Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnytalls
8 mana... Socery... I'm going to say it's bad... like really bad. We have to invest many cards to get it down to a reasonable casting cost. Go ahead and test but... I don't like it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnytalls
8 mana... Socery... I'm going to say it's bad... like really bad. We have to invest many cards to get it down to a reasonable casting cost. Go ahead and test but... I don't like it.
Worth testing though. Seems okay as a two-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by skinnytalls
Gitaxian Probe is still better than this.
That's not a bad card, I think it's probably better than G Probe, but not better than stifle.
I already tested Owen's list, G probre's list and stifle's list and I think stifle is the best option.
I think, despite of stifle is a great card in several situations, it's also a bad card in some matches (decks without fetchlands/wasteland in general), and it's a card that you usually won't want to get 2 copies in your hand. So I think 3 is the best possible number of copies of stifle in this build. It's like spell pierce: a great card, but it's pretty mediocre in some matches, where the opponent uses tons of creatures and few non-creature spells. That's why 3 is the best number for spell pierce also. Swords to Plowshares is broken, but you already use 4 bolts in maindeck and it's the best option to cut 1 copy for stifle and keep the 4th plowshares in SB.
I'm currrently using this list:
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear/Tear
1 Swords to Plowshares
Hey everybody,
I played my first tournament with UWR Delver yesterday. I went 5-0 for 1st place using the following list:
Maindeck:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
SB:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 True Name Nemesis
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
1 Wear/Tear
My MUs were:
R1: Belcher Win 2-0
R2: Affinity Win 2-1
R3: Deathblade Win 2-0
R4: B/G Pox Win 2-1
R5: Elves Win 2-0
I really enjoyed playing this list! Having access to that many creature removal felt really nice. I chose to play this rather "unconventional" list (2 Lavamancer, 4th Sword maindeck over 3 Gitaxian Probe/Stifle) since I expected a lot of creature based decks in my local meta. Especially against Deathblade, Affinity and Elves those changes really payed off. Another advantage I like with this configuration is that it gives me 3 more SB slots, since other lists move Lavamancer and StoP #4 to the sideboard. The addition of 2 Needle is what I like most about that. They are really nice to have in so many matchups because they can shut down so many different cards, Sneak Attack, Top, Aether Vial and Jace/Liliana is what I wanted them for the most. Although that didn´t come up yesterday they were still nice to have since they won me a game against Pox (naming Mishra´s Factory) which I would have probably lost without them (opponent had 3 Factories in play and I killed him with a lone Meddling Mage going the distance :wink: )
Going forward I would like to fit another Wear/Tear into the SB since I feel the deck is a little weak to resolved non-creature permanents (hence the great use of Needle also). I am yet unsure which card to cut for it... the 3rd Rest in Peace would be the most likely one, although it definitely feels better to have at least 3 pieces of gravehate available when you need them. Any thoughts on what else I could exchange for it?
Congratulations on the finish. Nice list! On the 1 slot, I suggest probably taking out the 4th stp to fit in the 4th Spell Pierce. Between the bolts, jitte and lavamancers you already have tons of removal so I don't think losing an stp would make that much of a difference. I've been on 3 stp since I started running stifle and haven't been missing the 4th so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by venice
Noticed you didn't run a 3rd sword. How was it? Did it make a difference not having a SoFI or SoFF? Is this a meta-related choice?
I'm planning to test a 2 meddling mage 2 ethersworn Canonist sb choice this weekend because I've been having a hard time with sneak and show, and elves which are 2 supposed positive match-ups for this deck.
Has anyone tried this set-up before? How was it?
Thanks for your inputs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bum_man
Thanks! That is a good point you make. I honestly did not think of cutting any card from the maindeck so far, but your argument makes sense. :smile:
The 3rd equipment got cut in favour of the 3rd True Name Nemesis, since I wanted an additional hard to remove threat against D&T, Miracles and other Delver decks. I didn't miss the 3rd equipment at all to be honest. Most of the time I would go for Jitte/Batterskull anyways so I feel there is no real need for more. However, if I would play the 3rd Sword, it would be SoFaI.
Regarding the Elves MU, I would recommend playing the full set of Meddling Mages. As a former Elves player myself, I can tell you that Meddling Mage is much worse to play against than Canonist is for the following reasons:
a) Canonist does not prevent Natural Order, which is enemy #1 against Elves.
b) Since UWR Delver plays so much removal Elves will board out big parts of their Glimpse combo, in most cases it will probably only leave 1 Heritage Druid in while also cutting down on Glimpses and Nettle Sentinels. One could argue that Canonist to a certain degree also stops Symbiote+Visionary but drawing "only" one additional card a turn is still huge so that it does not make much of a difference imo.
c) Canonist is way easier to handle than MM. In addition to 3-4 Decay (which are the only cards that get rid of MM), Elves has 4 GSZ and 1 Reclamation Sage to get rid of Canonist. If need be, they could also NO for it as well. Granted that would rather happen in cornercases but is also a possibility.
