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But when you play cards from another zone besides your hand you can basically think of it like drawing 1 extra card per turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Also, if the plan becomes more ghost quarter centric, I could see adding in some aven mindcensors. Perhaps a build that doesn't include stoneforge and just plays 2 Jitte instead like in that awkward phase when Maverick was tier 1.
You don't even need Ghost Quarter. This guy + Horizon Canopy is already a replacement for tracker. This guy + Wasteland will often be enough, but a 1of GQ to be searched for by KotR is just as strong also. And even just using this guy with KotR will be strong.
What I like most about him is you don't need to build around him. Things like adding a gq to lock people out is a plus but overall that's a very small addition. Like Tmagpie said wasteland and Canopy alone are pretty nuts with it.
I think its important for people to know that this guy is not new. Crucible of Worlds AND Life from the Loam were already usable in Maverick prior, and cards like Eternal Witness and Renegade Rallier and Titania, Protector of Argoth already gave us land recursion on a body.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
That he is a 1of, tutorable, repeatable form of recursion is what makes him super exciting.
My hope is his ability to lock people out and grind pushes Maverick as the top fair deck. We already have a fine fair MU but if he can make us the clearly favored deck I think that would help Maverick a lot in its general viability.
Mav's whole problem is a mix between Terminus and Storm. I think Silence or Children of Korlis in the side would be a fine way to keep Storm from stealing games without God hands. Discard can be a bit unreliable, but Silence used in response to Discard or as your Flusterstorm is pretty OK.
I think the other issue is that Mav is super weak to -1/-1 effects. Arbor, Thalia, Noble, Mom, ScrybR if you run it; it's a lot of stuff. I think if the deck wants to have legs when Pyro, TNN, and Elves are a thing, it needs to change up a fundamental core of its plan a bit so it can not be hated out in the SB as badly. Even maindecks are getting ZPs and Deluges.
To this end, i think you have to cut Mom for either something that will live, or another value engine. I think there's a lot of tension between the Manaramp plan of nearly 12 cards, and Mom; since they both want to hit T1 and are much worse T2. I know that this is Blasphemy, but I think this is the truth of the deck. It can be a meta deck or it can change; but Mom exists in a format with TNN, where TNN says "hey you need sweepers, councils judgement, less removal heavy builds, and flyers" and with unblockable Jittes all over the place, and sometimes unblockable SoFaIs, you need something different. Maybe a 1-of Safekeeper, dropping Moms for value cards so that you draw loads of cards instead of protecting the ones you have (say, 2-3 Tracker.) You have the ramp to get there T2, and the ability to draw loads of cards with Tracker + knight, I think that's what the deck wants to do to compete.
I really don't think it's gonna get there with Mom anymore. Go deeper on the value train or the manascrew train, but trying to protect your permanents is becoming a losing scenario
I think Mom is fine. Protecting Thalia, Teeg, Canonist against Storm or Burn is good. Pushing a Knight holding a Jitte riding a Batterskull through a True Name or opposing Mother is fine too. Infinite blocking against Angler or locking out Marit Lage with a Birds of Paradise. She acts like a mini Chalice against all the creature removal.
Certainly worth testing removing her though. I know even DnT went down to 3 at one point.
I do like the points about Orim's Chant effects though. I'm not sure if discard became a big thing due to Miracles, although I think it is better against Show and Tell than silence effects.
I think Mom is crucial to the deck. Yes it dies to boardwipes but it can also force them and is fundamental to protecting hatebears. You mention decks like storm being an issue and suggest adding cards like tireless tracker. I just don't agree with that assessment.
I agree that storm can be an issue but I think it's just one of the limitations to the deck and only so much can be done. It's not unwinnable but they just have hands we can't beat no matter what we draw.
My personal opinion is you want Maverick to crush fair decks and be good enough against combo that you can beat them as well and have a reasonable plan. Mother of Runes is crucial in a lot of these fair MU and I just don't think replacing them with more cards that grind is the solution.
Has anyone else found boardwipes to be that much of an issue? Yes they are good against us but most don't kill Knight or an equipped creature.
Personally I just haven't found board wipes to be what's holding Maverick back. When Terminus was around sure, but as you pointed out most people are just running -1/-1 effects which don't even clear our whole board.
