Printable View
Oath of the Gatewatch didn't count as a shakeup?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Regarding the efficacy of the Cat combo in Standard, I think I remember reading not too long ago that a component of Wizards's philosophy for Standard bannings was that they didn't want turn-1 wins or infinite shenanigans, period.
Modern needs to lose Bloodmoon, Choke and Bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat
Someone posted a screenshot on reddit (likely fake, but still...) that had Felidar Guardian banned from Standard, Blood Moon and Become Immense banned from Modern, and BBE unbanned from Modern. No Legacy or Vintage changes.
Less than 2 hours away!
This B&R won't actually take this GP into account, but it would take Chiba into account. The actual decision is made about ~45 days out from the announcement because of the lead time needed for MTGO. This was revealed last year after they restricted Golem in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
...pation.
Yeah, because control is a bad archetype and should be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
WE NEED MORE THINGS TURNING SIDEWAYS DAMMIT
I have Lantern on my desk, so I do not say this as someone who would be happy to lose my deck. But Modern is made with a different set of idea's in mind over a format like Legacy and it should not be treated the same. Cards like Choke and Moon do not seem to fit into the ethos of the format as I understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximumC
Modern no banlist events usually get a wider spread of decks than actual modern events.
If they ban MM I will play that format again, until then I want nothing to do with it. That card is poison in every format it touches.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Yes, I understand the irony of banning a card in a banless format, but really that fucker needs to go.
And a lot more non-games too. I'm all for a shake up, but some things (like Hypergenesis for example) should stay banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Mind posting a link ole chap? I'm not on the reddit and am generally unfamiliar with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
Most modern games are non games. Look ... I mulliganed. Look you didn't. Look I can't tutor / sylvan library / top for my sideboard cards but had to keep lands and spells. Format is awful and we should all be banned for even wasting database rows talking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
This is obviously an emergency Earthcraft unban. Instead of posting here, you should all be buying out Unglued Squirrel Tokens before the spike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
This makes the most sense to me, although it would be fun if additional changes were made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
What is MM? Mental Misstep? Monastery Mentor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Misstep.
Again, probably fake:Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
http://imgur.com/a/dHMd2
45 minutes or so until we find out for real. Hype! Hype! Hype!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
http://i.imgur.com/GFXoxdD.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Wizard cares very little about Vintage/Legacy. This is most likely emergency ban/unban of Standard Emrakul or some cute stuff in Standard.
https://i.warosu.org/data/g/img/0497...9959722680.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
But really, the departure of their traditional schedule is the probably most interesting part, I doubt the bans will be much for Legacy.
That all but assures it pertains to Standard, however much we hope/despair it might be something else too.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Yeah, this smells like Memory Jar to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ist-2015-07-13
Quote:
The one card that was ever subject to an emergency ban was Memory Jar, which has the unfortunate text "draw seven cards" on it. However, the power of Memory Jar itself isn't why the DCI broke with its normal policy of quarterly changes. The only reason the DCI chose not to wait until the next regularly scheduled date was because the very health of the Magic game was being threatened by "Combo Winter[1]." Urza's Saga was four months old when Memory Jar came out in Urza's Legacy. During those four months, there was a large and loud public outcry about the way the game was being ruined by all the "broken" cards in Saga. [Players] either played against a steady stream of combo decks, or they didn't play at all [. . .] Players began leaving the game in droves. It was vitally important to the health of the game to clean things up before too many more players walked away, so quite a large number of cards were included in the DCI's March 1, 1999 announcement, which would become effective April 1 of that year. Players were optimistic that Combo Winter was finally going to end. That's when Urza's Legacy came out and introduced yet another broken combo card to the environment. The stakes were high and the DCI did not want to see Memory Jar undo all the work they were trying to do that March, so they issued an emergency ban.
I doubt they missed the combo in testing, saw it on the net, then tested it in less than a week and found it broken.
Instead of arguing about B&R I present a gift to the community ... a 'Best of, Half a Decade of Dominance' post. I forgot people actually thought Vise, Dragon and Land Tax were unsafe to restrict. I obviously knew better.
Reason: For years has been enabling degenerate strategies running the gambit from control, to aggro, to combo. The most ubiquitous non-land artifact, land card to ever grace the format. 23 of 32 at GP Amsterdam played a full 4. Fixes otherwise unsalvagable opening hands making it nearly a must play. Playing without it leaves you at the mercy of your starting 7. Pulls out unwinnable mid game situations by allowing you to dig at instant speed 3 cards deep and still replace brainstorm. Obviates discard as a strategy against combo and control by hiding key cards. Has only gotten more utility with the printing of fetch lands. If you aren't playing Chalice on 1 or all in aggro strategies like Merfolk you should be playing Island and Brainstorm, why leave your opening hand to chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Result: Brainstorm. Banned.
...
