Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Is it even Miracles anymore at that point? It seems more like UWr Mentor Control with Terminus as the best sweeper in the format.

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pure control doesn't pay anymore in modern meta. you have to put a clock on the opponent WHILE you control the board, else you just survive until your death.

Blue creatures are not good at that because of Pyroblast and Wasteland. Stoneforge and Mentors do. He was playing them both. He won because of that.
Sulfur Elemental could have been fine either.

3cc cards are always sweet in a metagame infested with Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by Poron

exactly. With Mentors you tap a lot your mana. Daze is very good there. Also, Wasteland is a wise choice for the other Miracle deck. It gets Karakas and slows Grixis so much in conjuction to StP/Terminus on DRS

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it gets boseiju.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

it gets boseiju.

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Also, but that matchup is almost an auto win IF you have both Containment Priest and Ethersworn Canonist or cc3 on top..

anyway yes, that's another major target.

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Originally Posted by Poron

Also, but that matchup is almost an auto win IF you have both Containment Priest and Ethersworn Canonist or cc3 on top..

anyway yes, that's another major target.

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Wait, how is that true?

They cast Emrakul off Omniscience. Not SnT.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Wait, how is that true?

They cast Emrakul off Omniscience. Not SnT.

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SnT
RESP: Containment Priest (or Karakas into play)
SnT resolves. he can only play Omniscience, you drop Canonist.
Nothing can be played anymore but artifacts

In your turn you Tear/REB his Omniscience. And counter with Counterbalance in case..

this is the perfect situation, which doesn't occur often but you just hold 1 of your three Canonist in hand/topdeck all time and you win against Omniscience.

2 Karakas
3 Canonist
2 Priest
4 Counterbalance

in my 75

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Originally Posted by Poron

SnT
RESP: Containment Priest (or Karakas into play)
SnT resolves. he can only play Omniscience, you drop Canonist.
Nothing can be played anymore but artifacts5

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With the Containment Priest line, doesn't your Containment Priest exile your own Canonist off SnT? He can then drop Omniscience and proceed?

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

What's the Wear//Tear for? What do they bring in? Needle/Null Rod? Library?

Canonist is definitely awkward in a Snap list, but I feel preventing them from being able to pump before damage is a better trade off. And if you're worried that it turns their Vines into hard counters, don't use Swords until they make the first move. I also feel that Snap is better off as a flash blocker because it'll force them to waste a pump spell or fear losing their creature to an ambush viper.

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Originally Posted by Timbeef

With the Containment Priest line, doesn't your Containment Priest exile your own Canonist off SnT? He can then drop Omniscience and proceed?

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Yes, your Canonist would be gone thanks to Priest This line is no good.

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Originally Posted by Poron

SnT
RESP: Containment Priest (or Karakas into play)
SnT resolves. he can only play Omniscience, you drop Canonist.
Nothing can be played anymore but artifacts

In your turn you Tear/REB his Omniscience. And counter with Counterbalance in case..

this is the perfect situation, which doesn't occur often but you just hold 1 of your three Canonist in hand/topdeck all time and you win against Omniscience.

2 Karakas
3 Canonist
2 Priest
4 Counterbalance

in my 75

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Wow. Simply wow.

Also, Priest is not a card you bring in against Omnitell. They will almost NEVER Show in an Emrakul. In the off-chance that they have to, they will never, and I mean NEVER, do so against a deck holding up :1::w:. And if they're a bad enough player to take this line of play, they can choose not to Show in anything at all once Priest resolves.

you're right, I'm sorry.

Karakas plan then or Rule of Law instead of Canonist..

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Originally Posted by Poron

you're right, I'm sorry.

Karakas plan then or Rule of Law instead of Canonist..

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Canonist is just better because you can turn 2 it against Storm and it's almost always a blowout.

Just don't bring in Priest in Omnitell because it's not a card you want in the matchup.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Wow. Simply wow.

Also, Priest is not a card you bring in against Omnitell. They will almost NEVER Show in an Emrakul. In the off-chance that they have to, they will never, and I mean NEVER, do so against a deck holding up :1::w:. And if they're a bad enough player to take this line of play, they can choose not to Show in anything at all once Priest resolves.

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And they have wasted 1 of their obly 4 cards we fear while we have just played a 2/2 flash keeping all the hand up.

Anyway, please, let's get back to the point: Wasteland is good here as well.

It kills opponent's scarce, in current meta, lands
mirror's Karakas
Omnitell Boseiju

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Originally Posted by Poron

Anyway, please, let's get back to the point: Wasteland is good here as well.

It kills opponent's scarce, in current meta, lands
mirror's Karakas
Omnitell Boseiju

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Wasteland is definitely good against Omnitell's Boseiju and decks that are *generally* unfavorable MU's (43 Lands.dec, MUD, 12-Post). If your meta is filled with those, you should definitely consider playing that GP Kyoto list. But for an unknown meta, Wasteland isn't really a card you want to have. Though I can see it becoming more and more popular because of decks starting to play more Cavern of Souls.

We'll have to see where the meta goes from here.

Lands is not an unfavorable matchup (especially G1), and Wasteland is a liability against them if you are skimping on basics to fit Wastelands in.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Wasteland is definitely good against Omnitell's Boseiju and decks that are *generally* unfavorable MU's (43 Lands.dec, MUD, 12-Post).
We'll have to see where the meta goes from here.

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Lands is not unfavorable MU. I haven't lost to Lands in like... a year now.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Lands is not unfavorable MU. I haven't lost to Lands in like... a year now.

