[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by Medea_

I've experimented pretty extensively with Noble Hierarch in the past, and it didn't end up working out too well for me. The mana was a little shakey at times, and it just felt a little worse than Maverick.

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Freakin' Noble Hierarch. I fooled around with this card in D+T when it was hot. It felt powerful as hell in a deck that also featured Aether Vial. My biggest complaint was that it pulled me toward wanting my manabase to better support it because it is a 1-drop you want on turn 1. But as a splash color, that was not going to happen. That is one of many things that make Deathrite so annoyingly good. You can effortlessly run it with Brainstorm or without because in your three color deck, either of the splash colors can bring him out. This just is not going to happen with us, so I doubt that any of those green mana creatures will do the job. Also, its ability does not stak with Aether Vial, so there are times when that hurts.

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Originally Posted by Tylert

I see that you are not a true spike :)

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That may be true, but I thought I would have better success with a deck I enjoyed. However, I will freely admit, but I need to enjoy the deck I spend so much money on and spend so much time thinking about and playing.

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Originally Posted by iatee

I don't think Maverick gains very much from Miracles being gone because Maverick was not a strong deck regardless of Miracles. Not a good deck for a fast combo meta, only an okay deck for a super fair meta.



Not enough fetchlands to feed DRS. I think you could probably build a Junk Vial deck, but it would look very different from DnT.

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Yeah, I think DRS is on the bat-shit crazy side of ideas. I don't have duals yet to support either the red or the black splash. Which direction should I head in as I will need to buy the dual lands.

To echo Finn, the card was very good, but it wasn't supportable without really mucking with the mana base. Accelerating out threats and hate was great, as was connecting with equipment early. Hierarch is also better as a card with Terminus gone.

I am so conflicted between the three options going forward: Red splash, Black splash or Mono-White.

My local meta consists of lots of BUG, combo and DNT players. I can see pros and cons of all three options but I am leaning towards a splash. I sort of want both colors. Is 2 Badlands with 3 Caverns too sketchy of a manabase? :wink: I am also playing around with Electrickery (I like the instant speed over Sudden Demise) in my testing and its been pretty rewarding so far.

Hoping MKM Frankfurt will give a bit of insight.

@Finn: Totally agree with you about DRS. He has little drawback in most lists that run him. But I think he's staying in the format as a staple (see: waste, brainstorm, fetchlands, STP, etc). I'd be extremely surprised if they removed him from Legacy.

@Madea_: Great column! You really have a gift with writing because your words are SO engaging and refreshing to read.
For the sample RW taxes list, I don't understand the logic behind pingers (with or without factoring in the upcoming Harsh Mentor). If we're about to face more shroud (mongoose)/pseudo shroud (TNN)/consequences for targeting (Leovold), why would we want pingers?

As for BW taxes, where do you stand on Dark Confidant? Did he gain? Did he move laterally? Is he more or less irrelevant? I think black offers DnT what it needs: sweepers for unfavorable matchups. Zealous Persecution and Orzhov Pontif are big. We should also give Perish a consideration. It indiscriminately kills DRS, elves and anything green from delver. I expect Virtue's Ruin or Massacre may make a comeback in sideboards should DnT explode in popularity.

@oopsmissedtrigger
I think it's Colo that plays both. He plays a three cavern build and splashes one or two of each. I don't think something like a Badlands is going to be playable; even the mono-white version is hurting on white sources.

@Warden
The pingers make Elves feel much better. If you have a hate bear and a pinger, you can likely hold the fort down. If Empty the Warrens becomes a thing (which the MTGO results from today support), Goblin Sharpshooter is a tutorable answer to that problem if you can make it that far without being dead.

Confidant is still fine. I like splash for as few cards as possible though. It makes it so that I can play a mono-white game 90% of the time, fetching the off-color land only when necessary.

Edit: MTGO results

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Hierarch is also better as a card with Terminus gone.

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Agreed. It might deserve to get another look due to Renegade Rallier who works very well with a Wasteland/GQ strategy and does impact the board immediately, unlike KotR.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Agreed. It might deserve to get another look due to Renegade Rallier who works very well with a Wasteland/GQ strategy and does impact the board immediately, unlike KotR.