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Nobody wants to hear it. They are in love with the notion that Brainstorm is some special card that can never be banned, mostly because they think they acting 'skillful', 'skill intensive' and 'semi pro' when they cast it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
<run on>
The fact that people are talking about banning Show and Tell and Griselbrand and implying all these cards are the problem when Brainstorm is so obviously the card that makes all these strategies and absurd 17 land mana bases work is just getting comical at this point.
</run on>
Brainstorm is so far and above the power level of some of the cards currently on the banned list that it makes the DCI look like fools. All these poor decks that at some point in a long 8-9 round tournament that had to keep 6 card mulligans without Brainstorm and lost were just fooling themselves. The magic fix for bad mana or no action all for the cost of U, and one life for a fetch ... either play it or win the dice roll and cast Chalice on 1. The poor decks that had to play fair 22 land mana bases were just wasting their $40, when you can play 14 mana lands and 4 wastelands and just fix it all for U.
Absurd.
...
Uh ... the best aggro deck plays Brainstorm. So does the best combo deck(s). Oh and the best control deck as well. But hey why cite facts when you can just rage quit over an obvious ban candidate finally getting it's due.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
...
Does FoW let you keep an otherwise unkeepable hand. No. Does FoW get played in every combo deck. No. Is FoW a fair answer to targeted discard. Yes. Is FoW a good top deck when you are losing. No.Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun
But regardless ubiquity isn't the only argument. It's raw power level. I'd say Force of Will is a card that is close being ban worthy but can't affect board state, requires a reasonably heavy commitment to blue, and is most of the time draining to an important resource (your hand). Of course having brainstorm can gas up your hand again for the low low cost of U and sending back a sandbagged land and fetching.
Sure ... you can bring a chalice deck to a GP. But good luck navigating 10+ rounds without the ability to fix bad opening hands. Brainstorm is essentially a free mulligan in your opener. When teamed up with a fetch its card selection / quality / drawing that is unmatched.Quote:
Limiting design space? Uh there are decks that don't play brainstorm right.
Sure. They are mostly on the banned list.Quote:
There are a lot of cards that can be abused.
DCI has used a variety of reasons in the past. Of course you won't directly refute my core point ... is it, or is it not more powerful (ubiquitous, design space limiting, etc.) than several cards currently on the banned list?
Your argument applies to 50 different cards. The argument is about whether Brainstorm is on the power level or greater as the rest of the banned list. All of you stop stroking your wanna be semi-pro magic ego thinking you are some great practitioners of brainstorm-fu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snap_Keep
Also ... two skill intensives in one day! More than I ever could have hoped for :laugh:
...
That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Wow 8 for 8. It's hilarious that some people argue that the card isn't ban worthy. For those clinging to the Brainstorm-tit as the only reason you shuffle up a deck you better hope for some unbannings to shake things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Thats what he's saying essentially. He cant refute my arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. He trolls saying I'm 'mad'. He says brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything. Then he calls me a pussy and tells me to play modern becuae he cant refute the facts about the card. Tells me that playing islands, and starting every deck with 4 copies of the same overpowered colored card is a good thing. Makes inane comparisons to lands ... which are required when building a deck and saying they are ubiquitous and thus should be banned also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
...
40 Brainstorms. Convenient that you left that out. 2 Chalice decks that were likely mulliganing to chalice on 1 to stop Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
...
If I wielded the hammer,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Bannings: None
Unbannings:
Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Black Vise
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest
Keep your fucking brainstorms. Just spread the broken cards around a little bit.
...
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
It's absurd. Legacy is nearly a 56 card format right now with Brainstorm ... welcome back to 52 card format. Enjoy Merfolk with 4 MM and Progenifish also ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
...
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
BuT if they terminus you can do it agIIIIIIN nxT turn !!!! FRRR only 1GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG???!?!??!?! TOO STRONG. GO PLAY MODERN!Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
...
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
The 10 beta dual lands are the defining cards of Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by why
...
Go play Chess. Magic is a card game. There's a random element.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teveshszat
...
What are you even talking about? We've had a perfect brainstorm quite a few times at well attended events (9+ rounds), the poster child was GP Paris where we had 28/32 possible Brainstorms and the other deck running 6 maindeck red blasts. We also had somebody cheat and draw extra cards with Brainstorm on camera. All of this wasn't enough to get it banned. So arguing about whether it should be banned based on event results, facts, power level, ubiquity is a waste of text. At this point nobody with a functioning brain is arguing about it's banworthiness, only about WotC pulling the trigger on it. It's the Necropotence lesson all over again, they banned / restricted a half dozen cards around Necro because people enjoyed the card. Nothing ever worked. finally they banned Necro. Treasure Cruise was a sacrificial lamb in place of the better, more ubiquitous, more abusive card Brainstorm. They can keep pulling hot garbage like WGD off the banned list (ironically if it puts up any results guess what it'll be paired with?) it won't change the 80%. They can keep printing 'hosers' like SotL and Notion Thief but it'll have to be something insane to incent people to not play 4 virtual Ancestrals.Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Luck
...
