Printable View
Except the R/G version has issues with goyf and batterskull. While not a good answer, this is that + maga. It also promotes running sweepers. Don't get me wrong. I'm not running it. It is only "ok" in what I consider a sub-par list. But to completely dismiss it is somewhat daft.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
hey everyone. suuuuper long time lurker, but first time poster. i finally decided to make an account to contribute to this awesome thread you guys have going on. i'm really grateful to the regular contributors for developing such a killer deck.
i was rocking the regular UG post with trinket mages for a while, but finally decided to try-out the more creature-heavy DRS/thragtusk build a couple nights ago at a local tournament. this was my first time playing brainstorms or DRS in the deck. i loved the brainstorms, but absolutely hated the DRS. with that said, i really like the new looks of the RUG-post decks with bonfire and TtB.
so that i can actually contribute something of substance in my first post, i wrote a tournament report. as i said, my list was a pretty standard DRS/brainstorm build with 1x candelabra main, 1x gsz, 1x thragtusk and no glen elendra or oracle of mul daya. feedback or questions would be much appreciated.
-----------------------
round 1 -- elves! -- 1 - 1 - 1
game 1 -- i mull to 6 and he keeps his opening 7. he leads with a llanowar and i lead with brainstorm into fetch to do some quality hand sculpting. i'm able to keep making my land drops while he starts vomiting out elves. i pop an oblivion ring to clear out the field, but he's soon back in action. he gets out an ezuri, which forces me to rotate for a glacial chasm to buy some more time. he green sun's for a terastodon and kills the chasm and 2x cloudposts. i die to ezuri.
game 2 -- i side in a tabernacle among other things. again, he starts puking out elves very, very quickly. two brainstorms and a fetch find me a show and tell along with a primeval titan, so i show in the titan. he shows a priest of titania. the titan gets my chasm to buy me a few turns, but he green sun's zeniths for a terastodon, which gets the chasm. i drop a tabernacle, which slows him down a little bit, and primeval swings into terastodon to get two more posts. i finally have the right lands to assemble the infinite-turn emrakul/karakas combo while he has lethal on board. fortunately, he never gets another turn. time gets called right after i kill him.
round 2 -- affinity -- 2 - 1 - 0
game 1 -- he opens with a powerful, but not particularly fast hand. the turn before he would have swung for a lot, i land a chasm with a pretty big life buffer. i hardcast a primeval, which finds me eye of ugin. the turn chasm would kill me i don't pay the life so chasm gets binned, freeing up primeval to attack. primeval finds two posts which gives me just enough mana to assemble the infinite turns emmy/karakas combo.
game 2 -- he gets a fast plating out and quickly beats me down to 11. i find a chasm and drop it, but i have to blow a vesuva making another chasm so i don't die to cumulative upkeep. then i have to vesuva the vesuva that was copying chasm a couple turns later. the game went on for quite a while, but i was never really in it, since i was wasting all my resources on simply staying alive.
game 3 -- he gets another really fast start (3 memnite opener) and by turn 2 he is down to one card in hand. on turn 3 he comes in for lethal, but i cast rebuild during his attack phase. he recovers surprisingly well from the rebuild thanks to those 3 memnites, however. no matter -- by this point i've seen enough cards with top/brainstorm/fetches to dig-up my tabernacle, which wrecks him on his upkeep. soon i show in a primeval and after one attack step, i've assembled enough mana to hardcast emmy.
round 3 -- 4 color (!) maverick -- 0 - 2 - 0
game 1 -- he opens with a slow hand, however he has a scryb ranger, gaddock teeg and knight within the first 4 or 5 turns. teeg turns off the repeal and green sun zenith in my hand, which really hurts. the knight/scryb ranger combo wastes two of my posts in one turn. my opponent has also had a flipped garruk relentless for a few turns at this point and is popping out wolf tokens. although i manage to show in a primeval titan, he dies to a deathtouch wolf the first time he attacks. (no point in keeping him up for blocks as my opponent has a mom pro-greening his KOTR every turn). i have a decent manabase rebuilt after two primeval triggers, but it's not quite enough to get a fatty down in time and i die.
game 2 -- he goes for a first turn green sun's for zero getting dryad arbor. i brainstorm my first turn, then repeal his arbor after i untap. feels good. he starts using knight to waste me while beating down with a qasali pridgemage wearing a sword of feast and famine. a tabernacle significantly slows him down, but the knight is still doing work and the pridgemage is still beating down. i find an ensnaring bridge, but he has exactly enough mana to kill the bridge with the pridgemage, pay knight's upkeep from tabernacle, move the sword to the knight, and get in for exactly lethal. if i'd have had only one more point of life, i could have dropped a primeval who could have netted me a ton of life off of glimmerposts. from there, i could have easily turned the game around, but i wasn't meant to be.
matches: 1 - 1 - 1
games: 3 - 4 - 1
props:
tabernacle -- unimpressive against elves, but devastating in my other two rounds. i can't imagine cutting 1x from my sideboard, and might even move it to the main for my local meta (lots of creature-heavy fair decks).
glacial chasm -- often times ends up just prolonging my inevitable death, but sometimes it's the MVP.
brainstorm -- there's a reason it's referred to as the best card in legacy.
slops:
DRS -- holy crap he was terrible. a birds of paradise would have been better 9 times out of 10.