Besides that, Elves is definitely a favourable MU whatever sideboard route you choose. Early spotremoval is really the key here. Keep the board as clean as you can and than try to establish Stoneforge into Jitte in the mid-late game.
Edit: Also vs. Sneak Show, Meddling Mage is huge! Another reason to run the full playset imo. :smile:
Just like what I told you =DQuote:
Originally Posted by bum_man
I think Treasure Cruise is gonna be a broken card in UWR Delver with a single copy (maybe 2). This card fits perfectly in UWR 'cause we don't care about the graveyard as RUG/BUG Delver
It's just my guess and it's hard to know what to cut to put it in (-1 ponder?)
Honestly, the card is broken. I would play 3-4 copies. UW(r) Delver probably benefits the most from it, as unlike other Delver decks this one does not rely on the graveyard at all otherwise. If your opponent decides to attack your Cruising, those are slots that aren't doing anything about your primary line of attack.
I also think that UWR gives you access to quite powerful sideboard options, including Red Blasts and Rest in Peace which will probably be the most effective method of fighting opposing Cruises.
I've been testing a list that drops most of Red in favor of powerful White cards in the maindeck, and just relegates Red to sideboard duty. I think Bolt is great, but has tension with StP and the slower clock presented here. I also like being able to run a few Basic lands and being able to run 2 Blood Moon in the SB for some of the otherwise tougher matchups.
My suggested list to start out with:
20 lands (run a few Basic lands here, and possibly a Karakas as well)
4 Delver
4 SFM
2 TNN
1 BSkull
1 Jitte
4 StP
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 T. Cruise
2 Council's Judgement (also considered Unexpectedly Absent here)
2 Flex slots (2 Spell Pierce, 1 Clique/TNN, 1 Sword of X&Y, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth, 1 Counterspell, etc.)
You could also be greedy and cut a land for another spell, but I think running 20 makes for less mulligans.
SB:
2 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblast
2 RIP
1 G. Cage (or the 3rd RIP)
2 Blood Moon
1 Manriki Gusari
1 EExplosives / Sulfur Elemental / whatever
1 Elspeth
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pithing Needle
Or mix it up however you feel you need to.
Treasure Cruise is perfect for this deck, as it refills your hand just as you're about to run out of gas. Between SFM and StP, tribal decks are hardly an issue. And since you're playing tempo, most combo can be dispatched with easily. Hard control and midrange used to be an issue, but since Cruise helps us match them with card advantage, it's not quite as bad as it used to be -- and there are certain tools that can be hard for them to answer, such as Elspeth, Clique/Karakas, etc. Elspeth in particular I like against BUG and UWr control.
I think BUG is going to be the other archetype to gain advantage from Cruise, but the problem there is that it opens itself even further to graveyard disruption. UR Delver is another option as well, but they don't have as many outs to resolved problematic permanents.
Give it a little time... I'm sure you'll all soon see how powerful Cruise really is.
I just got my Treasure Cruises. I will be playing 3 of them for testing purposes. 4 seems a bit too much imo. Currently running the regular list with -1 Pierce,-1 Ponder, -1 Swords, +3 Cruise.
So I just trimmed down some of the more flex slots and inserted 3 cruise. Will let you guys know how it goes. With this change in the md, I've swapped the RIPs in the board for Surgical extractions.
First impressions: It's ridiculously easy to fill the yard and cast the first cruise. 2nd one takes a while to cast but can be pitched to force anyway. 3 Cruises seems like a good number to me so you don't draw too many but should be able to draw at least 1 per game
I would not cut RIP. I would take "This card will kill a portion of my deck and wipe out yours" against BUG, Dredge, Oops and smack Storm over something that is as effect as a bee sting a non insignificant amount of the time.
A couple of us at the shop tonight were talking about experimenting with
Stubborn Denial
In many cases it functions the same as spell pierce...but once you get a batterskull active it becomes a powerful 1 mana hard counter. Alternatively a tnn or deliver with a jitte activation can also fulfil the ferocious req
Thoughts?
No anything that is conditional is not that great imo. It's quite the win more card. You need Pierce to defend the SFM or Delver. If you can get the batterskull down since SFM survives you should be winning already.
And people are already playing around Daze which also affects Stubborn denial. So you get caught by that. It's easy to play around 1 mana tax counters while playing around 2 mana Tax Counters is much more difficult.
