You'll love the Junk route once you drop Turn 2 Rhino.
-Matt
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You'll love the Junk route once you drop Turn 2 Rhino.
-Matt
Rhino is s beast but I like the turn 2 Thragtusk better :cool:
Completely independent on grave, blocks small dudes like a champ, negates life loss (Delver beats, etc.), worsens their AdN. Cannot touch PWs, but might be thrown against them. Higher creature count. GSZ. What else? :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
There's not really a specific deck I lose to, Legacy in my area isn't all that big, we only play every couple months. What I'm more concerned with is having answers if I go to bigger tournaments, being in Ohio we get a lot of SCG Opens and such that aren't that difficult to travel to. I don't have the BUG Pod version built yet, I'm looking at putting it together in order to get into Legacy. I suppose it's possible that Pod isn't the deck to be playing but it's what I play in Modern, and I've played Pod competitively since it was printed, plus I enjoy it so I thought it would make a good Legacy deck (I also have Burn and UR Delver... without FoW). I realize that I eventually need the FoWs and sooner or later that will happen but I'm looking more for the next say 6-12 months until I have them. I could use Swan Song I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Edit: I like Trinket Mage, I see most are using Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle. Is there any value in adding Chalice of the Void and Nihil Spellbomb?
Gonna take the 4SR out for a spin. Taking in account that i really NEED to play the 3Vet/4DRS setup i came up with the following list:
61deck
3Veteran Explorer
4Deathrite Shaman
1Gaddock Teeg
1Scavenging Ooze
1Courser of Kruphix
1Eternal Witness
4Siege Rhino
1Sigarda, Host of Herons
1Thragrusk
3Sensei's Divining Top
4Green Sun's Zenith
4Cabal Therapy
3Pernicious Deed
3Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1Maelstrom Pulse
1Recurring Nightmare
4Verdant Catacomb
4Windswepth Heath
2Bayou
2Savannah
1Scrubland
2Forest
2Swamp
2Plains
1Karakas
1Phyrexian Tower
1Volrath's Stronghold
15deck
2Carpet of Flowers
2Thoughtseize
2Extirpate
2Containment Priest
2Spirit of the Labyrinth
1Ethersworn Canonist
1Golgari Charm
1Toxic Deluge
1Krosan Grip
1Choke
As for the board i am also thinking to cut the hatebears for 3rd TS, 3rd Extirpate and 3 Liliana. But i figured that combo the hatebears put pressure to. Also gonna try Choke instead of the 3rd Carpet of Flowers.
If your comfortable playing Birthing Pod then it would be the better choice to enter Legacy. Knowing how to interact with the rest of the Legacy decks ia more important then playing the most streamlined list. Build with what you got and play, play, play and then tune and invest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The BUG list really wants you to invest in the expensive duals and fows. In the end if you are going to play blue tempo/control then it is good. But if you want to stay on aggro/hatebears then maybe investing in Junk might be better for your wallet.
In the end getting to know the format is more important then what to play with yourself. Offcourse if you buy into your deck and dont like it then you can always trade it into another deck.
Unless you have a 100% win rate against Delver decks, playing less than 4 Decays is wrong.
Path to Exile is complete garbage compared to StP.
Well Swords to Plowshares kinda negates the etb effect from Siege Rhino (to some point). There might be an error to "allow" your opponent to search for another basic (next to vet). With your reasoning i can see a 4/2 split between Abrupt Decay and Swords. Having that said, most Delver decks (outside of UR) have a greedy manabase with 0 basics which makes Path to Exile even more effecient then Swords to Plowshares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Hi guys,
Lured by the promise of a different game-play I bring punishing nic fit to the geneva legacy 4.
Game-play-wise it delivered, it was a blast to play, it came back from nowhere, did dominate the ground with bigger/better beaters, but was a tad slow for the tournament (it didn't help that the opponents had to read cards).
I bring HoneysT list with a courser of kuphrix instead of baloth.