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So I've had my eye on this deck for quite some time. Version 1. Version 2.

I don't think that this can carry right into the next format, but I really like the interactions here.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

So I've had my eye on this deck for quite some time. Version 1. Version 2.

I don't think that this can carry right into the next format, but I really like the interactions here.

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Four may be too many and I dont know what they replace, but I could see this deck using a few Eldrazi Temples to give it access to those Modern Bant Eldrazi style turn two Thought-Knot Seers. I think Cavern of Souls is worth thinking about as a Human/Eldrazi dual land. The fact that the the main mana dork is a human makes this pretty appealing, but its possible that Brushland is just better.

I also question the lack of Green Sun's Zenith if you are going to run singleton Pridemage, Ooze, and Gaddock Teeg. You might not need 4, but I could see trimming Jailer and the second Library to fit a few in. I understand not playing multiples of these (although Pridemage is a powerhouse with Rallier in the right matchups), but being able to tutor for them in certain matchups seems very good. I also like a value Dryad Arbor with rallier and green fetches.

Like you said, there is plenty of tinkering that can be done but the interactions there do look very strong.

Alright gents, I have a few versions of the deck on MODO and I have jammed a bunch of different leagues since the new era of legacy.

I miss miracles.

Now that that is out of the way, let me tell you why.

I tried at first to tweak the Mono White version of the deck and simply got crushed. Between lands (yes, winnable, but a grind), Czech Pile (feels poor), and the piles of True Name decks and Elves!, I am somewhat convinced that Mono White is dead (I have a Cat Tax build with 4 arbiter 4 wingmare, but have yet to test it).

As such, I have always been a fan of the RW (I was on imperial back when we didn't have the Recruiter of the Guard), and after tweaking it to the current meta (some more work is still required), this is what I have come up with (multiple 4-1s, generally 3-2 or 4-1. I have been so close to multiple 5-0s even with the rampage of Elves!)

Red Dead Taxes:
26 Creatures:
4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 SFM
2 Revoker
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Magus of the Moon

Spells:11
4 Vial
4 STP
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Batterskull

Land: 23
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Port

SB: 15
1 Path
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Sudden Demise
1 Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 RIP
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Council's Judgment
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Overall the deck feels really solid, and we can actually beat elves (which is surprising to say the least). It is possible that the deck should just get rid of the caverns and run an additional fetch and an additional plateau, which would bring us up to 9 red sources. As it stands, I feel you have to hope to get lucky in the Elves! matchup anyway. I could also see trimming 1 Sudden Demise for a Cunning Sparkmage though, as I love that card. That being said, Sudden Demise is a beating in the Elves, Czech Pile, and any sort of grindy matchup with smaller creatures like food chain. I feel either manriki or manic vandal is pretty key in the current meta as well, as it is very difficult to beat a TNN stoneforge deck otherwise.

As for Magus...

Well, this card has always been good, but I don't think it has ever been better. Being able to take out Czech Pile, Lands, and any Delver deck is just huge right now and I fully endorse the red splash. Spirit of the Lab is also quite nuts as it trades with Leovold and shuts off his triggers, allowing our mana denial plan to stay online.

Anyway, let me know what y'all think!

In my opinion we have to wait, and try to adapt decklist to metagame after 2-3 big tournaments. For that moment I think that we should play a version which can beat decks which get some benefits from banning SDT. In my opinion Wr list is the way to go for that moment.
It is so much better than mono W against elves. Even Magus of the Moon is good, because it lock 2nd Gaea's Cradle. As we know Elves often combo with adding mana from Cradle, then playing second and sac the first.
Cunning Sparkmage is really good. Nice cards against Infect which is hard MU for DnT in my expereience (but it depends how good is Infect player).
I was never a fan of Spirit of the Labyrinth. It is really 0/1 point card, OP when vialing it in response to Brainstorm, but it dies to every removal and opponent can easy play around it.
Also in my opinion 2 Mirran Crusader in maindeck is good option. This is our TNN in many matchups.

