This is why I think Kyller83 is probably right and including Masticore in the wishboard is a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by unicoerner
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This is why I think Kyller83 is probably right and including Masticore in the wishboard is a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by unicoerner
The reason the other ways to combo are more consistent is that they do not require anything specific on the board to go off, just one elf, any elf, usually needs to be on board. Relying on Priests and Archdruids is way too vulnerable to spot removal, I think you'll find that if you keep as few things on board before you combo as you can then you will combo much more consistantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
I fiind over commiting to the board to be a huge issue you have to learn to avoid. I also found that undercommiting can also lead to issues I find that often times if you don't put out some men and keep the pressure going you almost forget that you could have aggro killed them 3 turns ago.. and you still have no combo. I prefer to keep at least 2 elves in my hand or 1 elf with 1 active symbiote on table.
In my list if I have the 2 elves in hand or 1 elf + a symbiote I will be successful in comboing to full 95/100 times.
In regards to the above information regarding boarding strats for certain mu's I played an online daily even with the deck to a 3-1 finish, I played vs 3x countertop and 1x GB discard? I didn't really see enough of his cards to get a god idea of what he played. 2x games of early combos.
The countertops I played vs were u/w, u/w/g and u/w/g/r I lost to the one with firespouts.
I've never played a "traditional" elf combo list, i've just been working on my own rogue version, so I am confused by your logic here. Don't you need Heritage Druid and Nettle sentinel to combo off the normal way? Doesn't spot removal hurt here too? I understand that there are ways to search for them (like Summoning Pact), but GSZ can search for Priests or Archdruids (or Nettles or Hertitage Druids if you have a Glimpse in hand). It is because of spot removal that I like to have access to the Glimpse route and the Weird Harvest route. If they Swords to Plowshares my Priest, then I can play a Heritage Druid and Nettle Senitel and combo of in the normal wayQuote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
The reason spot removal doesn't hurt the plan that combos entirely from one drops is they are not on the board until you combo. They do not worry about summoning sickness, so you just drop them and combo, and you can almost always work around a single swords or bolt. They spread out the threats, where as with the priest/archdruid plan, they centralize your mana production more which makes it more vulnerable to targeted spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by TossUsToLions
You don't really need to have a nettle or a heritage to start comboing. It makes it easier, but I never require them to start. There are so many different combinations of cards that allow for a combo to start, that's what makes the one drop plan so great!
It's basically a swarm tactic that is applied to comboing instead of attacking. Spread out the mana production threats so they can't stop them as easily.
Alright, thanks, I think I understand it better now. I don't think that you can mix the two strategies as I was trying to do, because it restricts you on the number of one-drops that you can play. Also, going the Glimpse route, I now see how important Birchlore Rangers areQuote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
so i played in a legacy tourney yesterday for a library of alexandria(1st) and a jace(2nd). there were 22 people there. i made top 8 at 3-1-1. my list is posted a couple pages back.
round 1 v. g/w haterater
game 1: he has 3 well timed swords and a i never saw a glimpse. i eventually die to 12/12 knights
game 2: turn 3 emrakul
game 3: he has vial at 3, cannonist, revoker on symbiote, mindcensor, and a mystic that pulled a jitte which is in his hand. i wish for masticore, play it, kill cannonist, wish for corrupter knowing that i'll have to pass the turn and don't need him dropping a kotr for free because the judge just called time in the round. i kill revoker and play corrupter naming vial. i go to untap my nettle sentinels and he says i've already missed my trigger because i declared the corrupter's target. the judge agrees with him and i don't have enough to kill the mindcensor. he straps on a jitte and kills my heritage druids which causes us to draw. i was lawyered, but it was a good lesson.
round 2 v. bant counter top
game 1: i win the roll and have a turn 2 kill in my hand. he plays an island and says "go" :/ i bait him with glimpse to stick a archdruid turn 2 and a warcaller kicked twice on turn 3.
game 2: i board in the leylines and aggro him out over 5 turns.
round 3 v. food chain?!
i'll just say he won in 3. i still think the deck was awful, but he had a force every time he needed it and i punted game 2 after turn 2 kill game 1. i got rattled when he combo'd out emrakul and my math was wrong in his favor. i realized my mistake during game 3, but he rightly won that one.
i recoup and calm down. if i win out i'm in top 8.
round 4 v. combo elves
i have to face a buddy of mine for elimination. bummer. he's playing no pro in his board instead of wish. i tried to tell him.
game 1: he fizzles turn 2 i don't turn 3.
game 2: i turn 2 him.