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I have him ignored, but yes. That argument is dog shit ... I can build Necro Combo, Necro Control and Necro Aggro. Thanks for pointing out that Brainstorm is actually so fucking absurd, ubiquitous, and powerful that it's an automatic 4 of in the formats best Combo, Control and Aggro decks. How is that a defense for keeping it legal? Glad you aren't lawyers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
...
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I'm saying Legacy isn't Vintage. It shouldn't be burdened with non basic land cards you must play. It shouldn't be a 56 or 52 card format, which results show it clearly is and has been.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Clearly it would help diversity simply because we'd have a 60 card format. Blue would likely still dominate, and if a year down the road Ponder is a 32/32 in a major event then they should look at that. Just like if Necro was legal there is a strong chance you'd see a 32/32 showing for Necro. Just like if Survival was a 32/32 they should look at Survival. Strangely it wasn't, holding one random common to a different standard is absurd. It's not simon says, it's a clear rational directive as stated above in their words, you are playing this CARD as a competitive player or you are forced to target that card. Even more alarming is WotC has tried to print hate for draw / cantrips (SotL, Notion Thief, various tax / rule of law effects) but the benefit of the 56 or 52 card is still stronger than the hate they've printed.Quote:
Originally Posted by wotc
Or, try unbanning some cards with text see if any of them dent Brainstorms 100% saturation. Metalworker didn't, Monolith didn't, Land Tax didn't, Dragon didn't.
I am not in favor of the reserved list, especially the 'Negator Rule' which closed the prior loophole they had to produce foils for promo or limited print run purposes.
...
I loved Necropotence! You could combo with it (trix), play aggro (hymns, knights, bolts) or just grind people into dust with control necro! All different decks too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I don't hate Brainstorm, it's just not an interesting format anymore once it's reached this point of staleness. I guess if I was a child and this was all new to me and I thought in terms of complete decks served up to me by my favorite internet hero instead of looking at cards in the card pool maybe I'd be fine with a 56 card format, it does make deck building easier.
Another fun fact about GP Kyoto:
There are 17 green cards (including Abrupt Decay in this to be generous) in the top 8
There are 17 Red/pyroblasts in the top 8
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, nice format.
...
Can't remember a spell ever 64/64ing. Truly breaking new ground in ubiquity, complete staleness and brokenness.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
...
Let's look at the inception of split legacy, by Brainstorm deck I actually mean a deck with 4 Brainstorms here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watersaw
GP Philly 2005 (38%)
3 Brainstorm decks, Brainstorm makes a 12 card appearance.
GP Lille 2006 (50%)
4 Brainstorm decks, 16 card appearance.
GP Columbus 2007 (63%)
5 Brainstorm fueled decks (including 3 flash combo decks, 3 was enough to get Flash banned) 20 appearances.
GP Chicago 2009 (50%)
4 Brainstorm decks, 16 out of 32.
GP Madrid 2010 (63%)
5 Brainstorm decks, Entomb is legal as well, 20 appearances.
GP Columbus 2010 (63%)
5 Brainstorm decks, now we're getting warm.
GP Providence 2011 (75%) heating up!
6 Brainstorm decks at GP Mental Misstep
follow this trend and it's 28/32 at Paris, 32/32 Kyoto and so on.
... also of note 7 of 8 on Mental Misstep was sufficient to get that POS banned ... and then it's all downhill, there's a double DNT / Merfolk top 8 but it's pretty much been a fucking Brainstorm orgy since.
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...x/62773841.jpg
10 minutes til we know for certain...
I appreciate this gift as much as a child appreciates receiving socks for Christmas.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
90% of the post is simply facts and people still refute them
Its not live yet but here:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2017-01-09
Fuck. I just got an Emmy for Highlander too...Quote:
Emrakul, the Promised End is banned.
Smuggler's Copter is banned.
Reflector Mage is banned.
Modern:
Gitaxian Probe is banned.
Golgari Grave-Troll is banned.
Probe/Troll bans are surprising (fully expected them to do nothing to modern)
LOL they don't even say "Legacy No Changes" anymore. The format is just nonexistent.
As a non standard player, that seems... egregious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
...wow.
Well, I was totally wrong. Looks like we're in for COMBO KALADESH STANDARD!
I, for one, could not be happier!
I guess using the B&R list to mitigate R&D mistakes is what we should expect.
That said, the standard ban seems like an attempt to mitigate the structural failure inherent in the 'weak answers strong threats' concept, and those cards will just get replaced by the next best set of threats.
Similarly, it's a bit off-putting to see them put out so many strong and obvious dredge enablers and then turn around and ban one dredge card.
So um, 8 announcements a year now? Yay?
Quote:
Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.
Hey you guys hear that? The sky just fell
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well,Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6150&type=card
Yaaaay! Foil Copters will be cheap now. Glad I waited. :laugh:
Do these even have a home outside of Standard? Vehicles look like such ass, but tbh I've never played oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Some Vintage play.
Only in a sparsely played tier 2 mono-red deck that doesn't have any better filtering options. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumiBand