[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Navsi

This is also true.

I'm of the opinion that a less worrying early game is more important than a more efficient lategame, particularly since we are the 'control' deck and D&T is the 'beatdown' in the matchup and we can probably expect to win if the game goes late.

IMO if you're in a situation where Path > Swords, the game has gone late enough that you should win anyway.

Also, hitting your own creature with Swords for lifegain is occasionally relevant against combo decks and/or Burn. :cool:

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Most legacy decks play 2 or less basics which means when we do the thing our deck does, sac vet, they have no basics left. Point Path.

Rhino trigger helixes the opponent and is our primary threat in W/x Nic fit. Gaining our opp life is the opposite of winning. Point Path.

Against delver decks and greedy manabases, path is beyond free. Point Path.

On the off chance we have to, we can path a creature to get a basic since that is more relevant than facing burn and having to swords it. Point Path.

I can understand the lower to the ground SFM build running swords instead.

Having a mindset like: if path is better than swords, we are already winning is incorrect. Of the few decks that can benefit off of us pathing over swords, even less can do anything with the mana that isn't dumpster'd by our EDH cards.

We are a path deck. Make our opponents pay the cost of multiple fetches with infinite rhino triggers, if they cant beat the bodies, they get trampled.
*let the bodies hit the floor*

I only very rarely board out Vet, actually -- Miracles is the only one off the top of my head where it's common practice to board them out. There's probably a couple more matchups where they get boarded or shaved, but I can't think of them at the moment. I leave them in vs DnT, not sure what other matchups are questionable.

I board them out a bunch as they're fairly dead topdecks in long grinders, which is what the vaaaaast majority of postboard games turn into as we're both just overloading on removal and interaction. Same principle behind boarding out discard spells vs. the ultra grind. I do leave them in versus some matchups like Eldrazi, but in general, they're the first cards I look to for cuts postboard.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I only very rarely board out Vet, actually -- Miracles is the only one off the top of my head where it's common practice to board them out. There's probably a couple more matchups where they get boarded or shaved, but I can't think of them at the moment. I leave them in vs DnT, not sure what other matchups are questionable.

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High Tide :laugh:

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But I do agree, I hardly ever board out Vets. Miracles plus any other primarily controlling blue deck that has access to a lot of basics, where Carpets can come in to replace them. Played against a very controlling Stoneblade list last night that had Restoration Angel, Venser, Cliques, Notion Thief...did not want to accelerate them at all.

In the super grindy matchups that will inevitably go long, why are you guys keeping Veterans in? We play 21-23 lands, some number of DRS, 4 GSZ grab Dryad; we're going to hit our land drops and cast our bombs just fine. The opponent is overloading on interaction and removal for our big, dumb stuff... and we are too (boarding in Decays, Pulse, K Grip, Rec Sage, etc). Veteran is like the deadest of dead topdecks and doesn't do much on turn 11 when your opponent is ripping removal and gas and we're ripping... Veteran? Therapy? These cards are terrible postboard (Therapy defensible to a degree I suppose).

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

In the super grindy matchups that will inevitably go long, why are you guys keeping Veterans in? We play 21-23 lands, some number of DRS, 4 GSZ grab Dryad; we're going to hit our land drops and cast our bombs just fine. The opponent is overloading on interaction and removal for our big, dumb stuff... and we are too (boarding in Decays, Pulse, K Grip, Rec Sage, etc). Veteran is like the deadest of dead topdecks and doesn't do much on turn 11 when your opponent is ripping removal and gas and we're ripping... Veteran? Therapy? These cards are terrible postboard (Therapy defensible to a degree I suppose).

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See, I board out Therapy in those situations (Stoneblade being an exception because Therapy is great there while Vet is bad). Vet is still card advantage for us, and it's still tempo in the early to midgame. Even turn 6+ there's likely to still be basics in our deck that we can thin out. Plus, if you do happen to get one to go off early, it can break open the game into a degenerate board state before the opponent is set up and ready to deal with it. Consider Jund: they're likely to have 2 basics (1 trigger worth), and they're pretty grindy. Would you rather have Vet or Therapy in postboard? It's very unlikely you board out 8 cards vs Jund (or have 8 to bring in, for that matter). I'd rather have the extra ramp and card advantage than a literal do-nothing -- any cards Jund has in hand midgame will come from Bobs, or Sylvans and will get used immediately or pitched to Liliana.