Not really sold on the Treasures yet. I am sure youd want to have Ponder and/or Pierce, which are "castable" on their own as a food for FoW not just some card that seems like forever to cast (as just a food for FoW).Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Just play tested UWR Delver with Cruises against BUG Shardless. Still got crushed like 6-3. The games I won were due to drawing all 4 wastelands for the mana screw win or managing to stick a batterskull/TNN and riding it for the win.*
The sky isn't falling lol, losing to overwhelming card advantage decks like BUG still happens. Treasure cruise felt very powerful every time I casted it. Played 3 copies and never had trouble casting them. Always felt like I wanted more copies against BUG.*
May still stick to just 3 because you don't really want to see too many early. I managed to cast 2 copies multiple times easily. The card is just sick in Delver but may not be that playable in other decks.
Treasure Cruise does not magically make this deck totally overpowered but it is really good. Especially on turns 4-5 , it's absolutely fantastic.
Tested today. Used Dig as a two of. I played it once early game one, learnt my lesson really fast, use it like a Brainstorm. It is good, but it's best when used to solve a problem. I won a game by Digging for a Bolt and Plowshares, another by finding land at the eot to have a Daze resistant Batterskull. From my point of view though, if you don't need to cast it, you don't and that's the difference between it and Cruise. Ones a scalpel, the other a hammer. If your holding a Scalpel don't swing it like a hammer.
2 of felt good. Because I was not looking to use it to gain card advantage, it was not something I desperately needed so I did not spend much time wishing I had one. The moments I did though... Also, tested against that new R/U build. Fetch a Jitte and it folds. It's fast but it just can't take its main powerhouses dying to our removal and the rest get mopped up with Jitte.
What do you guys think about Relic of Progenitus replacing RIP? Relic is one sided grave hate and can keep opponents Treasure Cruises from going off while not effecting our own. Against BUG, the Relics can be blowned up at the right time to take down a Tarmogoyf. You can use it throughout the game to shrink your opponents yard while being able to cast Cruises yourself.
Played tonight, went 4/0 dropping only one game. Before I get into the games though I want to write down some of my thoughts:
On RIP.
Do not cut it. Unless you are running 4 copies of a delve card, RIP will always hurt your target more than it will hurt you. I played against Lands and BUG tonight and not once did I wish I had something that was not RIP.
On Cruise.
I have tested out the RU deck that runs it and I have seen it in action. I feel like it doesn't fit in this deck. I feel like we are looking to play less of a tempo role against many of the decks that run this card and push more the control side. For this I have found Dig to fit in very very well. The instant speed is a plus, but it's strength is the chance to look for answers. I subscribe to the idea that you do not Brainstorm unless you have to, unless you know what your looking for. I find Dig offers that same deal. You do not cast it unless you know what you want. Hold it like a Brainstorm otherwise and treat it like it's made of gold. Cruse sucks, Dig, not in the slightest bit here.
On the UR deck.
Patriot just eats it. Jitte kills them, early answers to their creatures hurts them too and counters just seal it. I played this tonight because in testing I found this deck offered the best strategy to fight the deck. I played it tonight because half the room was playing with UR Delver but I dodged the match up tonight.
My list:
Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
The reason for the Sword main was of course the expectation I would face UR. While I did not, Pro Blue did win me a match and I like the option. 3 Equipment felt really greedy though, but I feel like for whatever reason I was not punished for this choice.
Match one: DnT.
So match one is against someone I tend to lose to. He is very skilled and I do enjoy playing him. He starts the game with a Vial, I Force it and play out a Delver. He drops a Thalia, I flip the Delver, have it eat a sword and play out a Stoneforge. (Jitte) He plays out a Stoneforge, Swords my Stoneforge and attacks. I drop another Stone and fetch Batterskull. Now what happens next is a bit fuzzy, but I ended up facing a Thalia he could bounce (To stop lifelink) and a Whisp with Jitte. I top a True-Name and equip the Jitte, followed by a Dig to find two swords and it was all over.
Out:
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Force
In:
2 Grim Lavamacer
2 Clique
2 Wear
1 Verdict
1 EE
Game two is really not a fun afar for him. He had a plan of holding answers and then going to town on me, I ended up planing to play the beatdown though and dropped a Wear into a Stoneforge (Jitte) into a TNN. At this point I had more or less locked him out of the game.
Match two: BUG Control.