Re: weakness against Storm and boardwipes: yes, they are our most unfavorable MU. But consider what we have in our main to counteract these strategies:
4x DRS - locks out opposing DRS, clears cards in GY, can eat creatures to gain life
1-2x Ooze - eats creatures to come back from boardwipes and get huge, clears cards in GY
4x Thalia (original) - no explanation needed
1x Teeg - obvious
4x GSZ - to find all but Thalia
(optional: 2x Thalia, HC - the non-basic tax is real, though sadly a bit slow)
That's a lot of main deck options. Yes, most of them are slow to Storm. But I just watched my friend, who plays DNT, lose to Storm on T1 in back-to-back games. He even had Thalias in hand and ready to play T2. Never had a turn in one of the games (he was on the draw) and the other he never saw his 2nd turn. Sometimes MU are just bad or unfair decks just nut. Unless you start packing 4x Orim's Chant/Silence you're not likely to be favored against those type of decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I mean, by the time you have unanswered Knight unanswered Jitte unanswered BSK unanswered Mom, is this really the best example? We're talking you have a God-board by that point. True, she'll push it through a TNN, but so would any pro-blue, trample, or flying creature in the game; or just tutoring SoFaI or SoBaM instead. We're also talking really fringe stuff IMO, like blocking an Angler and the opp having no removal in response. Yeah, she blocked 5, then she died and you lost anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I'm not saying she's terrible but it's time to be *honest* about the deck. It's not winning. Something about that should be absorbed. It needs *something.* Maybe the Mom slot is wrong, but it feels the least integral part of the deck, a part that doesn't jive with mana-accel, a part that isn't a threat on its own unless you're already winning (as in, have a resolved, unanswered equip with a mom on board) and doesn't help with combo. You want to win fair MUs, you need either a bigger dude or to draw cards. Trackers + something else in the Mom slots Jive with Mana-accel dudes. Say, -4 Mom, +2 Safekeeper +2 Tracker. You have a haste-mom now that can fire multiple times, doesn't have to tap, is GSZable, and doesn't hinder your mana dudes.
If the deck isn't winning, there's a reason. I'm suggesting it's because there's a specific part of the plan that is dated and out of touch with the legacy of today; of which Blue has a lot more CA than it did and there's a lot more X/1's people care about having non-targeted affects for. The reason I think this is because Maverick often loses to the other GWb style fair decks; particularly because they are happy to run -1/-1 hate. DGA with ZP, or Junk with Deluge. It's hard to drop a game when your permanents are generally better/more dense, and you have boardwipes that gain yet-more-CA.
Maverick has to change somehow, and I would love to see a viable GWb deck; but it's current incarnation seems lacking. Maybe vegas will shit all over what I'm saying, but if you're in here saying "Boy I wish this deck was good"; it's time to be honest.
Well isn't this the most disengenuous argument ever. I didn't for once suggest swapping Mom would improve your Storm MU. Yeah, storm is an issue; but my suggestion was Chant effects in the sideboard over discard, since chant effects are much more reliable. Orim's Chant even answers a Hoof a reasonable amount. A hoof + dudes is still a problem at that point, but better than being dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun
I can't say if it's a worthwhile way to go, but I think having a T1 White Flusterstorm that can stop them from winning even if they cast a discard spell, seems good for the Worst MU.
_______________
I realize I am blaspheming; and I'll quit it after this post; but it has to be said. Something doesn't work and a 2/3 Crucible isn't going to change that. This deck requires a shake-up, I think despite the anecdotal evidence you'll post and the applications to the board state, the deck has an obvious issue that if your hand has T1 Mom and T1 accel (which is ~35% of the time) you have a decision that can cost you the match. If instead it's Safekeeper, well he doesn't have to untap, so he can be T2, badda-bing, easy decision. With a 2/3 Crucible, Safekeeper looks a *hell* of a lot better.
Good luck to you guys either way, it had to be said.
