[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Because SoLaS is much better against the field if you're putting it in the main:
* Recurring dudes is CA
* Pro Black => Angler/Lage/Grisel/etc can't get you
* Pro White + Black => No legacy removal can hit your guy; so they have to find a Command/Decay/QPM or die
* Non-conditional Life gain is nice

I don't see how it's "Reactive" either. It's just a stappable CA engine that helps your stuff grind. BSK has issues with being equippable when you drop a guy, which can be a problem if you are top-decking and don't want to spend 8 mana. If instead you plop Mom on the field, give her a strap on, and go for it...

...well I mean.. no one wants that.

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Wait--so you believe SOLAS is card advantage in a Deathrite meta and then argue about chump blocking flyers and Anglers who are already trumped by KotR?

And yes--arguing that you're safer from removal makes this card reactive, especially since it makes your creatures unsafe from burn and bounce since mom can't help them.

Also, do you see how none of what you're talking about is proactive? Everything is about blocking flyers with a Scryb Ranger (your other guys don't fly FYI) and the other goal you have is hoping to not face plow, Deathrite, Terminus, scooze, Rest In Peace, etc... thank god those don't exist in large numbers in today's BR Reanimator meta. But at least you can beat BUG decks with your non-SOfAf equipment.

It's fairly bad. There are better cards out there.

I'm being too aggressive, let me restate my question.

What specific matchup are you imagining where hitting the opponent with a Jitte is not good enough so you end up running Sword of Light and Shadow instead? Remember, it's not like you're already at 5 Jittes and so you're forced to run this as your 5th Jitte. So the equipment has to be better than Jitte to be worth the slot.

There is only 1 reason I run SOFI in my maindeck. Because the one board state where it's difficult to get through without a Sofi is versus Truename Nemesis. Sure, SOFI has uses outside of True-Name but a majority of the time an Umezawa's Jitte would be as good.

I run Batterskull because I think Maverick is an aggressive deck that aims to attack the opponent as often as possible. So running a 2cc 4/4 vigilant lifelink creature helps my plan of being an aggressive deck.

I have very specific reasons I run each of the equipment and all of them rerouted to the question of "is this better than a Mom protecting an active Jitte"

If the answer is no--then it's pointless to run the equipment over just running a Jitte.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

Rending Volley.

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Is this a card that's played in Legacy?

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I have very specific reasons I run each of the equipment and all of them rerouted to the question of "is this better than a Mom protecting an active Jitte"

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Mother of Runes is not available in every game, nor may be alive in every game. The Swords are useful in that context to provide continuous protection in lieu of Mom.

Nothing about SFM/Batterskull screams "this is aggressive." It's a slow strategy that requires 4 mana commitment over 2 turns.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Is this a card that's played in Legacy?


Mother of Runes is not available in every game, nor may be alive in every game. The Swords are useful in that context to provide continuous protection in lieu of Mom.

Nothing about SFM/Batterskull screams "this is aggressive." It's a slow strategy that requires 4 mana commitment over 2 turns.

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6 mana commitment over 3 turns to mimic a Mother of Runes is not a proactive strategy. Hoping a 5 mana sorcery speed spell will help you survive cheap removal is also folly.

EDIT

Rending Volley is gaining traction in TES and Storm lists as a post Abrupt Decay option to kill hatebears and delvers that is cheap, instant, and can't be countered.

Also, a 4/4 on turn 3 after a cantrip creature on turn 2 that can race a goyf is aggressive. For the same reason a 4/4 Knight on turn 3 is also aggressive.

This build is experimental, but I did 3-2 a league with it. Beat Esper Stoneblade, Storm and Manaless and lost to Miracles and Eldrazi (but he had to topdeck All is Dust in game 3 to win).

I can't say I really missed the Dryad Arbor/4 zenith package, Oath does a lot to smooth out draws and lets you keep some iffier hands without worry about screw/flood or your mana dork getting removed. Bob was neutral, was hoping for more from him but it was more that i never really wanted or needed it when i didn't have it. Best cards were SFM and Sigarda. Like no decks can beat a Sigarda. Titania is probably overkill, I think I might just play Rallier.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Oath of Nissa
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

4 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Mirran Crusader

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

stuff

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Did you know that no Creature cards are ever in the grave ever because Deathrite?
I've never even seen a 4/5 tarmogoyf before. Can he get that big?