So I'm not sure why you guys all just dismissed a white splash so quickly. I personally feel that terminus/stp is definitely stronger than repeal/bonfire. Bonfire is nice in that it can do a one-sided sweep against both creatures and walkers, but its another card that needs you to ramp a fair bit before getting any real value out of it. You'll usually need at least 2R to sweep deathrites/delvers, which is rather difficult when trying to play around daze/pierce/wastelands versus the tempo decks. Terminus only costs W to miracle and will deal with goyf and knight. It single-handedly can win the game versus a maverick opponent for the low low cost of W. White also brings swords to plowshares, which solves a lot of the problems that the red splash faces: goyf, bskull, and kotr. I haven't had that much trouble with planeswalkers with this deck since it ends the game in a combo fashion that negates a lot of the card advantage that the walkers give your opponents.
White also gives you a lot more sideboarding options versus various combo decks. You can just load up on hatebears with 4-6 counters so that you become a midrange deck with a clock. Most combo decks will have fits playing through a combination of meddling mage/ethersworn canonist/thalia/revoker. This is my current list that I've been tweaking. Unsure about the land composition and whether or not chasm is still necessary with all of the removal. Also considering -1 tundra, +1 savannah
Creatures (7)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul
1x Kozilek
1x Ulamog
Spells (25)
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
3x Expedition Map
4x Crop Rotation
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Terminus
3x Show and Tell
Mana Lands (24)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Savannah
1x Island
4x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Karakas
"Spell" Lands (5)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Glacial Chasm
2x Vesuva
Preliminary sb looks like this so far:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
29 lands and only 6 potential cloudposts (cloudpost + vesuva) seems like a poor ratio. it feels like this deck is going to have a hard time generating the huge amounts of mana we want in the late game. do you really need all those colored sources instead of more posts??
It hasn't been a huge problem so far. When i was testing with more vesuva's, the manabase was super shaky and I was often color screwed by a wasteland+stifle. As is, the deck is a lot more capable of grinding out the game versus the aggro decks so you have the breathing room to just drop land, go. It feels a little more like a miracles deck that has the titans/posts there for inevitability.
Welcome! Thanks for the tourney report.Quote:
Originally Posted by ph88
In defense of DRS, he wasn't brought into my list to fight any of the matchups you had faced with him (bonfire would toast those decks tho lol). He was mostly a response to tempo, with a nice plus side to fighting random yard decks too. I still find him to be very decent. Though you cannot be enticed to keep hands which RELY on him as a bird of paradise - sounds counter intuitive, but you should rely on your basics and colored sources, and he will assist and draw attention. That being said, he is still on the fence each time I sleeve up and very dependent on the meta. But in a tempo and combo heavy format, I'm still into DRS. But, as seen in this thread, many options are available and are extremely different angles at shoring up whatever holes in the meta are there.
The rUG lists seem pretty strong, but high variance. 3 Bonfires seems like too much for me.. But man some of the bonfire lines are SICK, which is a lot to say in a deck that loops tutorable emerakuls..
This. I've always felt that this deck was missing solid permanent based hate. As HoneyT said a few posts before that hydra silliness, varying the hate is key (true across legacy). Venser is a key step in that direction, being a nice reaction/trump to combo that isn't just a counterspell, but hate bears represent a completely different hurdle for combo to overcome. I put meddling mages, and a few white duals in a few times because its such a boss against omni - but never ended up committing (mana is tough). I really like the direction of the side board in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Actually I like the whole list. Though all these miracles are risky because we have to wonder how many cards we can add before the average starting hand is a virtual mull to six.. there are already too many, and our manipulation already carries a very heavy load.
I still give the edge to repeal over StP. Bonus manipulation, very very many relevant permanents to bounce, cute tricks, and replacing itself are all worth the 1 or 2 mana extra.
To be honest, I've never been a huge fan of repeal. Its a nice tempo play to bounce a permanent, but it just doesn't do enough versus goyf or kotr. I can't think of too many non creature permanents that are commonly played that require bouncing to go off. Ensnaring bridge and humility are the only two that come to mind and they're relatively rare sb cards. Also, without candelabra, the only cute trick I can see with repeal is to bounce sensei top with its draw ability on the stack.