To clarify I don't think trying to take a new approach with the deck is wrong. I also think there's a lot to be said for thinking outside the bog. Even though I disagree I totally admit that these are just my opinions and I could be totally off base.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I agree that Maverick can have trouble making deep runs in tournaments and puttin up results. Ultimately I believe this is because there are MU that can be pretty rough and feel like you might as well toss a coin. For me Storm/BR reanimator and Show and Tell are the main culprits. We can beat them. But they have hands that feel pretty much unwinnable even if we have the "perfect" hand. To add on top of this there are other MU that are not easy like elves and infect and other fair MU are not total byes by any means.
I love Maverick and I think it's one of the most fun decks to play and it has a plan to attack pretty much every deck in the format. The deck just loses more to variance imo.
For me its shortcomings won't be changed by mother of runes or tireless tracker or even the snake crucible (he does look pretty exciting though).
Like I said I'm totally willing to eat crow and be wrong. I don't think Maverick is even in a bad spot I just think there are hurdles the deck has that are out of its control.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your line of questioning--I simply feel that you are coming to your conclusions a little too quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Lets start from the base of this discussion--Mother of Runes versus Deathrite Shaman. I say Deathrite Shaman because the core of the deck has become Green Sun Zenith, which means that the list only adds 4-5 more mana dorks for its acceleration.
I find myself being very split on this topic. The reason for this is because 90% of the time I actually find Mother of Runes being the superior first turn play unless there is a specific follow up the following turn that needs the ramp. This can be Green Sun's Zenith for a hatebear, Thalia + Wasteland, Stoneforge Mystic + Swords to Plowshares, etc... Whatever the setup is, being able to do two things in one turn is the best reason to play a mana dork on turn one. Otherwise, I usually lean super hard on a first turn Mother of Runes to dictate my game.
Why?
Because, and maybe I'm wrong in this, I have always played Maverick as a complicated "protect the queen" strategy. Oftentimes match-ups hinges on specific creatures bullying the board depending on what deck your opponent has; with Mother of Runes being the primary way to protect that "Queen."
Now this isn't always true--but it's more true than it isn't. Be it protecting your Teeg vs combo, protecting your Knight of the Reliquary vs Eldrazi, or protecting your Scavenging Ooze vs Delver; many endgames hinges on that game state when I play the deck.
This is the reason I lean so hard on the Mother of Runes plan. Why I run a Scryb Ranger, why I don't run Sword of Light and Shadow. It is often paramount (for me) to protect the card that I lean on to win the game. However, there are two issues with Maverick that really hampers it--in my anecdotal experience.
1.) Speed. Not just a complaint about being helpless the first 1-2 turns of the game (which is true) but Maverick also has a tendency to be difficult to close out with as well. Youthful Knights and Deathrite activations doesn't allow you to kill the opponent very quickly. This often means awkward things, like elves killing you after you locked them out for 8 turns because Scryb Ranger + exalted triggers just wasn't a quick enough clock. It means burn getting 3-4 draw steps after you have stabilized the game and them getting lucky drawing the last bolt they needed to kill you. Maverick's issue with speed goes on both ends--often times too slow vs the belcher strategies and often times unable to turn a game around quickly enough to capitalize on its locks.
2.) Scaling issues. Maverick runs 9-10 cards in its main just to speed up mana. Some lists even runs cradle so it can boost its mana production even more--and with all that mana it plays 3 drops, and moves around equipment. This means that Maverick often slows down the game with its hatebears, pushed the matchup to the later turns of the game, and hopes that the opponent doesn't play anything that beats a Knight of the Reliquary. Oftentimes this is fine, but oftentimes it also means double true-name + Jitte.
Any discussion that attempts to break down Maverick to find out why it might be unable to break the meta as much as its loyal fans want it to starts from those concepts. We shouldn't be asking which cards are weak, and what does its role better--which should be asking what aspects of the deck's rhythm and strategy is weak, and what aspects could we make better.
While I am not a proponent of the idea, I find it interesting that around the time we are discussing Mom-less Maverick there is a 1st out of 61 showing with that kind of a list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23559&iddeck=183417). First time I've seen a Mom-less list make any kind of showing. In unpacking the deck, it looks to rely heavily on having 3 mana on T2 - 7 mana dorks (4 Noble, 3 DRS) essentially assures at least 1 dork in opening hand, and it allows the deck a couple options to jam on T2: run out an early KotR; flash in a 2-of Aven Mindcensor; jam a quick Thalia, HC; do the typically "best" crippling route of Thalia + Wasteland, and so on. The deck would certainly be weaker against fair decks, but has a quick T2 ramp for better game against problematic MU's. Thoughts?
