirself, which slows us additionally.
Another Big Problem is Quasili Pridemage i think. He is played main in Zoo, so they have already Answers Mainboard and if you cant hit a fast Chalice on 1, they kill you right away. (Don forget, with Ancient Tomb, you normally deal about 6 Damage or more already to yourself).
Dutch Stax has Humility, which is great vs. Zoo (specially Pridemage), but we don't, so maybe play it side?
@ Sideboard:
I like Suppression Field real much, as it helps vs Vial, Wastelands (even it affects our own Wastes, but be save from opponents Wastes is more important),Manlans, makes their Fetches quite bad and even slows the Pridemage a little bit.
Depending on the Meta, Runed Halo might be nice too, as it additionally helps vs (targeted of course)Combo, Progenitus or whatelse.
Aura of Silence and Relic of Prognitus should be in the SB too, as they help vs. various Matchups.
@ Winterorb: Ofcourse its a real nice card, but dont forget it doesn't work tapped, when you really consider playing it with Tanglewire. Also dont forget, they might play Ice from Fire/Ice on it at the end of your turn. The Idea of Ghostly Quarter as Wasteland 5 or even 6, sounds nice, but maybe thats overkill, because all Decks atleast run some Basics, so they will normally just search for them, so i dont know, how much they really help, because the Basiclands come into play UNtapped, so WOrb doesn't help that much.
Hi there, Source!
I'm new to this forum, as my account was just recently validated, but I have been reading through this topic for some time, looking for ideas on this deck. I took an idea I found here to GenCon's Legacy Championship, and thought I would share my decklist and general tournament matchup results. This contains a near full report, so this is a long post.
DISCUSSION OF BASICS:Quote:
DECKLIST:
--Lands
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Kor Haven
1 Savannah
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Plains
--Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Knight of the Reliquary
--Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
--Enchantments
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
--Other Spells
4 Armageddon
--Sideboard
3 Suppression Field
1 Trinisphere
2 Aura of Silence
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Sphere of Law
Obviously, the most notable aspect of this deck compared to traditional GeddonStax is the addition of green for maindeck Knights and the sideboard. I think that many people who have tried this splash have misunderstood exactly how much is needed. I only have 6 reliable sources in the deck (4 /Moxes, Horizon canopy, Savannah), but I have rarely found myself wishing I could draw the green mana. Knight is also a card that you'll rarely want to play early; ideally, it comes down after you geddon, after you've searched out your Savannah with a Flagstones that bit the dust.
Other than that, I feel the stuff is pretty standard. Chokes are in to help against Landstill (a terrible matchup), Merfolk (which has alwayus given me a couple problems), and the rare MUC. Krosan Grip also helps against these, and additionally Dreadstill.
MATCHUPS:
Round 1: Combo (Belcher)
This is a really straightforward matchup: Cast trinisphere/chalice and win.
Game 1: Won the die roll, chose to play. Casted a turn 1 Chalice at 1. He managed to play through it a couple turns later and resolve the Belcher, but miscounted his mana and did not have the mana to activate. I had the O-Ring in my hand, played it, and simply beat him down with a factory a few turns later.
1-0
Sideboard: -3 Magus of the Tabernacle, -3 Smokestack, +1 Trinishpere, +2 Aura of silence, +3 Krosan Grip
Game 2: He was on the play, and decided to turn 1 Empty the Warrens for 10 Goblins. I was kicking myself for being an idiot and taking out the Maguses. So, I drew, put down an O-ring off a city and mox to buy me a turn. My life goes to 11. Next turn, I topdeck the Prison, and proceed to lock him out of the game with 3 chalices, at 0, 1, and 2.
2-0, 1-0-0
Round 2: Combo (Belcher)
Seeing as how the matchup I just outlined above is pretty typical of the deck, I'm not going to go into it again. The games were much shorter, and the result was the same.
2-0
4-0, 1-0-0
Round 3: Zoo
There was quite a bit of Zoo running around at this tournament, something I really wasn't looking forward to. I won the die roll.
Game 1: Played out a chalice for 1, and immediately saw his face go slightly sad. He played the turn 2 Pridemage, which I promptly O-Ringed, while he didn't have the mana open to sac it. Continue to Waste-lock him out of the game.
1-0
Sideboard: On the draw, I figure trinisphere isn't that impressive.
-3 trinisphere, +3 Sphere of Law
Game 2: He leads out with a Nacatl, which I answer with chalice for 1 again. Turn 2, He plays a 'goyf second turn, so I answer with a Ghostly Prison. On his turn, it seems he has fetched out all his basics when he plays another goyf, so I Armageddon on my turn. I soon play a Magus of the tabernacle and lock up the game.
