Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
4 Path to Exile
1 Council's Judgment
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
2 Containment Priest
1 Relic Warder
1 Palace Jailer
1 Pia/Kiran
W/ the above board I would bring in:
Macabre
4 Path
1 Relic Warder
1 Palace Jailer
take out
4 STP
1 SotL
1 Ethersworn
1 Crusader
If you have more stuff like RiP, more Maguses, then just take out more fair creatures that don't Blood Moon them + Chalice on 2 them or find ways to protect your Blood Moon + Chalice on 2. Even Thalia isn't really that important. Having some outs to a fast 20/20 is a good plan since you're winning the long game, and Path is way better than STP since you don't give them 20 life / they generally fetch their forest early anyway. (Also they tend to board in Tireless Tracker now as an alt win con.)
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
So if anything I think the argument should be shifted from 'Why play RW?' to 'Why should people play Mono-W?' There are reasons to, for sure, in certain metas it's a better deck. Just not most of the time. There are similarly going to be metas where playing 4 Swords to Plowshares in your deck is incorrect, or where Thalia does very little, but we accept that on the whole they are pretty powerful effects against a broad range of decks. Magus is similar.
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Stifle seeing an uptick in Grixis Delver is certainly a non-zero factor.
Here's why I still will keep my cards for mono white together: mono white taxes has a very consistent manabase that is highly resilient to wasteland, stifle and blood moon. You have good matchups against the most popular decks in the format, and with the recent loss of Miracles you can devote more cards to your bad matchups. Having extra slots to run generic beaters helps you close out games against combo decks before they can draw out of your lock.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Sure yeah, don't go selling all your basic Plains.
There are certainly reasons and situations where WR is less powerful, Stifle and Wasteland are generally not the reasons. Price of Progress decks, sure. Fast Blood Moon - sure, that can beat you, or at least cut you off WW. Delver of Secrets when you play fewer flyers - yep, sometimes that matters.
Stifle when you only play 5 fetchlands and have better Stifle targets anyway - no, that very rarely actually matters. Wasteland when you play nearly as many sources of basics - no, that very rarely actually matters.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
talpa
Are these lists in this thread and I am missing them, or can you please post them?
I was referring to this:
https://twitter.com/therealenevolds/...67637233881089
It was a month ago or so I think...
If you look around page 387 you can find the tweet and a discussion in which these experimental builds of his were discussed. He was basically using Ancient Tomb to power a T2 Thalia 2.0, T3 Jailer and such.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
whats up guys. brand new member, old time stalker.
i just want to simply ask if Death and taxes will still be tier 1 or will it fall down to tier 2. the meta is a little shaky right now and everyone is running around not knowing is is quite the 'meta'. rw taxes is surely the talk on the block eight now but does magus really do that much more other than the impact it has in the elves match up.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hi,
Do you guys think Paladin en-Vec is playable at the moment?
Cheers
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I think Fiendslayer Paladin is a better card. Even though it doesn't have true protection, lifelink is very good vs all the Bolt decks you'd bring it in against.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
D&T will very likely remain a tier one deck. It will take a little bit of time to figure out what the build needs to look like in the new metagame though. There will likely be some short-term hiccups as we figure that out, and we might not have quite the same degree of good matchups as before.
I don't think we need to hedge strongly enough against Grixis Delver at the moment that we need either of the Paladins.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@iatee you´re correct Fiendslayer is the better card.
I will playtest Bahras CotV List tomorrow. Can give you a short feedback of the performance tomorrow.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
What does RW do to true-name nemesis? Results from Frankfurt show the format to be rather swamped with them and red offers nothing to address the asocial fish other than hoping magus can shut them off double blue (which is not so straightforward as these decks either run red removal or a shitload of mana dorks). The other thing is Manic Vandal, but I haven't seen that guy anymore for some time. The usual (sword of fire and ice, racing in the air or hoping to land a council's judgment) don't seem enough when most decks are running multiples, often even 4 in the aggressive blade lists. The answers seem particularly insufficient in the grixis match-up.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Red does not offer much vs TNN in particular. Black is the only color that really offers a variety of non-CJ ways to deal with TNN.
In theory you could play some Skullcrack type effect and try to kill a TNN on blocking duty, but I don't think there exist any that are really playable.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Everything Monowhite does vs a TNN is what RW does as well. We just Revoker whichever equipment they have in play, then try and threaten a scary crackback using Batterskull as our leading unit.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gh0st_b1rd
Everything Monowhite does vs a TNN is what RW does as well. We just Revoker whichever equipment they have in play, then try and threaten a scary crackback using Batterskull as our leading unit.
Yes, but against an aggressive deck with multiple true-names, the traditional plans are unreliable and/or insufficient. Last year there was a surge of bant aggro decks in particular in our meta, which ultimately faltered because the deck had a terrible game against miracles. D&T was a bye for that deck. As in, none of the players ever lost even a game to mono white D&T in over 20 tournament matches. I played a black splash for pontiff and the match-up was still in their favor, although now they had to work for it.