Also, playing an offensive card that *can* get CA and has relevant protections against the meta is worse than one that can *never* get CA and has protections that are useless against Decay and Push and Dismember is reactive. My logic foiled again! I should quit being such a reactionary.

SoWaP :eek: truly the end all be all of equips

Forgive me, for I have been humbled by the internet :cry:



EDIT: Being more serious; I'd advocate SoBaM as Wolves aren't bad, TNN/Strix/Goyf/Knight/etc.. can't block you, and milling is almost irrelevant except against Reanimator and maybe grixis. I'm not confident enough that I'm running it, but my loaner Bant deck is :D

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

6 mana commitment over 3 turns to mimic a Mother of Runes is not a proactive strategy. Hoping a 5 mana sorcery speed spell will help you survive cheap removal is also folly.

EDIT

Rending Volley is gaining traction in TES and Storm lists as a post Abrupt Decay option to kill hatebears and delvers that is cheap, instant, and can't be countered.

Also, a 4/4 on turn 3 after a cantrip creature on turn 2 that can race a goyf is aggressive. For the same reason a 4/4 Knight on turn 3 is also aggressive.

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Not sure I would keep any SFM against storm. Too slow and prone to be snagged by discard. Also, as you keep harping "Mother of Runes fixes that problem". I don't see how Rending Volley is relevant in evaluation of Sword of L&S vs Batterskull as maindeck equipment.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Did you know that no Creature cards are ever in the grave ever because Deathrite?
I've never even seen a 4/5 tarmogoyf before. Can he get that big?

Also, playing an offensive card that *can* get CA and has relevant protections against the meta is worse than one that can *never* get CA and has protections that are useless against Decay and Push and Dismember is reactive. My logic foiled again! I should quit being such a reactionary.

SoWaP :eek: truly the end all be all of equips

Forgive me, for I have been humbled by the internet :cry:



EDIT: Being more serious; I'd advocate SoBaM as Wolves aren't bad, TNN/Strix/Goyf/Knight/etc.. can't block you, and milling is almost irrelevant except against Reanimator and maybe grixis. I'm not confident enough that I'm running it, but my loaner Bant deck is :D

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Playing a life gain card because you're afraid of Mother of Runes sounds like the exact opposite of what direction Maverick wants to do. Playing the pro-white life gain card against the Plow/Terminus deck sounds like the opposite direction of what you want Maverick to do.

As for Goyf, in the games I play he reaches 4/5 or 5/6 for about 1-2 turns before very quickly shrinking back down to 2/3.

In the games I play, removal hurts in the first few turns of the game but once you get to turns 6-7 you don't really care what removal your opponent runs. And if I was afraid of removal I would just add a Sylvan Safekeeper in my list instead of a 3cc artifact that needs 2 to attach to a creature in order to protect that creature from some of the removal spells of the format.

As I said, this is from my experience playing the card for over a year. There was only 1 matchup where it actually felt powerful--and that was Death and Taxes. And in hindsight, War and Peace would have just ended those games much faster. In hindsight, had I just had a 2nd Jitte instead of a SOLAS I would have won those games much easier. In hindsight, I would rather run Zealous Persecution if I wanted a card to affect that matchup.

Also, I wouldn't call a card whose main thing it does is gain you 3 life a turn offensive. Unless you mean it offends you to see that comparison.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Not sure I would keep any SFM against storm. Too slow and prone to be snagged by discard. Also, as you keep harping "Mother of Runes fixes that problem". I don't see how Rending Volley is relevant in evaluation of Sword of L&S vs Batterskull as maindeck equipment.

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If you don't think Stoneforge is useful against storm then its obvious you haven't played that matchup very heavily.

Apologies for the last two pages. I was unnecessarily aggressive. I will cool things off for a few days.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

Apologies for the last two pages. I was unnecessarily aggressive. I will cool things off for a few days.

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I've probably played more matches with Maverick than all but a handful of pilots in europe. Feel free to ready pages 50-150 of this thread if you'd like context.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

If you don't think Stoneforge is useful against storm then its obvious you haven't played that matchup very heavily.

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Just out of interest, why keep SFM in against storm? I usually cut them out because equipment does nothing turns 1-2-3, and I'd much rather be playing more hatebears/discard anyway.
And I play against ANT close to weekly and have a fairly good win rate.

TES wrecks me constantly though.

