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I've never run less than two maindeck. Card is absurd. I even run a third in the board. Legacy is currently a format where you can profitably run maindeck Relic of Progenitus in decks that never want to use their graveyard, and in that kind of format the Ooze is amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
What ZaganOstia says is basically it. You are trying to hard. There was an article on ChannelFireball about their Standard RG Ramp deck that played 4 Huntmasters. They started with 1 as a GSZ target, then went to 2 and quickly to 4. The key is that it is a good card on his own even without flipping and flipping it back and forth is a great potential bonus. It is a completely optional upside and there is no need to pass the turn if you got better stuff to do and/or suspect they might have an Instant nor do you have to build the deck around it. If it happens it is awesome, if it doesn't happen it is still fine.
Compared to another staple of this deck you get two 2/2s and two life which is basically a four Mana Kitchen Finks. It is usually a bit better (especially vs. Swords to Plowshares and Jace TMS) but not enough to be worth an additional Mana if that was it. The potential upside is what makes it worth one extra Mana compared to Finks.
Finaly got some time to test Punishing Fire build and it rocks.
Lands (23)
2 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Broodmate Dragon
Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Living Wish
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
3 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Shriekmaw
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Grave Titan
3 Trinisphere
I faced no mana problems while running both Liliana and PFire and, as mentioned earlier, the combination of two is nuts.
Tested Burning Wish, it was not that bad, but two things made it leave my list: 1) Most times I wished for removal of some sort, but there's Maelstrom Pulse to cover everything for less amount of mana, and 2) Living Wish can grab Grove of Burnwillows.
Huntmaster's overall effectieveness against field is on par with Thrun if not one thing: 2+ life saved my ass multiple times vs burn/sligh decks, so 2 Huntmasters stay in. I started with 3, but it's nice to be able to tutor for Scavenging Ooze with both Wish and Zenith.
As for Combo hate, my plan is to use discard, then drop Trinisphere and/or Wish for Magus of the Moon. Magus wins some matchups all by himself, so I suggest it to everyone who runs Living Wish and red mana.
Other cards are more or less obvious and I will be glad to hear your opinions about my list.
Wow. Going red instead of white seems to be the way to go. There was always something about going academy rector --> boss enchantment that makes me hang on, but I'm probably playing an inferior list. It's ironic that Broodmate looks so good with moat.
Went 6-3 at Indy, missing day two by literally one win. I had a round one bye, then proceeded to beat Dredge and Goblins, before dying to GW Maverick and Stoneblade. Then I beat BUG Thresh, Canadian Thresh, died to GW Maverick again, and beat Canadian Thresh again for vengeance from the 8th round. The Maverick losses annoy me, because I think that between 5 games I saw literally one Pernicious Deed. I also had a little bit of mana screw against the second Maverick deck, although that was partially my fault by keeping a horrible hand g2.
I don't really have time at the moment to do any kind of a full report, but I will note the following:
-) Baneslayer is absolutely nuts. She won me multiple games just by being Baneslayer, and having multiple flying threats to get over Moat was definitely relevant.
-) Super secret sideboard tech: Carpet of Flowers. I trimmed out Chains, Stony Silence, and Selkie for a triple of them Friday night. It's a beautiful backup mana source, and it single-handedly won me multiple games against Canadian Thresh. One game my opponent had a triple-Wasteland hand, but I had double Carpet of Flowers, and they gave me enough mana to keep myself afloat until I dug out of that situation.
-) I resolved like three Tsunamis, and they were marvelous every time. Of the three, my opponent was only able to dig out of it once, and by that point it was far, far too late to do anything.
I've been thinking about Crime // Punishment.
This card looks really good. It costs the same as an Engineered Explosives that you'd activate the turn it comes into play, and its quicker than Pernicious Deed. Alternatively it gives you a threat by stealing a goyf or knight. It also dodges stifle. This deck doesn't have the mana problems to cast it either, and you can run more than 4 deeds this way.
Hey, I suggested that card in this very thread! Hadn't put in enough testing with it in relevant matchups to actually determine how well it performs in this deck though, but I'm glad someone did the legwork for me. :cool: Sorry you missed day two, but congrats on the finish anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Ah, excellent! I definitely missed that post -- good thing that great minds think alike, then, I suppose. As a backup ramp source it was awesome...I think that I wasn't boarding properly with it, though, since I was boarding as I usually do (shaving expensive threats that are too slow for specific matchups, esp. tempo), instead of adapting to using Carpet. With Explorers and Carpets, you can easily go big in games two and three vs tempo, which usually you can't do after they see how the deck works. If you have Canadian Thresh in your meta, Carpet is -the- go-to answer IMO. Stoneblade is a little more subjective...their lists can vary greatly between pilots.