With miracles gone, this deck is tier 1 again and both mono white and I would assume RW seem to have almost no chance against it. That's why I ask if there isn't a need to put in extra hate for true-name if you're not splashing black.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Good stuff, I say.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mad Mat
Yes, but against an aggressive deck with multiple true-names, the traditional plans are unreliable and/or insufficient. Last year there was a surge of bant aggro decks in particular in our meta, which ultimately faltered because the deck had a terrible game against miracles. D&T was a bye for that deck. As in, none of the players ever lost even a game to mono white D&T in over 20 tournament matches. I played a black splash for pontiff and the match-up was still in their favor, although now they had to work for it.
With miracles gone, this deck is tier 1 again and both mono white and I would assume RW seem to have almost no chance against it. That's why I ask if there isn't a need to put in extra hate for true-name if you're not splashing black.
Do you mean Reid Duke's "Dark Bant" list with 8 mana dorks, 1 Goyf, 4 TNN and 2 Leo? If so, I think you are over-stating the decks domination. I beat it with mono-white multiple times over the last 3 months with mono-white. It's weak to early blood moons vs. RW unless they are aware of it and grab basics early. Also, it's an easy race if you can get SOFI on a mirran crusader. Flickerwisp also races. Just name DRS with Revoker and get evasive pressure down. You can often get there. Also, that decks combo matchup is...bad. I'm not too concerned. Just don't let them draw a billion cards, mind your targeted activations. Don't kill the mana dorks until you have an answer for the leovold.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Do you mean Reid Duke's "Dark Bant" list with 8 mana dorks, 1 Goyf, 4 TNN and 2 Leo? If so, I think you are over-stating the decks domination. I beat it with mono-white multiple times over the last 3 months with mono-white. It's weak to early blood moons vs. RW unless they are aware of it and grab basics early. Also, it's an easy race if you can get SOFI on a mirran crusader. Flickerwisp also races. Just name DRS with Revoker and get evasive pressure down. You can often get there. Also, that decks combo matchup is...bad. I'm not too concerned. Just don't let them draw a billion cards, mind your targeted activations. Don't kill the mana dorks until you have an answer for the leovold.
No, these lists are actual stoneblade decks with mystic and jitte. Because of the mana dorks and the cantrips they can get an equipped true-name out quite consistently and fast. The deck's combo match-up is not so bad because they have access to white for hatebears, in addition to counters, DRS and discard. Magus might make a difference, but I expect him often to be too slow to make the difference (just as sofi or a race with our own flyers).
This is an example list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15001&d=290729&f=LE
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Options; from best to worst:
* Flying. The TNN decks normally don't have a lot of flyers. Avenger is what D&T spammed back when TNN first came out and it did fine IIRC
* Manriki-Gusari was also a common way to kill op's equips. Cheap equip cost also make it quite handy.
* Pyroblast/REB. These are reasonable sideboard anyway. Add that they give game for T1 combo turns, and are good against 60% of the field or more, and are removal for Delver and other such nonsense; seems fine.
* If you're desperate, Flanking > TNN. Both W and R have a plethora of 2-drop flankers. The better ones seem to be:
Outrider en-Kor
Zhalfirin Crusader
Riftmarked Knight
Knight of the Holy Nimbus
Mtenda Herder
Depending if you want them low to the ground. Herder seems like a pretty good 1-drop as it attacks through DRS, Thalia, TNN, Bob, SFM, etc, without dying; all even if they had a Mother of Runes on the table.
* Reconnaissance to give yourself the ability to swing with everything every turn while not losing anyone to blockers. TNN can't block everyone. Psuedo-vigilance is also a plus
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Yeah, Magus sometimes just punishes their clunky draws and 4c manabase. It's really hard to beat t2 SfM t3 TNN, but they don't always have it. Those decks tend to run fewer cantrips than most legacy blue decks (that list is only running 4 Brainstorm) so they don't always do their thing as consistently as other blue decks. You can beat an inconsistent deck with a 4c manabase. Sometimes it beats itself.
I'm way more concerned about facing a UW Stoneblade deck, since it's going to do the same thing more consistently and doesn't give you much room to manascrew it.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mad Mat
No, these lists are actual stoneblade decks with mystic and jitte. Because of the mana dorks and the cantrips they can get an equipped true-name out quite consistently and fast. The deck's combo match-up is not so bad because they have access to white for hatebears, in addition to counters, DRS and discard. Magus might make a difference, but I expect him often to be too slow to make the difference (just as sofi or a race with our own flyers).
This is an example list:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15001&d=290729&f=LE
Right, that's close to his list. Reid had went past dark bant into 4c with sfm if you watch his youtube stuff. This isn't his, but it's close and again, has almost no game VS. combo, so I doubt there's much to worry about after RD 2 if you can avoid it early, there's a good chance it doesn't stay in the winning brackets.