I've been reading a fair bit about the resurgence of the post-ban "Miracles" deck. I have not yet faced this deck (I only play paper, not MTGO) and was wondering if others here had any experience against it. I would assume we would have a somewhat better, though still slightly unfavorable, matchup. Is this assumption correct? Have people found that most Miracles pilots are now playing this version?

After the SDT ban, I personally made a few minor adjustments to my 75 (cut the sideboard Teeg, cut the sideboard SoLAS, cut the Cavern of Souls, cut an Abrupt Decay). I'm preparing for a few larger tournaments in the next two weeks - in an open meta, is it perhaps worth hedging a little bit and adding back some anti-Miracles cards (e.g. Teeg #2)?

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Originally Posted by timmyod17

I've been reading a fair bit about the resurgence of the post-ban "Miracles" deck. I have not yet faced this deck (I only play paper, not MTGO) and was wondering if others here had any experience against it. I would assume we would have a somewhat better, though still slightly unfavorable, matchup. Is this assumption correct? Have people found that most Miracles pilots are now playing this version?

After the SDT ban, I personally made a few minor adjustments to my 75 (cut the sideboard Teeg, cut the sideboard SoLAS, cut the Cavern of Souls, cut an Abrupt Decay). I'm preparing for a few larger tournaments in the next two weeks - in an open meta, is it perhaps worth hedging a little bit and adding back some anti-Miracles cards (e.g. Teeg #2)?

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I'm probably quite an inaccurate assessment, since I'm very new with this deck, but the matchup seems just as unfavorable as it ever has.

Game 1 my opponent Terminus'ed me on 3-7-8-11 and killed me with Jace.

Game 2 my opponent Terminus'ed me 3 times in 7 turns. He was Terminus'ing 1 creature but with Swords-Snap-Swords it was rough.

The new Miracles deck feels just as good as old Miracles. =/

I think when discussing the 3rd equipment flex slot everyone needs to keep in mind the context of the discussion. I believe Koby mentioned maverick is not a stoneforge deck, but a deck that uses stoneforge. I 100% agree with this assertion as most of us are playing the typical 2 stoneforges. However TMagpie is clearly in some disagreement with that as he runs the full 4 stoneforges. This makes it far more likely that he can still make good use of batterskull after the token is killed with additional stoneforges. Most maverick lists don't have the same luxury. In the context of TMagpie's specific list batterskull does seem like a much better option than in most maverick lists.

As for the storm match-up and sideboarding. I personally side out my stoneforges, however once again stoneforge is a much bigger part of TMagpie's game plan. Different context, different decisions.

As for my thoughts, I run sword of light and shadow in the side and have consistently found it to be awesome. Against any UWx or BUG deck it's pretty nuts as not only does it turn every card into a threat (proactive) and CA engine it also protects the creature from just about any form of legacy removal. Sure you can argue that you can still bolt a mom equipped with it or a dryad arbor equipped with it, but generally, bolt isn't all that played of a card outside of Grixis delver and burn. Additionally I rarely have found myself stapling a sword to a 1 toughness creature and that's easy to play around where you may be afraid of a bolt.

I used to run sword of light and shadow in the maindeck, but it has at times felt a bit clunky and isn't always what you want to be seeing. In the sideboard it has been outstanding.

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Originally Posted by Ilnez

I'm probably quite an inaccurate assessment, since I'm very new with this deck, but the matchup seems just as unfavorable as it ever has.

Game 1 my opponent Terminus'ed me on 3-7-8-11 and killed me with Jace.

Game 2 my opponent Terminus'ed me 3 times in 7 turns. He was Terminus'ing 1 creature but with Swords-Snap-Swords it was rough.

The new Miracles deck feels just as good as old Miracles. =/

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I wonder how the "SDT died for Terminus' sins" crowd feels about this. According to them, UW Top Control was fine before WotC introduced the miracles mechanic, and it was Terminus above all else that made the deck so good that every Tom, Dick, and Spike had to play it. It seems the archetype is still functional and, at least at present, more viable than most of the decks we predicted would see a resurgence in a Topless world.