So this one was a bit odd. I did not know how it was going to play out as I have not had the chance to test against BUG. I have on the other hand played the deck quite a lot so that was helpful. He starts and opens with a DRS, I open trying to Swords it. We fight, I win and pass. He starts his second turn playing a second DRS. You win some... I play out Stoneforge (Skull) and pass back only to find out why he wanted that DRS so bad. He taps for a black, taps DRS and Hymn's me. So not Batterskull for me. I draw and play a Stoneforge (Jitte), it sticks and he drops a Tar Pit. He then plays a Delver and I can not do a dam thing about it. He passes back, lets me put in a Delver and then flips his Delver off a decay. Jitte now not so useful we have a little race. Him ahead thanks to some bolts he pulls. I end up a turn away from death with one Stoneforge untapped. He decides to in anger Decay the tapped Delver that had been causing him issues over the untapped blocker and loses the match.
Out:
4 Daze
2 Dig
In:
2 Lavamancer
2 Clique
2 RIP
Game two was quite easy. He opens with DRS and I try to Bolt it. I lose the counter war and pass. He drops a Goyf and passes. I drop SFM (Batterskull) and then take two from his Goyf. (Land and Instant only) He drops Shardless and flips another Goyf, I then top RIP. He was pissed, the Skull hits the table, followed by a Clique and that's all she wrote.
Match 3: Lands.
I was expecting this to be harder than it was, but that said it was still fun. I get to open and fake Miracles. (A deck I am known to play of late.) I Tundra into a Ponder and pass. He trys to play a Mox Diamond, I Daze it. He then drops a taped land and passes back. I play out a land, and pass. He plays Exploration, I Piece it. Here is where things get fun. He drops Maze and I Stoneforge (Batterskull). I am forced to play the Maze game until he drops a Glacial Chasm. I Dig, pull two Wastelands and that's all she wrote.
Out:
3 Daze
4 Swords
In:
2 Clique (For the clock, I am planing to play Beatdown)
2 Wear
1 EE
2 RIP
Game 2 I mull for 5 and was never really in this one. He wins after Loam locking me with Wasteland and leaving me with just a Stoneforge on the table to show for my efforts. He pulls out the 20/20 in response to one of my attacks (I think the fourth one) and leaves me with nothing on the table. We joke about it as we move to the last game.
Last game I do not remember much of besides that I again did not find RIP, I Dug for a Waste and it again got me past a Maze. I had lethal on board if it had not been for the maze and the Waste pulled at the end of his turn really helped.
Last match: Tezzerator
Oh dear god was this a long match. The start of it was a battle of attrition, counters and removal keeping his side of the board clear while a recurring EE did the same on my side. He left me with a choice early, fight the EE or fight the Ensnaring Bridge. I let him wipe me over and over since the only pressure he had was a Thopter Foundry and he had not the mana to use it. Drawing a timely Wasteland for his Academy Ruins stopped this fight and left me with the option of playing out some Delvers. His answer was to make Thopters and play out a Baleful Strix again leaving me with nothing. My only saving grace had been the amount of damage he had done to himself with his Ancient Tomb's. This meant that at one point his life was at 1 and to use Force (First on a Dig, second on a drawn Batterskull) he was sacking his mana artifacts and leaving himself ever dead on board with Mana. He had Tombs he could not longer tap and his land count dwindled under Wastelands. The tipping point came when he drew a Jace and started fatesealing me. He put a card on the bottom (TNN I found out later) and the card I drew was my only Stoneforge for the match. I go and got Sword of Fire and Ice and hard cast it onto the table. He bounces the Stoneforge so I do not kill him next turn. I play it, fetch Jitte and equip the Sword. He then try's to gain as much life as he can but then remembers the 2 damage that Fire does on the sword. His Thopters are Blue and he can not block so he coincides. The match took 45 minutes, 10 of which I sat with nothing but a Daze in hand and lands on the table. What a match.
Final thoughts:
I like the control side of this deck, drawing three is not as good for playing control as looking at seven and picking the best two. Also the option of saving up your mana for counters and just casting it at the end of your opponents turn really can not be underestimated. Against UR, I think my list is about where it should be. Jitte just kills them, Sword I feel might be a bit overkill though. But a Sword on a Batterskull means you can not be blocked and they can not attack on the ground. While this might seam like a pipe dream, looking for what you need on the top seven cards means that you can really push that line if needed.
I feel like in the end your choice of the two new cards will come down to how you wish to play. If you are a control player, Dig wins out but if you really like to push Tempo then Cruise does. Still I feel like there are better decks for Cruise and Dig really does have a home here.
Lastly, Dig and RIP can coexist in the deck. RIP just hoses some decks and Dig can always be pitched or placed back with Brainstorm. I do not think Grim and Dig can though and any time I would bring in Grim, I would cut Dig.
Dice.