Shardless is much the same. They have Visions, yes, but usually when their Visions goes off they just play everything they draw anyway. Vet, on the other hand, is a great way for us to keep up in virtual cards and allow us to slam progressively more powerful haymakers that they MUST answer. Sure, they likely can answer the first couple -- but if we don't accelerate into threats vs Shardless, they'll assemble Force+blue+Pulse+Decay in hand with Jace x Liliana in play and we won't be able to do anything.

I don't disagree with the thought process (board out lategame do-nothings in favor of gas), but I think that you're targeting the wrong lategame do-nothing. Therapy is worse vs basically every non-stoneforge grind deck than Vet is, by a lot.

Maybe I'm leaning towards Swords over Path because I'm also leaning away from Siege Rhino. Both those cards seem to me like we're trying to be the beatdown more and out tempo our opponent / set up a fast clock, which just isn't where I think this deck wants to be at all.

Thank you sirs for this discussion. I rarely board out Therapies but probably need to start doing so against these grindier decks. Any others that warrant taking out some number of Therapies?

In the sneak list, any explosive start does have the ability to quickly finish a game. That plus the lack of Arbor is reason to keep some number of Vets in even in grindy matchups. Honestly I don't have that much to bring in against stuff like Shardless. (Painful Truths, From the Slaughter?, Rec Sage?, Pyroclasm?, Carpets?)

@Aresnal, Liliana of the Veil. If they play LotV, then I keep them in to troll her hard. For example, against shardless and Jund I side out 4 therapies but keep 4 vets in.

Also some people don't like attacking into Vet, so he can act like a mini moat against creature decks while you hit your land drops.

I also play equipment though, so my vets can become threats.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Most legacy decks play 2 or less basics which means when we do the thing our deck does, sac vet, they have no basics left. Point Path.

Rhino trigger helixes the opponent and is our primary threat in W/x Nic fit. Gaining our opp life is the opposite of winning. Point Path.

Against delver decks and greedy manabases, path is beyond free. Point Path.

On the off chance we have to, we can path a creature to get a basic since that is more relevant than facing burn and having to swords it. Point Path.

I can understand the lower to the ground SFM build running swords instead.

Having a mindset like: if path is better than swords, we are already winning is incorrect. Of the few decks that can benefit off of us pathing over swords, even less can do anything with the mana that isn't dumpster'd by our EDH cards.

We are a path deck. Make our opponents pay the cost of multiple fetches with infinite rhino triggers, if they cant beat the bodies, they get trampled.
*let the bodies hit the floor*

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I agree, but Swords has merit at 2 Rhinos or less, and in metagames where you feel your games are always close/lots of Burn where you might need that tiny, tiny bit of life gain. However, having played the deck since Rhino came out and a bit before, I really, really like Path.

Also, I'm coming to Europe on Saturday.

Brussels for Sunday, Prague Sunday evening the 18th, Vienna 22nd to 26th, and Munich 26th to 30th.

I usually rarely board Veteran out:

- Miracle (at least 3)
- Storm (at least 2)
- S&T (at least 3)
- High Tide (here 4)

I'll keep them in against board position battles:
- Jund
- Shardless
- D&T
- Deathblade/Stoneblade


The only awkward MU is Burn where you can be tempted to cut them out BUT I have won many more games because of Veteran's triggers than lost because I have given them mountains to be sac'ed to Fireblast...
Just remember that ramping to be able to play your Rhino/Thragtusk in this MU is key. Not to mention that veteran feeds the ooze and blocks Goblin Guide/Monastery.

Also the neat trix against burn is to always go after the instant burn spells with your discard spells:
1) Fireblast
2) Lightning Bolt

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I don't disagree with the thought process (board out lategame do-nothings in favor of gas), but I think that you're targeting the wrong lategame do-nothing. Therapy is worse vs basically every non-stoneforge grind deck than Vet is, by a lot.

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I disagree. Hand checking the opponent to ensure your super bomb lives through their M Pulse that they've been clutching the last 3 turns is pretty relevant. Again, I'm banking on my opponent overloading on interaction and removal postboard. They're not just blindly jamming everything in their hand so we can just Deed them out of the game. They very likely will have relevant cards in hand on turn 8, some of which can just wreck us.