3-0
6-0, 3-0-0
Game 4: Merfolk
This match was the longest I played at the tournament, taking the full hour plus a small extension for a judge ruling that had to go the head judge. As I stated before, this is a matchup I really do not enjoy playing. They seem to randomly win too often with Vials and counterspells. Luckily, I'm on the play again.
Game 1: I get the God Draw for the deck. I go turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Smokestack, Turn 3 Crucible. He doesn't even get a chance to do more than hit me with a Mutavault a couple times. He still makes me show him the win in the form of a Factory, so the game still takes about 10 minutes total.
1-0
Sideboard: For some reason, I decided I don't want suppression fields in. I don't remember what I sided out for some reason, but +3 Choke went in.
Game 2: This was an extremely grueling game, taking about 50 minutes of play. Early game I answered theats fairly well, utilizing Armageddon and Maguses, and even having the Crucible in play, but never quite locking out the game due to Relic of Progenitus. I'm forced to break every one of his Standstills, so he's 12 cards up on me. Eventually, he manages to swing in for 9 at my life total of 14 by playing rushing river on both of my ghostly prisons. I go to 5. I have the mana to replay both prisons, bu tI have to do something about that. So, after I have a rather large Knight in play, I decide to drop a chalice at 3. He doesn't have any answers for this, and after a long time just sitting there staring at each other, he decks on the 5th turn of time. Perfect, if unnecessary, timing.
2-0
8-0, 4-0-0
Round 5: Bant Counter-top
Well, this matchup made me find another way to bluff the type of deck you're playing in magic. If you use a score sheet, you can do this artificially, even though it happened to me by accident. I still had the scores from my Zoo matchup on my sheet (I had 2 different ones, so the Merfolk totals weren't there), and he saw it. Since Zoo scooped both games to me, it looked like he went from 20-ish to 0 in one turn. So, my opponent thought I was playing some kind of combo. I win the die roll.
Game 1: I have to mulligan to 5 cards, and finally find a semi-keepable hand with a turn 1 chalice, turn 2 knight. I play out the chalice, surprising my opponent; I'm definately not playing combo. I put out the turn 2 knight and he's even more surprised. After spending a turn legend ruling my flagstones by searching with knight, making him a 6/6 after counting the Mox Diamond land, completely dwarfing his 3/4 goyf. He plays his second Tarmogoyf, and we stare at each other for a couple turns, neither wanting to attack into the other. After he counters my Crucible, though, I have to do something, so I throw down a 'geddon the turn after. This makes my knight a 10/10 and his goyfs are only 4/5's. A few swings and chump blocks later, I win the game.
1-0
Sideboard: -4 Ghostly Prison, +1 Trinisphere, +3 Choke
Game 2: I don't remember quite how this game went, but I do remember waste-locking him after playing Armageddon on his basics. Nothing too notable happened; any kind of goyf/thresh deck like this has a pretty similar matchup with white stax.
2-0
10-0, 5-0-0
Round 6: U/W/R Landstill
This is the matchup I have been dreading; I have never been able to find a way to beat landstill well. Hopefully, the suppression fields in the side will tax him enough to be able to do something.
Game 1: On the play again, I lead out with a chalice for 1, which gets countered. I try to resolve a crucible after I get daze backup out, still unsure of my opponent after I see a Volcanic Island and a basic island, and he plays a Counterspell. He resolves his own crucible, and I don't find a way out before Factories beat my face in.
0-1
Sideboard: -4 ghostly prison, -2 chalice, +3 suppression field, +3 choke.
Game 2: Somehow, I completely blank on siding in Krosan Grips, which might have easily cost me the game. I don't really remember specifics of this game, but it involved him resolving another crucible, and me not being able to answer it. Suppression field slowed him down a little bit, but just didn't do enough.
0-2
10-2, 5-1-0
Round 7: Bant Counter-top with Red Splash.
This is a must-win round for me.
Game 1: I mulligan to 6, and simply don't have enough steam to keep up with the deck. He beats me down with a goyf... or something. It's pretty much a classic game of this deck not drawing what it needs and getting its relevant spells countered.
0-1
Sideboard: -3 Tinisphere, +3 Choke I find Trinisphere to not be as useful against Bant, since they have a higher curve to begin with.
Game 2: I manage to resolve an armageddon with a Crucible in play, as he doesn't draw any counterspells this game. After the Armageddon, he simply cannot recover, and I soon waste-lock him.