As for cards to open with, I haven't really been too impressed with kozilek lately so he might get the axe. Ulamog needs to stay to deal with random permanents. That leaves 6 creatures, 3 terminus, and 3 lands (chasm, bog, and eye) as cards you don't want to see in your starting 7. Terminus isn't too bad since you can always brainstorm it into a wrath; the titans arent too bad because there's always show and tell; eye and bog are necessary evils. The chasm might get the axe just because I'm running so much removal as well as the fact that drs just kinna laughs at it.
Got 3rd at Poughkeepsie yesterday with a list very similar to my current running list, which is as follows:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ZEN] Island (8)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [US] Show and Tell
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
Only differences were -1 Glacial Chasm, +1 Show and Tell on the main, and 2x Through the Breach (which I never sided in despite playing against a large array of decks)
This list only has so much merit, as come Tharos this deck will become SwanSong orgy and flipped on its head design-wise.
Can i ask other than swan song what things are you considering from theros.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Got second yesterday at a 20 something person event lost in the finals to mud he just had the nuts t1 bloodmoon game 1 followed by beaters and game 2 win on turn 4. Bonfire was an mvp wrathing boards and ending games in multiple matchs. I never had a chance to cast through the breach as I only ever saw it when I was already hardcasting eldrazi would have been able to steal the game 2 in the finals if I had gotten a 5th turn in the finals as I had emrakul and that in my hand but it wasnt meant to be. The oracle was also really good especially vs shardless letting me ramp out of a clump of lands and get enough of a presence to steal I win I wouldnt have gotten with out it.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [zen] oracle of mul daya
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [chk] through the breach
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 red elemental blast
SB: 1 tabernacle at pendrell vale
Call me a hipster but I'm going back to straight UG. Like January's list, with Swan Song and Glen Elendra. Meat and potatoes.
@somethingdotdotdot and @TimHarding:
thanks for the responses, guys! if i can find terminuses i'm gonna try swapping out the DRS's for that bant colored tech and see where it gets me at a local tournament tomorrow.
i don't have volc islands, but i'd love to try out that RUG list. congrats to all you guys that have been placing well with it.
I'm guessing your W/U/G testing didn't go well? I heard you stomped someone at Torrington at least with it. thoughts? I've always considered W weak, but I'm intrigued at your opinion having played it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
What's your opinion on Carpet of Flowers? Seems ridiculous in the blue infested meta.
Sure, but doesn't solve your problem matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
What did you think about not having Chasm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Why don't you think you need Show anymore? Against certain matches I like having the MUST counter.
How different is it really going to be?
There is a big difference between 1 show and tell and 0. I am not an advocate of zero-shows at all. I am however testing zero chasm. Bonfire has shored up most of the reasons I need the chasm at all, and as a response to lower show count, I need to show in a titan to get chasm less to stablize. Still being tested though.Quote:
Originally Posted by That nice guy
Sorry for kind of "intruding" on everyone's discussion. But I've been testing a mono green cloudpost deck very similar to the one from Modern before bannings. I play it for budget reasons as I do not have tropicals, candelabra or show and tell. I was hoping to get some feedback. I've played it three times at my LGS weekly legacy and have gone 4-0, 3-1 and 2-2. I usually easily win against miracles, maverick, and delver. I'm pretty bad vs combo but I seem to have a good matchup against Omnitell (trinisphere and grip destroy this deck). Here's my list:
4 cloudpost
4 vesuva
4 glimmerpost
1 eye of ugin
1 glacial chasm
11 forest
1 dryad arbor
4 overgrown battlement
4 wall of roots
1 emrakul
1 ulamog
4 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith
3 sylvan scrying
4 crop rotation
4 expedition map
3 sensei's divining top
2 oblivion stone
SB:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 bojuka bog
The walls have been a love hate relationship. In legacy I feel they're underpowered but they've been helping out so much by giving green mana, accelerating me when people wasteland my cloudposts early game, and blocking early goyfs, mongeese, lackeys, etc.
Some cards I'm considering are wurmcoil engine, karn liberated, all is dust and maybe finding room for the full playset of oblivion stone. I always see 4 sensei's top in most lists. Is it important to stick with 4? I'd appreciate any help!
Thanks!
Blastoderm, I know there are several people who try to make this deck work on a budget, but this thread is devoted to the optimal list irrespective of cost. I have played a mono-green version in the past, specifically during mental-misstep days, where I needed an excessive amount of cmc 1's to allow crop rotation to resolve through Mental Misstep. If such a meta does return, I would reconsider mono-green, but blue offers far too much against problematic matchups. Additionally, mono-green is greatly assisted by candelabras. When I ran mono-green I ran 4 candelabra automatically.
Some people to Private Message if you prefer mono-green versions, are Anusien or that forum troll Borat. They both play mono green, unsuccessfully I'll mention, but they play it.