For the straight B/G version I have seen a version run tragic slip in the dismember slot. It seems interesting
A bit disappointing that no Nic finished in Indy. Good job Arian though.
But I feel that the deck was kind of underplayed, the Punishing Fire version can certainly beat RUG, Maverick and UW. Dredge is a SB thing, only Solidarity is really unpleasant. Not sure about the Esper deck matchup, Lingering Souls seems like sick tech.
I've played a couple of matches on both sides of the Lingering Souls/Nic Fit equation, and with straight G/B it's pretty miserable. They get an entire air force with one card and it takes a Deed or Pulse to clear it out. You still have the Veteran Explorer/Jace problem in that matchup as well, alongside the huge annoyance of Batterskull if your opponent actually understands how to manipulate the card's abilities in this matchup.
That specific list appears to be pretty manageable with a Punishing Fire build though, as that deck doesn't have good ways to keep you off your Groves.
Alright, after 13 hours on the road today getting home I don't really have much to say that's intelligent or even rational. I will note though RE: Tao that I honestly only saw one, MAYBE two other people even trying to play with Veterans at Indy, for the main event anyway. There may have been some in side events...I dunno. The one I can remember for sure seeing was straight G/B, and I think that the phantom maybe other sighting was G/B as well, but I might be just confused. Either way, I honestly think that it's more of a case that nobody played the deck -- I think that everyone else who was going to audibled to Maverick last minute. I'll try to post something more elaborate tomorrow. For now, I'm going to go pass out.
A friend of mine played the BGW pod version (he plays pod in all formats!) and had one bye. I "THINK" he went 5-3. I saw him get some sweet yosei recursion wins though. His game1s seemed to last forever since I saw 2 of his game 2s end in a draw (though he won the 1st).
i am not overly surprised that it is underrepresented. I have not played against the deck in the large legacy tournys, besides playtesting with him. (though i will prolly need to switch out maverick if he decides to play at the lgs with it)
I played G/B in Indy this past weekend.
I can post the exact list if you want later, but I am at work and I was tweaking the build it right up until the point of registering the deck so I may forget the exact build.
Rnd 1: Bye
(1-0)
Rnd 2: Dredge
Lets not talk about this one, I made 3 of the dumbest play mistakes in ONE turn to cost myself the game.
(1-1)
Rnd 3 & 4: Natural Order & Sneak&Tell (Don't have my notes so order my be backwards)
(2-1)
(3-1)
Rnd 5: Storm (Tendrils of Agony)
My opponent got warnings for slow play, so much so that a judge came and sat next to him and continued to tell him to move it along, of course this made it go to game 3 and he beat me in turn 4 of overtime after his 3rd silence in a row.
(3-2)
Rnd 6: UW Blade
(3-3)
Rnd 7: RUG
(4-3)
Decided to drop after this round and give my opponent the win due to the fact that I had no chance of making day two and I was super hungry.
I can expand on these games later, back to work.
Yesterday i played the exact Punishing Nic Fit list that eq.firemind posted not long ago. Thanks for sharing!
The tourney went well, i top 4ed 49 man tourney and that's more than i expected since i didn't really have time to test matchups and all.
Brief synopsis (as far as i remember, my notes suck):
Round 1 - Burn. 2-1, i try to strip his burn first and then ramp with Explorer. He almost got me, but i stabilize on Huntmaster and then Baloth.
Round 2 - RUG. 1-2. I can't remember first round, i think Delver got unanswered and i got my Top Forced. Second game he makes a mistake and boards in Counterbalance that didn't really counter anything and i got something going, i forgot what. 3rd game he had that nice 1st turn Delver into gas and i mulled to 6 where i got 3 lands- a fetch and 2 nonbasics. I keep but he Stifles my fetch and Wasted me, plays 2 Brainstorms and Goyf and that's all she wrote.
Round 3 - Reanimator. i won 2-1. I discard his Entomb and he doesn't draw into creatures. I cast Ooze, he Forces, then gets Study and Reanimates Iona on green. I mise Innocent Blood from the top and win with Fires (he was on 5 after Reanimate). Second game, he resolves Jin-Gintaxias which i manage to destroy with Fire, but the draw 7 got him enough to win. Third game it was stalemate and i ripped Ooze to win on the spot.
Round 4 - Burn with Lavamancer. i won 2-0, basically same as game one, strip their hand, then accelerate into Deed and then Huntmaster and/or Living Wish. He also played Ball Lightnings, but i chumped with tokens and Huntmasters. Opponent was kinda flooded all the time, at times i didn't have targets for Therapy, but did it for Explorer.
