[Deck] The Rock

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

To do average cost, you can find out how many you have total (total spells), and see how many you have of each, and see what percentage.

Example, you have 3/15 spells that cost 2, 2/15 3-drops, and 10/15 1 drops, you need some percentages.

2 Drops: 20% of total (.20)
1 drops: 66% of toal (.66)
3 drops: 14% of total (.14)

(2x2) + (2x3) + (10x1)= some number

(some number)/15 = average CMC. You're basically adding up the total casting cost of every card, then dividing by the total number of cards to get the average. The percentages are there to show how top or bottom heavy your deck is. Also, I thought I needed them for something else, but apparently, I didn't.

In Rock, if your curve is ~2 (1.8-2.2) I tend to find 19 mana producers + utility lands enough. If you're curving closer to 3, 22 Mana producers are your safe bet. You also have to expect getting Wastelanded twice, conservatively.

-Matt

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Awesome, thanks man.

No worries.

You should be able to also do it like this: (%)(CMC) + (%)(CMC) + (%) (CMC).

As in the above example, (.22)(2) + (.14)(3) + (.66)(1)=1.48 is the AVG CMC.

Math to the rescue! :D

The first way is probably a bit faster, though.

-Matt

You guys might want to check out this website:
http://deckstats.net/

You can enter a decklist and it will give you the average cmc. It also gives you a comparison of how your mana requirements and your mana sources are divided. I find it a handy tool and use it quite often on new decklists.

Anyway, after playing TES the last couple of months, I decided it was time to pick up The Rock again. I made a list which isn't very innovative but it seems to do fairly well in my current meta:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Pernicious Deed


side
4 Engineered Plague
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds

The Needle and Crucible are in my side as an attempt to improve the Landstill match-up which is pretty rough. I must say that I've been liking both a lot even outside of the Landstill match-up. Crucible comes in handy against decks that try to screw with your mana development (like New Horizons); Pithing Needle obviously comes in against anything with Survival, Planeswalkers,... (the usual suspects) but I've also been boarding it against Merfolk and I like it a lot. I don't often tutor for it in that match-up but I'm never unhappy to draw it. Shutting down an early vial often allows me to keep up with them and cutting them off of Mutavault can punish creature light hands.

I'm pretty happy with the deck; there are 2 spots in the main and 4 in the side which I'm a bit in doubt about. In the main I'm not sure if I need 4 Pridemages as I already have 4 Vindicate. If I take out 2, the slots would be filled with either 2 Path to Exile or 2 Kitchen Finks.
In the side I'm not really sure about the 4 E-Plagues. I've always been a fan of them as getting down 2 often means GG against Merfolk and Goblins (especially combined with the amount of spot removal The Rock plays) and as a 4-off with E-tutor it's not very hard to get 2 on the board (and I've always felt OK devoting 4 slots to those 2 matchups as I have to play them quite often) but with this build the matchup already seems quite good and I've been wondering if I could put those slots to better use. Any suggestions would be more than welcome.
If I cut the Plagues completely, I'd probably play 2 PtE side and 1 Runed Halo (I would like an extra slot against combo and Halo can be randomly usefull against a lot of stuff like Progenitus for instance) and 1 free slot.

I play one O-Ring in the side (tutorable) to bring in against SnT/Emrakul. Unfortunately it's sorcery speed, so it doesn't work against Sneak Attack, Shelldock Isle, or Mosswort Bidge, but I guess that's what Pithing Needle's for, right? Also, you can bring O-Ring in against a lot of matchups, like Landstill, Stax, Enchantress, Zoo...

That list looks pretty solid. Personally for me, I'd cut 2 Pridemages and go with 2 Kitchen Finks, just for Blockers/Lifegain.

But if you used deckcheck, you wouldn't get to use fun Math, would you? :P

-Matt

Matt, will this be your deck of choice for the upcoming Duals tournament?

Is Kitchen Finks really that good? (vs. Pridemage)

You're right 2 pridemage is too much when you're running vindicates. 2 seems like a good number. I'll agree that finks fills this spot best, it is awesome against the aggro meta you seem to be playing in as it helps recoup the life loss from bob and thoughtseize while giving you a chump blocker and sometimes a guy that trades and comes back for more. You've got edicts for emrakul. If that's your problem, fit a karakas in the main, probably in place of a dual as it is tutorable via knight. It seems like you need more combo hate. Runed halo is your best option here since you're playing E tutor and don't have the sb room for leylines. I'm not a fan of the path to exile... ghastly demise has always been my favorite second to swords, i'd consider that at least.

Yo,

I'm gonna run a rock build at a local Legacy tournament this week. It's nothing big, just four rounds I think. Was hoping I could get some last minute feedback on my list before I take it to battle (wow, what a nerdy sentence). I've been tweaking it since my last post. No idea what the meta will be, I expect 20 random decks.


Lands: I backboned the land off black to make it easier to cast some of the BB options. So far, I've been pretty pleased with the consistency.

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Scrubland
3x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas


Creatures: I've been using Doran to speed up the clock. I read a few pages back that several people are anti-Doran. What are the reasons to be anti-Doran? I also selected my creatures that were enhanced by Doran (Nighthawk, Goyf, Descendent). The WW/BB costs on Nighthawk and Descendant haven't been a problem, with the 8 fetch and 4 Scrublands.