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Hmm. The guy in my playgroup that plays it is using some BUG Lands/Smokestack brew and I have some difficulty playing against.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Hmm. The guy in my playgroup that plays it is using some BUG Lands/Smokestack brew and I have some difficulty playing against.

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Seriously, how is this relevant to anyone else but you??? The point of this forum is to discuss a deck in the context of what is broadly the legacy metagame. Yes, there might be local differences and that's fine, but you can't just say 'Lands is a bad M/U' and then say 'oh, but when I say lands, I don't mean what everyone else thinks, I mean this other thing that nobody can relate to.' This is totally useless information.

Wasteland seems like a really horrible way to answer a problem that is not even that big. Yes, Boseiju turns off our counterspells - then we play Clique, we play hatebears, we play redblasts to counter the first spell after SnT. Wasteland is just narrow and counterproductive to our plan, why would we do that?

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Originally Posted by FortyThree

Thanks for the report, mort. You certainly got a lot of games in!

I'm interested in hearing a bit more about your experiences with the Mentor/Daze deck. I've been playing 2 mentors in my ponder-miracles board and I love every time I get to resolve one, so I'm naturally curious about this 4-mentor version. Some questions:

1. Do you find that the inclusion of Daze means you're more often playing the mentor on 3 or 4 lands? Does having 4 of them mean that you'll happily run it out early, or do you still play towards establishing full control before deploying one?

2. How does such a creature-heavy plan work together with Terminus? Did you ever find yourself in awkward situations where you had to terminus away 2+ of your own creatures?

3. Related to the above 2, and assuming that playing 4 mentors and daze does indeed make the deck much more proactive, would it make sense in your opinion to at least consider replacing terminuses with lightning bolts? (At this point, I'm perfectly aware that it wouldn't be a miracles deck anymore, but I think it hardly IS a miracles deck as it is now. Top and CB should still be worth running in my view)

Thanks!

43

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So I only played 6 matches with the Mentor list, will probably get more when I decide that I won't be greedy and buy Daze on MTGO. With that being said:

1. Depends fully on the MU, I try to at least make one token with Mentor while playing him as safe as possible. Cavern helps a great deal obv, but generally four mana is where I want to be before I cast Mentor. In the tournament I mostly sided out Daze and FoW. Being that I was on the draw very often (Daze not as good) and playing against Tempodecks where I didn't want to trade 2-1 (FoW out). The thing is that Mentor really can get out of hand pretty fast, so it's a very good way of board control as long as you don't play him too greedy.

2. Never had a situation where I wanted to Terminus away my stuff. Don't think it will occur that often with eight cantrips and four Tops as the card selection is very high.

3. Don't like the Bolt plan. You can still play this deck like a regular Miracles which feels great, lean back and wait for you opponent to act, or go on the offensive and play a more tempo oriented plan. Switching the strategies depending on how your opponent acts makes this deck stronger, as he doesn't know how he can counteract your gameplan. So I wouldn't actually scrap the control route that's available. This might obv change when people are getting used to the deck.



For all the Omnitell discussion, the unbeatable line is:
Have Karakas, Canonist and REB / Pyroblast in hand. Drop Canonist into SNT, then REB Omniscience or play Karakas in your next turn if he put in Emrakul. Of note here is that playing the removal spell for Omniscience must happen in their turn, as they can just counter your spell and you can't back because of Canonist in your turn.
Also, there seems to be some slight misconception regarding counterspells in this MU. As I've seen, the Omnitell player will wait a few more turns if he can then play SnT off Boseiju, so CB doesn't work that well in that regard. The best hate is imho to get proactive, meaning to play Canonist / Clique or even Meddling Mage off a Cavern and start pressuring him. If you give them the time to assemble their stuff, bad things will happen. In my experience, winning the counterwar against their business spells with an Omniscience on the field is close to impossible.

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Originally Posted by mort-

For all the Omnitell discussion, the unbeatable line is:
Have Karakas, Canonist and REB / Pyroblast in hand. Drop Canonist into SNT, then REB Omniscience or play Karakas in your next turn if he put in Emrakul. Of note here is that playing the removal spell for Omniscience must happen in their turn, as they can just counter your spell and you can't back because of Canonist in your turn.
Also, there seems to be some slight misconception regarding counterspells in this MU. As I've seen, the Omnitell player will wait a few more turns if he can then play SnT off Boseiju, so CB doesn't work that well in that regard. The best hate is imho to get proactive, meaning to play Canonist / Clique or even Meddling Mage off a Cavern and start pressuring him. If you give them the time to assemble their stuff, bad things will happen. In my experience, winning the counterwar against their business spells with an Omniscience on the field is close to impossible.

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this: Karakas in the pitch and Canonist in hand

if you have CB with floating 3cc, you're pretty much to the goal.

Wasteland is another very good card to draw in that marchup

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Originally Posted by FortyThree

Seriously, how is this relevant to anyone else but you??? The point of this forum is to discuss a deck in the context of what is broadly the legacy metagame. Yes, there might be local differences and that's fine, but you can't just say 'Lands is a bad M/U' and then say 'oh, but when I say lands, I don't mean what everyone else thinks, I mean this other thing that nobody can relate to.' This is totally useless information.

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Well the taxing effects of Ports is something that our decks have trouble dealing with.

Hey guys, here's the list for not only Top 8, but Top 16.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2015-07-05

I really like Yohan Dodognon's version. It's wrong for me to make fun of European's names, but I cannot stop myself from chuckling. :smile:

Guys, don't worry about Mentor Miracles, I'm going to practice my Stoneblade deck, in case SDT got banned. Actually, in a SDT banned Legacy, Esper Mentor might just take off.