Simply put: You are trading speed for the ability to recover from dropped hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
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Simply put: You are trading speed for the ability to recover from dropped hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Rubbish, your ability to recover from hate has nothing to do with your speed, ANT is more fucked vs resolved hate than TES is - even vs Chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
They run more lands, more basics among them and more cards to remove pesky permanents. I dunno on what you ground your point of view here. TES has a much higher chance to die in the face of a resistor (Thalia and friends) than ANT has. You are quite fine tackling Counterbalance or Chalice with your Decay, but trying the same with Thalia, Thorn and Co has the same issues we traditionally have with all taxing effects like Daze as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
That's just actually not true though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Report from Mythic Games:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/mythic-g...ber-2nd-place/
You were right about me not being keen on the changes ;)
I think this draft is a much worse AdNauseam.dec than before and not a good PIF.dec either
You weren't going to approve of anything that didnt have 16 lands and Mox Diamond anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But also, Ive been doing well with it. Online and in paper, it's not always about being in one camp or another, maybe the better deck isn't just Ad Nauseam or just Past in Flames.
Thats not the point. Its more about increasing the lifeloss via AN and reducing the number of outs you want to hit off AN at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I dont see why the MB PIF should be better than grabbing it with the 4th wish you removed for it. If PIF is getting more important for you than the quick EtW playlines (removing a wish, cutting down Therapy), I wonder why you ended up with 4 Rites, 2 Moxen and 1 CR instead of a split which tributes the shifted focus a bit more. Adding a single CR doesn't make this deck good in supporting PIF playlines and neither I think some Wish->DP->PIF->DP->BW->ToA playlines are actually viable.
If the MB PIF is something you want to push, I'd at least pair it with a MB ToA instead of EtW as its a better flip for Ad Nauseam and cheaper for any PIF loop
You don't always have time or mana to Wish for PIF, which is something that happened twice in my report. Also, the focus isn't on PIF, it's on being a balanced storm deck with a fast early game (why I still have ETW) with a slightly stronger late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I recommend trying it before being so dismissive.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
- playing PiF in base wit only 1 C.R. doesnt makes much sense...
- 3 B.W. - well at least the unique person that can agree on this is Bahamut...
reading the report it seems that xantids didnt do much and the main purpose that was trying to figth miracles just didnt worth it... seems that discard in its place would have been much better...
Apart, I've been having success with my TES recently in 3 local tournaments - i even won Eldrazi... not much to say. on average and among 15 moreless rounds the unique deck that won me was painters!!! but not flusters, daze and surgicals, etc etc... my unique change was including 1 bribery in side and SS to try to figth that painters and the emerging reanimate...
as said not much to say... it seems my list will remain the same until my retirefrom magic...
If PiF is what you take most of the time with BW then moving it maindeck makes a lot of sense. And this has better Ad Nauseams than straight ANT builds.
not exactly, PiF makes sense to bring it with B.W. most of the time because you have another threat - I.T. or another B.W., the other option is to cantripping to death or for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
PiF in ANT makes sense because it is very mana efficient well compained with C.R. and D.R. you cannot compare RoF with C.R. in terms of mana efficiency. and Also in ANT you have access to Tendrils main which makes PiF even better in terms of mana efficiency- sure you can make lot of gobbos with your EtW main, but this does is not a warranty.
I can refer for better understanding the Caleb article in TES web page comparing both archetypes.
enough reasons?
my opnion is that you need Tendrils and 4 C.R. in order to make good PiF - the less numbers of these cards the worse PiF engine you'll have. that's simple. the same is true for C.M/RoF and Ad Nauseam. Your choice.
I agree, however, storm pilots tend to be very narrow minded at times over their card slots instead of thinking about the bigger picture. It's not always one or the other because that's the way it's always been, things change and adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
I wouldn't have played or published a list that I wasn't confident in, if the deck couldn't support Past in Flames - I wouldn't have played it (You don't need to have four copies of Cabal Ritual to support this card, contrary to popular belief). That said, if you look at the numbers, I won the same amount of times with Past in Flames as I did with Goblins, both of which were barely less than Ad Nauseam.
Chalice is only better vs TES than ANT if you're keeping Chrome Mox in your MD on the draw, otherwise you're just trading more countered rituals for more countered cantrips. It also depends on whether or not you play SB artifact removal for Burning Wish in order to punish them for aggressively mulliganing into hate. ANT is static in terms of its ability to deal with hate, where TES can fiddle with its manabase and wishboard to reduce the impact and wriggle its way out of a lock. Regardless those aren't really the games you should be worried about with either deck, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
IDK what the rest of the thread is playing, but I've been on 1 Mox, 14 land, 3 Duress and just playing a .5 turn faster deck than ANT and fairing better vs Eldrazi and D&T. I honestly don't understand why people are playing ANT when it's too slow or playing 3 Mox TES when it isn't playing D. Returns or needs to go off on T1 when you can just Fetch, Swamp, Discard instead. The sweet spot is being just enough faster than ANT to avoid its problems vs D&T and accepting there is nothing that can be done vs Eldrazi other than winning the coin flip.