Round 5 - RUG. Can't remember the details. First game i Therapy him, then Explorer and he clearly isn't happy. I drop Deed and Huntmaster i think. Second game he put me on 6, but is in topdecking mode, so i Wish for Magus so he needs 2 bolts or 1 Bolt plus threat, which he doesn't.
Round 6 - Esper Blade, i won 2-0. Throughout the first game I Fired 3 of his Jaces, 6 of his tokens (weren't really a threat, but i wanted to preserve Deed) and gained him like 10 life. Then i spinned Top and saw Therapy, Wish, Dragon. he Forced Therapy and that was it. Second game was kinda similar, he was flooded and didn't have enough to put any pressure on me. After the game he tells me he got really flooded. Seems that thining out lands for your opponents doesn't do enough:)
Round 7 - RUG, i won 2-0. First turns he Ponders and i Top for lands. Then he drops 2 waves of dudes. First wave i manage to Fire Delver, then second wave I find a lucky Deed with top when i'm on 6 and i clear the board of Mongoose, Goyf, Snapcaster, Delver. Second game i think i also Therapy him, he Brainstorms in response and draws 3 lands of the top, then hides something on top, which get shuffled away when i flashback Therapy on Explorer. Since i see his grip is bunch of nonbasics, i wish for Magus, then lock him out with Lili+Huntmaster+Fire.
Semifinals - Gw 12-post Eldrazi I lost 0-2. First game he gets Exploration first turn and i don't get any discard, so he gets Titan and then Emrakul. Game 2, i slow him down with Magus, but i don't have basic Swamp, so i can't Innocent Blood Titan away and drop Broodmate. He drops another Titan and ramps to 15 lands, then drops Emmy again.
So i finished 3-4th and got Bayou and Plateau. I dodged all the bad matchups (combo i guess?) and fed on tempo strategies and Burn all day.
The last match was pretty unfavorable i guess. He basically did to me what i did to all those thresh decks whole day and i guess that's karma..
All in all this is really nice deck for current meta. Punishing Fire was all around awesome and better than Swords most of the time.
Wow, that's actually more than I expected from my crappy deckbuilding skills :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by zalachan
I've got couple of questions:
1) How usable was Trinisphere?
2) Did you Wished for Grove just to assemble manabase versus unlucky draws/tempo strategies?
I mean, they can only have that much wastelands and Grove taps for that :r: to burn their Delver with PFire...
3) How often did you Zenith for Witness?
With PFire recursion Witness feels less and less needed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
1) I boarded it against Burn and didn't really see it. I guess IF you draw all the discard first and Trini later, it can be good, but as i mentioned, i didn't get to see the effect.
2) I haven't really Wished for Grove whole day. At one moment i wished i had a basic Swamp to wish for, but that was marginal case in the last game when i was under Magus. Against tempo i Wished for Shriekmaw but idk if that is the correct choice. I never lacked red mana when i had Fire against Delver, but in the mentioned scenario i probably would go for Grove.
3) I never really did it. I searched mostly for Huntmaster or Explorer, and once i did for a Dragon. But Witness was still good when i drew it. The irony is, that more than once i recurred Punishing Fire with it, because i didn't have the Groove:laugh: But mostly i just returned fetches to fix my basics.
The wishlist seems good and well rounded, but maybe a wishable sweeper wouldn't be that bad. Something similar to Caldera Helion? Just brainstorming though.
Just for comparison I posted a Punishing Fire list with Wish a while ago, too. It has the Hellion in the Wishboard.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post621942
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalachan
I realize it's usually harder to get triple black in Jund lists than it is to get double red, but I feel like Massacre Wurm has a lot of upside as a Living Wish target, compared to Caldera Hellion. He generally leaves you with a better body, and he's not going to kill any of your dudes. Granted, he does kill less stuff than Hellion, but with the general lack of tribal decks in today's metagame, the difference between killing an x/3 and killing an x/2 seems more marginal than it used to when Merfolk and Goblins were more prevalent concerns. Also, Hellion works as an Explorer sac outlet, but I feel like this matters less than how he kills himself if you don't have anything to sac to him. Besides Explorer, we have no incentive to kill our own dudes, and we already have plenty of ways to throw him under the bus. And last but not least, Wurm has the two life for each creature killed benefit, which can help out given this deck's slow clock. Anyways, I've liked Wurm as a Wish target in testing, he makes Maverick players go seriously on tilt. I did find that tweaking the manabase of a Jund list to accommodate triple black was a significant strain, but not impossible. And while you're already there, you get to run Liliana alongside P Fire. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I can't possibly see how you can reliably get tripple black.
I for one think it is almost impossible to play Liliana in Punishing Fire Nic Fit.
Show me the manabase!