round 5 v. merfolk w/goyf "'win and in"
game 1: i put him on countertop play a turn 2 crossroads and pay dearly for it with his hasty lords.
games 2 and 3: i have turn 0 leylines both games and his submerges are nearly useless. dreamcrush!
top 8 i played a really good countertop player who was well geared to beat aggro. turn 1 lavamancer plus 2 swords, a few fetches, and 2 forces later and we're on to game 2. game 2 i play turn 0 leyline, he plays turn one explosives. i force him to blow it with 3 dudes and a archdruid then draw 3 lands in a row while he plays 3 5/6 goyfs. blownout! :(
all in all it was a really fun day and a good experience. i wished for everything in my board at least once except for ezuri, but he came in every time i went to the leyline plan. i never used the thorns, but i didn't play against non-creature combo either. i plan on playtesting a lot more legacy with friends since scg memphis is coming up. i'll post any changes.
Grapeshot, killer of threads. Heh. Specifically, elf combo threads :o) I like Grapeshot as well, it's a decent solution for Peacekeeper besides a good win condition. No solution for for Canonist, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
I think we're at a point now where it's safe to say you'd need either storm combo or wishboard. Emrakul alone doesn't get you past Peacekeeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
the main annoying combo stoppers are cards like peacekeeper/blazing archon and cards like leyline of sanctity/solitary confinement and the like. Emrakul beats sanctity/solitary and Masticore/tendrills/grapeshot beat peacekeeper/archon. Thus, Emrakul with Masticore in board beats both and the storm kills only beat one. Emrakul/Masticore is the more versatile solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabbaman
Kyller83- great info. You think Ezuri still worth being in the board? I found him being wishable at 10 for the win to be useful sometimes.
After watching a player do very well with Elf Combo, I think my eyes are opened and I'm very interested in learning how to play this deck. I can't wait until I'm able to get the cards.
Kyller83, I don't see your decklist here. Would you mind sharing it? And, if I may ask, why do you play Viridian Corrupter over the Shaman?
Hi,
I am new to the forum and I did not read the whole thread, so please excuse if some of my questions were already discussed.
I've been working on my combo-elves for the last couple of weeks.
I tried a build with Natural Order & Progenitus, but I felt it hurt the combo a lot & became my primary wincon and not the secondary.
The questions, which are currently most interesting for me are:
Which tutor is better in addition/[partly] replacement to summoners pac?!:
- Green Sun's Zenit: Sorcery, but early game combo fix for 2 mana or archdruid for 4 mana for beatdown.
- Chord of calling: Instant, cheap in middle/late game, not limited to green
- Living wish: Sourcery, but flexible in terms of getting utility creature from SB, wincon or cradle
What is the best protection vs. mass destruction?
I experience a lot of ratchet bombs/powder keg, Engenieered explosives next to firespout & fire/ice. This is why I prefer 4 Wrap in Vigor over burrenton, absolute law.
would you prefer xantid sarm or Vexing Shusher vs. counter/top, landstill?
What are your experiences with this questions? How does it depend on your gameplan / wincon or against which decks you are playing (meta)?
Looking forward to the discussion.
Johannes
I am going to start a re-write of the Primer to get this thread rebooted. As I can't anticipate all the questions that people may have, I am asking for some user submitted questions to include. I hope to have this written up in about 2 weeks time. Specifically I will be focusing heavily on mana-bases (only forest, forest+fetch, cradle maindeck) and the 2ndary tutoring (GSZ, Wish, Chord). I think it is safe to assume that most of us run Summoner's Pact already, and it compliments Glimpse of Nature.
If nothing else, getting some of those questions out will stir up some new discussion.
Possibly about SB strategies - Vexing Shusher vs Leyline, Krosan Grip vs Nature's Claim, etc...
Hi Catmint, welcome to snazziest thread of them all! I know you said you hadn't read through the whole thing, but I would encourage you to look around a bit as these topics have all been discussed in great length. A quick answer from my is:Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
-Summoner's Pact and Living Wish are the way to go.
-Leyline is the best card against ctop and counters in general
-The best defense against sweepers is to hold as many cards in hand as you can without slowing your combo down.
Again though, you should read over the thread because there are a lot of differing opinions on these topics.
A small report from our weekly torunament:
1) lands- I played against this guy two times before with my elves and we have realized that his build has basically no way how to fight threats coming from my deck. We spent next 55mins playing Highlander and I got 2:0.
2) ant- My most feared matchup but since last time I have full package of thorns. He goes first and in first two rounds he plays duress twice discarding pact and glimpse. I drew another glimpse and kill him T3 with single Nettle and billion times kicked JWC.