@F.Fortune:
(Chalice) is a thing, and another thing is (Thalia, Thorn and Sphere): For the 2nd thing ANT is just better, the hell, I even having SS or Pulverize in side was in troubles trying to answer those with B.W. the most recent example was my last Eldrazi match up - which I won - the 2nd game which i lost was because of 2 followed Thorn - and sorry but I needed 1 more land to play Decay (my build is 12 lands +1 more from side and 3 C.M.)... even I had to play C.M. or Petals with 2 mana.
Related to your not understanding: I've been playing my TES deck with gemstones 3 mox and 7 dicard from the banning of DTT with perfect success - in 4 torunaments (1 I won, 2 I placed 2nd and the other just made 3 wins) . Sure in one torunamnet I played D.R.!!! but dont think this will happen anymore - now I play Bribery. Sure one reason to play 3 C.M is D.R., but absolutly not THE main reason. The 3 main reasons are Speed, ability to go off when needed and better A.N. flips.
@Shaman: Big picture, narrow minded..... sure sure...
From this sentence:
my opnion is that you need Tendrils and 4 C.R. in order to make good PiF - the less numbers of these cards the worse PiF engine you'll have
What is TRUE is the following:
the less numbers of these cards the worse PiF engine you'll have
you all have to decide the following:
- play ANT with C.Moxes side (better PiF Engine)
- Play TES with 3 C.M and RoF (better A.N engine)
- Play something where PiF Engine is worse than in ANT and A.N. Engine is worse than in TES.
Then the question is: is it better to play something balanced between the 2 engines - means a worse PiF and a worse A.N. Engine? I believe it is not. and I also belive depending on the Meta.
EDIT: Looking at the success of Decks like Slosh or Togores (moreless the same) the trend is just to focus on PiF Engine when playing ANT. just saying...
It seems we're near a similar spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
If you haven't already, check out my report.
I looked at it and it appears we're getting closer to one another, I'm just a little more anti C.Mox because all I use it for is the back end of Ad Nauseam now. I've been a fan of Reverent Silence vs Miracles for awhile and the 3rd /r land for Pulverize is an interesting approach vs Eldrazi. Do you have any thoughts on a manabase of 8 Fetch, 1 Sea, 2 Volc, 1 Bad, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp for that? I probably fetch for Sea more than any other land first but I rarely fetch for it twice after a Wasteland over one of the other black producing lands. Double Badlands seems really awkward just to keep the 2nd Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I would just bite the bullet and get on the 14 land train, I have no regrets.
There is something I wanted to note:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
ANT playing redundancy of Tendrils and PiF is able to not to play so much disruption, because you can play C.Rits and PiF and next those PiF can be countered but this doesnt matter if the plan is to play again the PiF from GY or to play the Tendrils already in hand with enough storm. this type of plays can avoid scenarios with double FoW and Fluster.
TES regarding this issue is another story, when I was playing 13 lands and 6 discards only because of this I noticed the missing 7th discard, because we cannot stop a doubleFow and fluster unless you have enough discard/disruption (ideally C.T. and a duress).
What I mean is that ANT and TES has different approachs when dealing scenarios like doubleFoW, fluster and stifle as example. I really do not use PiF and also dont need PiF to handle this scenarios with TES, but what I need is disruption spells and/or I.T. for more disruption and/or B.W. for more disruption. Sure you can also can play B.W. to beeing countered.
Just to have in mind.
Related Pulverize, I recognize it could have saved my ass from Eldrazi once. when I was playing the 2Sea 2V.Island 1Badlands 8fetches manabase... now i play SS. but still think that aswell... it is a coinflip match up...
EDIT: The hell I didnt notice that list had 3 C.T.!!!! C.T. is for me the best distuption card in the deck the unique way to deal with doubleFoW fluster and stuff.... What a great mistake...
I was testing 14 land, but I don't think it's worth losing the second Mox or Cabal Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I did try a two Volcanic list as well, it was fine, I just searched for Volcanic instead of Sea to do my initial cantripping. The real issue was that Pulverize didn't seem to work for me, I think the best Pulverize list would be running 2 Volcanic 2 Badlands. So that when you want to use it, you naturally have the sources and without fear of Wasteland.
I noticed you're on a 3/3 split of Therapy/Duress now. Did you miss the density of Therapies and EtW synergies offered in games against decks like D&T, or did you find the relevance of fighting non-creature permanent and permission better?
I find the addition of PiF bold, mainly due to the concern about how Ad Nauseum could go with having both PiF and EtW main, as well as dropping Moxen down to two. Has this weakened the deck's Ad Nauseum engine less than it might look on the surface? I mean, obviously you got 2nd here, and still got some number of AN kills, but you also did much more testing with it than just the games you played at the event.