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Vampire Nighthawk (life gain, flier)
3x Doran
2x Descendant of Kiyomaro (goes well with Doran, the discard effects, and helps off-set bob in a 3cc heavy deck)


Other: It might be too removal heavy, but if Rock's an "answers to everything" deck I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing.

4x Swords to Plowshare
4x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach

3x Sensei's Diving Top


Sideboard: Easily where I need the most suggestion work! I was considering Krosan Grips, but I have a lot of removal in the deck already. Not sure the O-Rings are the best option. I also tried to set it up with a E. Tutor package, so I could run more options since I have no idea what the meta will be like.

2x Enlightened Tutor
3x Engineered Plague
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus (I hate you dredge/graveyard decks.)
1x Crucible of Worlds (mainly to protect against wasteland)
2x Oblivion Ring (yargh? Could be Chalice if I need more help against combo? or more discard?)
3x Diabolic Edict


Thanks again.

-Jimmy

Woah, I think that manabase needs some work. You're only playing 19 mana-producing lands in a deck that plays 17 three-drops (counting EE here). That's about how many lands Canadian Thresh plays, and they play a full set of Brainstorms, a full set of Ponders, Fire/Ice to cantrip into lands, and only two three-drops. A single Wasteland, Port, or Stifle could set you back drastically.

I think all the Doran-hate is due to Knight of the Reliquary, who I think most prefer over Doran. Doran has the problem of being legendary, and being fixed at 5/5. He might be better in this deck due to pumping Nighthawk, Goyf, and Descendant (as well as shrinking the occasional Vendilion Clique), but Knight helps you find those one-of Maze of Ith and Karakas that you're playing. If you're not going to play Knight, the first thing I would do is replace the Maze and Karakas with duals, fetches, or basics, since you have no way to search for them.

I think you're right in not playing Grip in the board, since you already have 8 Grip-esque effects mainboard. If you are going to play Edicts, then I don't think you need the O-Rings, since you already play Vindicate, Pulse, and EE, and the main reason to play O-Ring is to tutor up for Emrakul. Also, I've always been a big fan of Gaddock Teeg, boarding it in against a lot of decks:

Merfolk (Force of Will, Submerge)
New Horizons (Force of Will, Submerge, Engineered Explosives)
Landstill (Planeswalkers, Wrath, Humility, Moat, EE, Fact or Fiction, FoW)
Dredge (Dread Return, Breakthrough)
Stax (Smokestack, Armageddon, Moat, Humility, Elspeth, Chalice, EE)
Combo (Tendrils, Ad Nauseam, IGG)

and more. I don't know how you could make room for it though.

Also, I advise replacing one Relic with a Wheel of Sun and Moon, which is an absolute beating for Lands and Dredge.

could someone please tell me why oblivion ring works against emrakul, i thought he had protection from colored spells, or something

so i do not understand why O-ring should be of help against him, maybe i just cannot see it or i am too dumb but really i do not get it

I thought the same, but we're wrong. Shriekmaw works too. It's because their removal is an effect, not the spell itself. And Emrakul is only protected from spells.

Yea, the part of O-Ring that actually targets Emrakul is a triggered ability. When O-Ring targets Emrakul, it is already in play; it is no longer on the stack, and is no longer a spell.

I like the logic. I haven't had trouble with manascrew [yet]. But it makes sense to protect against stifle/wasteland, instead of keeping a couple 1 of's. Here's the updated land set up and sideboard:

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bayou
4x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest


SB:

3x E. Plague
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x E. Tutor
2x Pithing Needle
2x O. Ring
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon


I left the creatures and spells untouched. Lemme know if you have any other thoughts; I always appreciate the feedback.

Cheers,

-Jimmy

Oh, I forgot to mention this last time: Ethersworn Canonist would be a good addition to the sideboard, since it's a tutorable hoser for combo. It's also good against Enchantress and Vengevival. I would cut the Crucible for the Canonist, since most tempo-based decks that Waste your manabase won't let you get to three mana; if you do get to three mana and resolve Crucible around Daze, it's good against further Wastelands, but you don't play Horizon Canopy or Wasteland to fully abuse it like New Horizons does.

What about Chalice of the Void as a SB option? Any luck with that?

Chalice is a good sideboard card against combo and blue cantrip-reliant decks. If you want to put it in your board, just remember that it has to be good enough against whatever deck you bring it in against to justify shutting down Thoughtseize, Swords, and Top.

How do you all solve the enchantress match up?

-Jimmy

5 words: Back to Nature, Pernicious Deed. Grip if need be. Grave hate works too: hit their yard and they can't Replenish. Also, you have 4 Vindicate: kill things.

-Matt

Qasali Pridemage, Needle on Sterling Grove, Aura Shards if you play lots of creatures, Engineered Explosives, Gaddock Teeg to stop Sigil of the Empty Throne/Replenish/Moat, Ethersworn Canonist. Hand disruption is pretty good against them too, but be wary of them siding in Leyline of Sanctity (which also stops most grave hate).

The e-tutor/elspeth/mother of runes/knight of the reliquary/1 md maze/tarmo+noble hierarch lists should have a dueling grounds in the board.