In game two he starts with duress taking my glimps but I topdeck thron and follwing turn I pacted (got to pay 1!) ftw. He has Orrims chant but not enough mana.
It was suprisingly easy. I think this is our worst matchup not just because he is generaly full turn faster but esp. because of O Chant which is just unfair. :-)
3) burn with steppe lynxes- t1 Llanowar - grim; glimpse and just win. He starts game two with grim again but since I am on the draw he has time to use it. Another fetch, gobling guide, griming my elf. I play forest and two sentinels. Fetch, burning one, griming the other, swing with two guides. I play glimpse, quirion, birchlore tapping both for joraga. Pass. He casts marauder, pithing needle naming birchlore (doesnt work) and swing again. He has no cards in hand. I cast glimpse and win.
This game impressed me a lot. Despite burning my first three elves, active lavamancer and some preassure I had still cards in hand and on board - it was simply not enough.
4) instill energy homebrew mono G enchantress - I keep - forest, visionary, quirion, nettle, nettle, llanowar, birchlore. Game took many rounds but I didnt see anything relevant (4glimpse, 4pact, 4insect, 3archdruid, regal, joraga...) and died to his emrakul. First loss! I played enchantress for a long time and this was simply shocking. It featured arbor elf, enchant lands, instill energy untapping his lands with emrakul finish. Such a poor build...
I sided in only Elvish champion and win turn three twice. Good.
It was my fifth tournament so far with score 16-4 which is full 80%! I did play only one round against deck featuring chalice (and lost; the other three comes from Ant), living wish comes handy here I guess. Doesnt it slow the deck? I love explosivness and stability of this construction.
All the best and excuse my poor english. Tom
namida: here is the decklist i ran for reference and i ran corrupter over shaman because i didn't see a reason not to. it costs the same and has infect.
4 llanowar elves
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
4 wirewood symbiote
4 elvish visionary
3 birchlore ranger
3 arbor elf
3 elvish archdruid
1 joraga warcaller
1 regal force
4 glimpse of nature
3 living wish
4 summoner’s pact
1 concordant crossroads
6 forest
7 fetches
sideboard:
4 leyline of lifeforce
4 thorn of amethyst
1 emrakul
1 regal force
1 viridian corrupter
1 gaea’s cradle
1 masticore
1 ezuri
1 terastodon
k2thej: i definitely had points in the tourney where i was thinking of ezuri to wish for, but i needed 11 mana to make it lethal and just pushed to 17 for emrakul. i think he's very big after boarding in leylines giving you a 5th lord to aggro with, plus those situations where you semi-combo with regal force and no glimpse. you can wish for him and leave mana up to regen. i don't think i'd cut him.
From the outside looking in, the reason not to run the Corrupter is because it has Infect. At first glance, it seems like Viridian Shaman would actually do damage (contribute to a swarm strategy, take advantage of the life loss your opponent may have incurred themselves etc.) if you had to switch to attacking to win, while Corrupter would need to be gigantic (being the lone Infect creature) to be lethal. Is it that you want a blocker that can weaken your opponent's creatures? Or is it that you often run into situations where you can actually win with Poison Counters faster than regular damage if Corrupter is in play? Or have the differences just normally been so marginal for you that you just think the Corrupter is cool? It might be glaringly obvious here, but I have no experience with the deck, so I have no idea.
I too think Corrupter is an inferior version of Shaman. I can only imagine in a defensive position would the Infect ability become relevant, but in most situations you are in the aggressive position and the damage rather than poison is more important.
in all honesty i thought it would be cool. i've never killed anyone with poison counters(with this deck), but i've never had it inhibit my strategy either. once during testing i had him out w/ezuri triple activated, but victory was inevitable.
The best defense against board sweepers in my opinion is Caller Of The Claw.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
You do your combo the best you can then after you bait them into sweeping you drop that bomb!!!
I understand now. The thought I'm having is that the scenarios where you can't win because of Corrupter's inability to deal damage are more likely to happen than any benefit Corrupter would give from having infect. Even if you've never had it inhibit you, the theory here that it is able to inhibit you in ways that you can circumvent entirely by playing the Shaman in its place should be enough to warrant changing back to the Shaman, in my opinion. Given that you have the experience with the deck and I don't, I might seem like I'm nitpicking a little bit, but I certainly don't want to read your next report to find that you lost any games because you could only deal like 19 damage and 7 poison counters or anything like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyller83
(Though I understand where you're coming from--I was sorely hoping that you'd be able to name a benefit to Corrupter so I'd have an excuse to play it.)