I do shave Therapy as well, but that's only after I've cut all of my Vets. Like, versus Shardless (I don't really factor Jund into meta consideration anymore, tbh), I'd consider boarding in 2 Decay, 1 M Pulse, 1 Rec Sage, 2 Choke, 2 Nihil Spellbomb. That's 8 cards. Even if I didn't consider the two weakest cards to board in (Spellbomb), that's still 6 cards. I'm cutting 4 Vets, 1 Teeg, 1 Therapy in that situation.

Against other midrange, I might be tempted to cut Therapy since they are boarding out Force. I think especially if you're against Shardless, you're on the slam Sigarda and walkers plan, Deed the board when you can. Not saying boarding out Therapy is correct, it's just what I do. I like Vet so I can jump ahead of Shardless and get going with my tanks before they can stabilize, or to Deed for more, sooner.

How are you guys reliably triggering Vet when you're boarding out your Therapy? I know we have P Tower, and I guess incidental Deed activation, but 4 Vet/0 Therapy postboard doesn't seem like you're going to be doing much early game accelerating?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

How are you guys reliably triggering Vet when you're boarding out your Therapy? I know we have P Tower, and I guess incidental Deed activation, but 4 Vet/0 Therapy postboard doesn't seem like you're going to be doing much early game accelerating?

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Tell me which one of your opponent's creatures for Shardless can attack through a veteran ?

None. But they get their basics to use on their turn first? And their attacking dude still lives? Vet much worse when opponent decides when it triggers instead of you deciding. Garruk Relentless not uncommon Shardless sb card. By all means, allow them to accel into their dumb walker before us.

Let me rephrase, outside of hoping opponent attacks into your Vet and they have stone cold nothing to do with that extra mana on same turn, how are YOU reliably triggering Vet. You, not the opponent.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

None. But they get their basics to use on their turn first? And their attacking dude still lives? Vet much worse when opponent decides when it triggers instead of you deciding. Garruk Relentless not uncommon Shardless sb card. By all means, allow them to accel into their dumb walker before us.

Let me rephrase, outside of hoping opponent attacks into your Vet and they have stone cold nothing to do with that extra mana on same turn, how are YOU reliably triggering Vet. You, not the opponent.

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You don't trigger your vet. Period.
There is "no rush" for that. I usually take the control seat not the aggro one.

Jace's power is nowhere near Jace in Miracle.
Jace + Liliana is problematic but using smartly your decays in this MU is part of the deal.
Deed should cover the aggro side of shardless and decay should go after Lilis & what else.

The rest is a grind fest. The more PW/Huge Bombs/Recurring tools you pack the better:
Nissa is a bitch
Grave Titan is a monster
Sigarda is a slug
Garruk is also very powerful
Huntmaster is pretty decent

etc...

Shardless is just the best "Goyf" deck outta here.

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

EDIT: Like, I'm truly trying to understand why we need Veteran postboard, assuming that our opponent is a grindy deck that you're anticipating lots of interaction, removal and over the top stuff coming in. If we're not popping it early and on our command (everyone says they cut Therapy postboard), we don't get full value from the "ramp" aspect of it as we're not casting a 5 drop on t3. If we're relying solely on popping it later game, when we've already laid our natural land drops, do we really "need" him? Like, I've laid 5 lands, but I guess I need 7?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

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I think what people are saying is this:

1) You may or may not take out all of your therapies, so there's still a chance to crack your own explorer early and break open the game with a degenerate threat.

2) In my experience, Shardless beats us in the early-mid game with Goyf beats when we haven't had enough Deeds and other removal to keep pace. VE in play means that they will either attack into it and ramp you forward into a big Deed or threat or they won't attack and you'll take over the late game. Without VE you remove a difficult choice for your opponent.

3) It's as much about the card advantage and improving your card quality as it is about acceleration. If you're cracking VE mid-late game, that's two more lands you won't draw or have to top away. Nic Fit's biggest late game strength (other than getting to hard-cast Titans) is our ability to get all the lands out of our deck - by the late game we're drawing nothing but gas.

Every list is different, but postboard I have access to 4 Decay, 4 Swords/Path, 1 M Pulse as spot removal for Shardless/Goyf. I don't share the same fear of turn 2 Goyf as others maybe? I don't need a pseudo-wall?

EDIT: Again, giving your opponent the choice is my very point. It isn't *that* difficult for them when they get to decide when Vet triggers. They glance at their hand and they're holding Jace/Garruk/Liliana (un-Deedable), they just swing with their dude. Now you either block and let them cast their dumb thing or eat the damage and Vet did literally nothing.