Also has Dryard Arbor with 4 GSZ plus a BoP, so you're looking at 12 turn 1 dorks.
I've been playing my fairly standard list with a few 'slight' tweaks and it's been pretty good-
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
-23-
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-13-
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
-24-
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Path to Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
-15-
I know some things might look weird but lets go through some of them-
In the main deck I cut all my flex slots (which were usually Sylvan Librarys/Decays/Zenith targets/etc) for Thoughtseize because it acts kind of like removal but it is also good vs a lot of decks we are soft to (mostly combo) and there are very few matchups where it's really bad, I also wanted to streamline my deck more and lower my curve a bit as I believe the format has sped up. I'm not running cradle or stage depths and instead have a 9th fetch just to make my mana as good as it can be - I have cards I want to play turn one in each of my colours.
Revoker has been doing a lot better than I thought, naming mana abilities to slow down decks that would normally roll us (LED and Heritage Druid) to give me time to set up more hate, play more discard, or finish them off. In the case of storm I've also been seeing a lot of Dread of Night and it's a hate bear that isn't hit by that as well as being easy to cast to boot! There's also lots of other MUs you can bring the guy in against.
"Isn't 4 IoK and 3 Thoughtseize kinda ham sandwich on the discard, why not play something like prelate" - IMO this deck already has a lot of permanent based hate that costs 2+ mana, discard attacks at a different angle and as early as turn 1. It powers up Surgical Extraction and it lets you sometimes play a more controlling role against other creature decks. I don't hate Prelate but I found it awkward, WW could be hard to cast or it could be against a deck like Delver and a lot of the times while the effect was good I didn't have the board presence to make my opponent care about a 3 mana 2/2 or all their answers weren't the same cmc. IoK Specifically is also solid against burn, a matchup I found to be unfavourable but hard to find sideboard cards for without them being too narrow, and I again was running into the same problems with Prelate as I mentioned above.
GP Vegas: Day One Report
Current List
Creatures: 26
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
Spells: 13
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
Lands: 22
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Thespian's Stage
Sideboard: 15
2 Orim's Chant
2 Thoughtseize
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
Unfortunately my day one went 6-3 overall, losing my last two rounds despite coming into the day with 2 byes. Disappointing end to the day but at least made it to day two.
Decided to try out Zealous Persecution based on this thread's praise of it and it was middling at best--not bad though, just middling. Faced nothing but fair decks for the majority of the day, so I'm glad I cut my trusty Phyrexian Revokers for a pair of Zealous Persecutions. In hindsight, i would have just run more Abrupt Decays.
Round One: Bye
Round Two: Bye
Round Three: BUG Leovold 2-0
An early Knight of the Reliquary wastes him out of the game. Game two he resolves Truename turns two and three followed by two Deathrite Shamans. I resolved a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary and kill him with Marit Lage.
Round Four: BUG Leovold 2-0
Much the same as prior rounds. Game one was fair magic and he died Knight of the Reliquary beats. Game two He resolves multiple Truenames and kills most of my guys, but Knight into Marit Lage kills him.
Round Five: Elves 0-2
Game one he thinks I'm Elves and plays Bayou and Cradle which I double Wasteland leaving him with just a Nettle Sentinel and an Elvish Visionary. I was fool for leaving him only manaless with an active Jitte once I untap because that was enough for him to kill me. The second game I made the mistake of leaning on Umezawa's Jitte. It was quickly killed as it always is and I just smack him for 3 for a few turns before he hard casts a Craterhoof.
Round Six: Turbo Depths 2-0
This was fairly uneventful. Discarded a bunch of my cards and then died both games.
Round Seven: BUG Delver 2-0
Game one he got an early Delver and followed it up with Truename to hold off my Knight. But then I made a Marit Lage and blocked his Delver and killed him on the crack back. Game two he tried to lean on Leovolds but just died to Deathrites and Scryb Rangers instead.