1-1
Sideboard: No change.
Game 3: I resolve 2 Ghostly Prisons, which are quite good at holding his Trygon at bay. Then, I resolve an armageddon. He didn't see a Force all game, and never recovers.
2-1
12-3, 6-1-0
Round 8: Tempo Thresh
I decide to ID, even though a 6-1-1 or two is going to be cut from the top 8. My breakers were fairly good, so I'm confident.
12-3, 6-1-1
Top 8: 7th seed
For information on decks and some live coverage of the top 8, there's a post in another section of the forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14543
Round 1, single elim: 43 Land
I haven't tested nearly enough for my liking against this deck, but felt that it should be a good matchup for me.
Game 1: On the draw. He plays a turn 1 manabond, and dumps a nuce bit of land with the life already in hand. I play land-go for a while, as he ports one of my lands every turn. The crowd is enjoying his play quite a lot, as he dredges and cycles through about half of his deck by turn 5. Of course, I enjoyed the armageddon I dropped on turn 5. He never recovered and I took the game.
1-0
Sideboard: I didn't think that o-ringing the manabond after he'd gotten the use out of it would be too useful, so I decided to go for more prevention. -3 Oblivion ring, +3 Suppression field
Game 2: He gets another good start after manabond and gamble, and despite the fact that I have a field in play, he ports 3 of my lands every turn, and I simply can't draw into the mana to cast an armageddon. He ends up beating me down with lands.
1-1
Game 3: I keep a 2-geddon hand, and he never fully gets into the game. I drop a chalice at 2 and follow it with a 'geddon, a Knight, and the second 'geddon. It's over pretty quickly.
2-1
14-4, 7-1-1
Round 2: Dredge
I didn't really expect to see this matchup, and thought that maindeck Prisons and Magus would be enough. See the link above for the match.
SPOILER:
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...
..
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I end up losing game 1 without playing a card, and game 2 I opted to chalice for 0 to prefent the turn 1 kill, which I believe he had again, judging from what he said. However, without crypts, and given the nature of Dredge, I couldn't come back and lost 0-2.
Finish: 3rd/4th place
Overall, I'm very happy with the performance of this deck. I didn't test Nomad Stadium quite enough, and think I may have been happier with another Horizon Canopy, as the Stadium seemed like a win-more, since you almost have to play Armageddon to get threshold, whereas the Canopy would have given me another green source and that card draw with crucible is so good.
Given the chance, I probably would have run a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or two, along with possibly upping the Armageddon count to 5 if I had the Ravages of war. Other than that, I'm EXTREMELY pleased with Knight of the Reliquary, and may change the split on creatures to 3/2 in favor of Knight if I can get my hands on a Tabernacle, since it can be searched for.
Special thanks:
This forum for giving me the idea of running Knights!
Matt for forcing me to test so many freaking times against threshold!
The guys at Yottaquest for helping me and giving suggestions!
My dice for winning me a ridiculous number of rolls in this tournament!
@Isei
Congrats on your finish and welcome to the source !!
Just a few questions
1. Was Kor Haven a big help ? If it was Ghost quarter which do you think had performed better ?
2. It seemed that Knight/mishra was your regular finisher as compared to magus, is the Knight really better as compared to Exalted Angel or Baneslayer Angel. Was the 3 casting cost of the Knight a big issue as compared to the casting costs of Exalted or Baneslayer Angel?
Was the Knight's land searching ability played a big factor while using him ?
Isei: I watched your match vs. the Dredge player on video, and of course, playing vs Dredge is pretty boring and straightforward: you either have hate or you don't, and he either has answers to your hate or he doesn't.
I'd be much more interested seeing the match you played with the 43 lands player. Did they tape that?
I think it's kind of funny that the 43 lands player actually had to face a Stax deck in the top8. I bet he didn't count on that. It's almost the dream matchup for Stax. Your main spell (Geddon) just wrecks them singlehandedly. :P
Aww. Poor guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isei
Grats on the nice finish. Stax has long been one of my favorite archetypes.
Well done on your finish!
I recently switched from Geddon Stax to Dutch Stax but felt it lacked consistency and have decided to switch back to Geddon Stax.
Regarding the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and a Ravages, which two cards would you look to cut to be able to include them in the deck? What other changes other than cuts would you make to enhance/ease their inclusion?
@Everyone: Thanks for all the congratulations!
@erbs:
1: Kor haven was a huge help. Since you're almost always at a l ower life total, as your offense comes down later, it can give you an uncounterable way to deal with creeatures such as Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf. I never found a point at which I wanted a ghost quarter, because by the time you want that, you'll almost always have found an Armageddon.