Would we be saying the same thing if they had banned Terminus instead of SDT? I don't know. But I am glad that Miracles is still a thing without SDT. (A) It shows that WotC is capable of making reasonable banning decisions that have more or less their intended effect and don't completely invalidate an archetype; (B) I don't have to watch grown men laboriously jerkin' it in public if I don't want to; and, (C), this iteration, while playing innately powerful cards, is eminently more beatable than the previous iteration. That isn't to say we're favored, but it feels way closer. Sitting down to play old Miracles was more of a "Fuck my life" sort of thing whereas new Miracles is more of a "Do it to it" sort of thing.

I should say that I haven't really changed my sideboard since the ban and still run an x2 split of Teeg, Aven Mindcensor in the main, x1 Revoker, x1 Needle, and x2 Choke in the sideboard. These have all done good work for me against Topless Miracles. Also, I am usually on Punishing Maverick, which helps with almost all of the creatures this deck runs/produces and can give Jace fits.

I do apologize if any of the above is way off. I am still relatively new to the scene too. Just some impressions.

The new Miracles list is better against fair decks than the previous one but worse against combo. Imagine old miracles but has double the spells they need to dig for Terminus.

As for storm and TES, Batterskull is something that cuts off their warrens kills and for the faster lists like TES and Belcher, often hard counters that line of play forcing them into force their hands to lean on their non-warrens kills which means they are more suceptible to discard and mana constrictions.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

The new Miracles list is better against fair decks than the previous one but worse against combo. Imagine old miracles but has double the spells they need to dig for Terminus.

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The old version had Top which was like an extra spell or two to dig for Terminus every turn, depending on fetchlands...

I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think this deck is nearly as consistent. Old miracles murdered fair decks. You just had no chance because the choice was overextend into Terminus/plow-snap-plow or get locked out by Counterbalance. Only having to fight on the one axis is much easier.

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Originally Posted by maharis

The old version had Top which was like an extra spell or two to dig for Terminus every turn, depending on fetchlands...

I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but I don't think this deck is nearly as consistent. Old miracles murdered fair decks. You just had no chance because the choice was overextend into Terminus/plow-snap-plow or get locked out by Counterbalance. Only having to fight on the one axis is much easier.

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The old version had 4 brainstorm 4 Top 2 ponder 2 predict on average.

This version has 4 brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Portent 4 Predict on average.

When it comes to digging through your deck this is better. It does not control the top of your deck as well, and it doesn't control your draws as well, but the "oh shit I need this card like right fucking now" the deck runs 25% more ways to burn through itself at the cost of counterbalance.

Yes, you no longer have to worry about counterbalance. But the deck also draws its answers more often. The biggest weakness to this current list, and it's a real one, is it has transformed from being the deck warping combo lists to fight through its lock into a deck that sometimes runs 4x Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard because it fears combo so much. This makes its performance overall so much weaker and so much easier to dodge. Yes, you'll often get wrecked by Terminus + plow/snap/plow, but they also get wrecked by ANT for being a countermagic deck without pressure.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

The old version had 4 brainstorm 4 Top 2 ponder 2 predict on average.

This version has 4 brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Portent 4 Predict on average.

When it comes to digging through your deck this is better. It does not control the top of your deck as well, and it doesn't control your draws as well, but the "oh shit I need this card like right fucking now" the deck runs 25% more ways to burn through itself at the cost of counterbalance.

Yes, you no longer have to worry about counterbalance. But the deck also draws its answers more often. The biggest weakness to this current list, and it's a real one, is it has transformed from being the deck warping combo lists to fight through its lock into a deck that sometimes runs 4x Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard because it fears combo so much. This makes its performance overall so much weaker and so much easier to dodge. Yes, you'll often get wrecked by Terminus + plow/snap/plow, but they also get wrecked by ANT for being a countermagic deck without pressure.

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It seems like this new version would be quite soft to Prelate on 1 or any non-creature hate (Choke, Chains of Mephistopheles, Library, any PW, any equips). The 1-2 copies of Unexpectedly Absent (and maybe 1x disenchant in the SB) seems light to handle those permanents. I haven't seen any decklists running Council's Judgment or EE, either. And given that most of the lists seem to be straight U/W, there's no Wear//Tear either (or Blood Moon, for that matter).

I guess the amount to which we want to specifically prepare for Miracles boils down to two things:
1. How many diehard Miracles pilots stick with their decks post-ban.
2. How much less often do we expect to encounter this deck in the later rounds or top 8, given how much worse it is against combo decks

Perhaps we can expect this deck to comprise 6-7% of the meta now, as opposed to the 15% it took up previously.