Round Eight: Grixis Delver 1-2
An easy win game one was followed by Grim Lavamancer wrecking me both games two and three. Just couldn't draw my removal at the right time and the tempo loss made it impossible to beat his follow up Truename on time.
Round Nine: RUG Delver 1-2
Close across all three games. The first game became a race where a timely blocker on his end won it for him while the third game was me holding Decay as I died to a Hooting Mandrils.
I make it to day two, but my 6-1 start turning to 6-3 was definitely humbling. Sadly, the bad beats continued.
Round Ten: UW Standstill 1-1-1
This was an epic case is mis-assigning roles. Game one starts with him just laying islands and plains, convincing me he's miracles. He counters my first few spells until I land a Stoneforge Mystic for Sword of Fire and Ice, he then drops a Truename Nemesis. Thinking he is UW Stoneblade I empty my hand of threats and begin racing him. A Supreme Verdict followed by Jace + Standstill ends it. Game two was grindy since it was just our Stoneforge mystics fighting under a standstill until my Batterskull trumped his. With 6 minutes left in the round we both kept sketchy hands and tried to race but were unable to close.
Round Eleven: BUG Delver
I keep a nice opening hand, but am going second. He plays a Polluted and Passes. I play a land and pass as my one drop is plow. He plays a land and casts hymn to tourach hitting both my lands. I don't draw another land the rest of the game. Game three he casts hymn on turn two again--but misses my lands. I then get mana out and cast spells and he can't do anything about it. Game three was a mirror of game two. He played a land, I played a Deathrite which he Fatal pushed at end of turn, he then hymn both lands out of my hand and I never draw another land.
I drop at this point ending my run at 6-4-1 and proceed to go to side events.
Overview:
The event was fun but deflating. Losing to RUG and Grixis is uncommon in my experience but losing them rounds 8 and 9 really hampered my chances. Round 11 was bad beats so I can't get mad--I had a few lucky beats too so it evens out. But the matches to both RUG and Grixis were actual back and forths so I need to rethink those matchups again.
The persecutions were fine but often not brought in. I only faced one combo deck but elves is fairly rough. Although it's the first time I've lost to elves in a long while--I can't blame Zealous persecutions because I didn't draw it--although in that specific game it would have been useless. Batterskull underperformed all week. Only ever being useful in the matches I ended up losing/drawing anyway. With the decline in Shardless I'll need to start really thinking about whether it's worth it to keep running the skull.
Marit Lage was a beating, winning me multiple matches I shouldn't have won and allowing me to beat fast double Truename draws. Maze of Ith was fairly useful as well, but my mana felt overly tight all week. Despite running 3 basics it still felt impossible to safely get to 4 mana with as many stifles and wastelands continually being thrown at each other. Adjustments will have to be made.
Now I'm off to play modern today--wish me luck!
THanks for the report and your candid thoughts regarding some of the cards we've discussed on this thread earlier. The point about stable mana hits home: being able to ramp asap with this deck is so important. That's why I believe that sylvan Library is a good card to include, it helps give filtering to our draw step.
This so much. Burn isn't a good mu and the hate that's good against it is, for the most part, useless vs most of the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascalyote
I had thought of trying IoK previously but was unsure because Duress is usually better in legacy. Did you end up boarding them in against more than just burn/Combo?
I will occasionally run a singleton Blessed Alliance. Great vs Burn, but also decent against Delver, TNN decks, and even has applications vs Lands (kills pesky Marit Lage), Reanimator, and Sneak and Show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
I like duress more against combo for the most part as it can hit Tendrils//Past and Flames and maybe you can exile/surgical it to get a cheese win and against SnT it hits Sneak attack. But I cut them for IoKs because they're (obviously) a lot stronger vs creature based combo, they hit more out of burn (specifically Eidolon, but yes it misses Fireblast), and yes you get to bring them in against non-combo matchups sometimes (if you have room) like DnT, blade/TNN, Delver or Leovold pile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
Also I don't do this often but more recently I've tried boarding out my Mothers in both the mirror and against DnT to play more of a control deck with 5 plow effects, 7 discard, Persecution, Revokers, etc. and it's worked out - not sure if it's right because cutting mother of runes sounds bad on paper