2:As I said, I was EXTREMELY impressed with the knight. Not only is he huge (I got him to a 13/13 at one point) but he offers the ability to search out and land you need. This can include the Kor Haven, Horizon Canopy, and if you really need the life gain, go for the Nomad Stadium (even though I'm probably cutting mine for another Canopy). Not only that, but the turn after you play him, you can use his ability when they attempt to daze your armageddon-- a play that most people end up missing.
I did test exalted angel for about 3 days. Despite the fact that I used to love her back in the days of Onslaught Standard, I didn't like her in this deck. She eats your mana for two turns, and offers nothing when she gets hit by a swords. Knight of the Reliquary at least gets you a Kor Haven when you need it. Also, though it's rarely relevant, Angel gets countered by a chalice for 0, which you often drop against decks that you might need the life gain against-- combo and dredge. Additionally, when you drop the Knight, alot of the time you have :1: floating from a 2-land, give you daze safety, too.
I haven't tested Baneslayer, but I feel that the 5cc will hurt you as far as casting it after an Armageddon goes-- they're going to have more time to recover and find an answer to her.
@MTG-Fan: No, the 43 land matchup was not taped, since Weinburg's first match took forever, and we were the 2v7 seed. If they had had a faster match, you would probably have been able to see game 3. I definately would have preferred to face another 43 land than that dredge matchup. :cry: Too much of this deck just wrecks 43 land though, not just the Armageddons-- Chalice for 2 is unanswerable, since they run Ancient Grudge as their artifact hate.
@Jamspot: I felt the same way about Dutch Stax. I need the fourth 'geddon to make the deck feel right.
To include the Tabernacle, I might just cut a land. I tested for a long time, and feel that 26 land is a good number, as opposed to the 24 land lists running around. However, since you can discard the Tabernacle to Diamond when you need it, I feel it would count as a half a land, so 25.5 is good with me.
I'm not really sure as far as the Ravages goes. I've messed around with the idea of cutting Magus altogether, since the Knight can search out the Tabernacle and become a 6/6 rather than the 2/6 magus. However, that does come down a turn slower, and that's way too relevant way too often.
The other cards that can be cut are either Ghostly Prison or Chalice of the Void, and the problem is, I don't want to cut either of them. Prison is best when you hit multiples of it-- if they have to pay 4 to attack, you can play armageddon when they hit 3 lands instead of 1 land. However, the same is true for chalice-- you absolutely love being able to chalice at 1 AND 2.
Even though I see a lot of people doing it, though, do NOT cut a Crucible or an O-ring. They are more essential than people seem to realize. Even though O-ring often sits in your hand, it is amazing to already have the answer to a Tarmogoyf or a Crucible. Along those lines, a turn 1 Crucible against some decks is almost as devastating as a turn 1 Trinisphere if you have the Wasteland. Overall, I'd lean towards attempting a 3-chalice list, though I would test the 3-prison one also.
Another thing I forgot to mention in my post was how TERRIBLE I found suppression field to be. I've always had a good matchup against Affinity without it, as a Trinisphere almost single-handedly locks them out of the game, and it just did not do enough against Landstill or 43 Land (even though I won the latter matchup anyway). I'm certainly going to cut it for Tormod's Crypts.
I'll be checking in more if you all have any more questions.
But the field isn't used vs. Vial and Deed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Isei
Still in time, congratz for your finish.
It seems bad against Deed to me. If they have the 3 mana to cast deed, they're probably only worried about the Chalices, MAYBE the crucible, depending on their hand. Also, with my sideboard (Krosan Grips), they normally pass the turn before blowing the deed, so you can blow it with your Grip before they get the chance to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy
Against decks that run Vial, though, I feel you already have a good enough matchup. My deck runs Chokes, which almost single-handedly beats Merfolk, all you need is a Magus or a Prison. Other than that, it's used in what, Affinity? After you side in Auras and Grips, if you still have problems with Affinity, there's something wrong. Not to mention, they can almost always pay the 2 when you have a Trinisphere in play, since they're doing absolutely nothing else with their mana.
All in all, I feel the Fields are just not needed in the matchups they're good in, and not good enough in the matches you lose.
@Isei
Thanks on your inputs..
It seems that Knight is really doing well in your build. If so why not bump him to 3 or 4 and maybe replace the 3 mishra's with utility lands like tabernacle, maze of ith, etc.
Maybe a life from the loam engine could work ??