@disgruntledelk

I think I'd probably opt for Cavern and Sparkmage OR no Caverns and Sudden Demise. Otherwise what you've got there looks good. If you collect any data about your wins/loses or what you play with the RW build, I'd love to have it.

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Originally Posted by Matys007

I was never a fan of Spirit of the Labyrinth. It is really 0/1 point card, OP when vialing it in response to Brainstorm, but it dies to every removal and opponent can easy play around it.

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It's one of the few hatebears that actually does a lot against Elves and increases the # of relevant turn 2 plays you have vs Storm. I sideboard it out a lot, and obviously it's terrible vs fair decks, but I think the meta is right.

Disgruntled, the list looks good to me. I agree that Manriki is actually better than it was before, I don't love that card, has always felt clunky and niche...but if all white decks are now SfM decks then it's a pretty reasonable sb slot for 'basically all white decks'.

Just getting into D&T and man do I have to say that the deck just feels good when coming from a tier 2 deck. I went down to 1 revoker and threw in 2 canonist. I test regularly agains BUG, elves, Girxis Delver and Dark Depths. The canonist feels great against elves and I'm assuming a handful of other decks. The red splash has my attention. Magus was awesome in goblin prison so I'll be picking up 4 of them. Blazing Volley is for sure a great card against elves, but I'm not sure about 1 damage acrossed the board against other decks. It kills off most things but t then leave DRS True-name and some other elves that are 2/2. I think a one of in the side would be good for elves. Lastly, is mono white dead now? I feel like it wouldn't be just because in my experience so far, I can race a true name with mom on the board
And flickerwisp. Let me know what everyone thinks. I'm wanting to try to splash different colors and see where that takes me

@Matys007

I've argued against SotL on many occasions. I hate that it grows Goyf by two when it hits the yard, I hate that it has one toughness, and I hate that it's another body that doesn't handle combat well. Yet, Iatee is right that it's probably a good choice at the moment.

I like Manriki better in lists with Serra Avenger, but we might get to the point where we need it regardless.

Admittedly I have never been a fan of red or any other splash in D+T since I prefer stable mana base that mono white version provides. However after reading this threat and the one at MTG Salvation after Top ban I'm more and more inclined to go for it or at least give it a try. Magus looks really appealing in the upcoming metagame as we can expect a lot of mana greedy decks and having some free wins here and there is never bad. I remember my friend went 6-0 at the local store once playing Painter just due to the power of Blood Moon. Another thing is that (I'm not expert but this is how most people are saying) red gives us better game against Elves). If we can make it reasonable at least then it's worth imo given the fact how bad the matchup otherwise is.

Lastly many people are speculating that mono white D+T will be in bad spot or worse positioned at least in the new metagame. Do you think regarding what I wrote above RW D+T will be decent though (I know Elves is still a bad matchup) or good enough to give it a try over the white version?

Looking at the Meta data again today it appears that Storm, Elves, Show and Tell, and Delver are the decks to beat.

Which splash gives us the best tools for that meta?

I am not sure Blood Moon is great here, but I am still new to the deck. And my previous posts illustrate I am not expert with the deck.

As a person who has effectively been on Red since Conspiracy 2 came out I will just say that with 5 fetchlands, 2 duals and 3 Basic Plains your mana base is still rock solid if you're playing against non-Stifle decks. I realized I woulf lose nothing from playing the splash when I was obscenely being back to back Wastelanded by BUG Delver during a game I was in with Monowhite.

And the honest truth with RW Taxes for me so far has been that games I lost has been due to flooding which I would have lost with Monowhite anyway. If you prioritize fetching out basic Plains early you will effectively be playing Monowhite anyway. Even when I start with Pia and Kiran in my opening hand I still fetch out Basic Plains. Also you will also get used to sequencing your lands after some games with the splash. It is always a good idea to delay playing and cracking your fetchlands if possible. Besides, your opponent will be more apt to Wasteland your Karakas and Ports early rather than your dual lands anyway because those cards put so much more implied pressure on your opponent.