I went 3-2 drop because the tournament started late, and I had work in the morrow (and a 2 years old daughter I still had to bath and feed).
The match ups :
First round vs khis (team mate) playing sylvanplug
It always sucks to play teammates, but as I know his deck, I knows he never stood a chance (he never saw it coming).
My first turn cabal remove 2 trinisphere, my follow up deed wreck his board and top + courser is cool beans.
Game 2 is a bit more interesting (with actual plays from him) but the trample from wolf run is too good on a thrun.
2/0
match 1-0
Round 2 vs JB playing blue stax (foil Japanese with signed beta islands).
Game 1 I scoop fast against his turn 2 trini, turn 3 stax, turn 4 chalice on 1 .
Game 2 I make a misplay boarding out punishing fire. He makes a shady play, hiding his trini beneath another card (and refusing any take back) and I slowly die against a jace protected by crucible + mishra.
0/2
match 1-1
Round 3 vs robin playing 4 color loam (luckily I evade batman)
Game 1 he has the nuts, so has I :-) In the first turns I kill 2 reliquary, a goyf a bob and a liliana while being wasted twice ! primeval titan hit for 12 damages and takes the game.
Game 2 In goes the grave hate, I slaughter his reliquary, extract his goyf and sail smooth. He never saw a loam in 2 games or things would have been different.
2/0
Match 2-1
Round 4 vs patrique playing MUD
Artifact based control vs pernicious deed...
Game one he has crucible plus waste and I have 5 basics by turn 3 :-)
Game 2 is the same I utterly destroy him.
2/0
match 3-1
Round 5 Sebatien with patriot blade
Game 1 I fail to destroy batterskull in a timely manner and he finish me with jitte+nemesis.
Game 2 I'm mana screwed, I kept a hand of GSZ, explorer, liliana, deed, forest, taiga and wolfrun... after 2 swords for my explorer and greensuned explorer, I die slowly.
0/2
match 3-2
Then my boss call me to know if I intend to bath our daughter and I decide to go home.
The deck was great, without misplay on my part I could have had a better result but it demands a faster pace. (but my pairings were strange, 4 chalice decks and only one true blue deck)
Courser plus top was the nuts!
I'll try the rhino variant from now on because of the higher threat density but will miss punishing fire and wolf run.
Not sure if you're serious here or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
In this deck, they're already searching out all their basics, so it becomes "W: remove it, good bye"
As an added bonus, they also don't gain any life.
-Matt
I'm a big fan of night of soul's betrayal in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Pathing any of these is asking for a lot more trouble than a couple of life points:
-anything in UR Delver at any stage in the game.
-any mana dork on t1
-anything in Elves
-anything at any point against DnT
-anything at any point against Goblins
-any merfolk at any point
-any manland (mishra in pox)
-any Clique or Snapcaster at any point against Miracles
-T1 Mom in any decks with a basic land
Lets not forget how PtE is also a free shuffler in the Brainstorm format.
Now I am the one wondering if you are serious about validating the lava spike on ur 4 CMC 4/5 trampler at the cost of potentially losing card advantage AND tempo in the great Delver/Goyf format.
Unless you find yourself exiling more Marrit Lages than anything else, giving your opponents an insignificant amount of life is almost always better than a free rampant growth
I'm not going to say anything about the life total part, because it's so minor, and I agree, most of the time, the life doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I've found many times I'm blowing Explorer prior to most Paths, so the Paths basically become free. That's my experience. In my meta, Sneak is making a big comeback, so I'm still on the Path train and will be. I will say many times, I do agree Swords is better, but I'm on Path right now.
Has anyone tried to build Junk Pod? The biggest issue I've noticed with the BUG version is in creature density, you need to remove creatures for Pod, then for Cabal Therapy, then for Trinket Mage targets, then for Brainstorm, and then there's Deed/Recurring Nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
In the previous NicFit thread there has been some solid discussion about which is the better version of POD and what the right mix between POD and GSZ should be, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Mostly when i am building a POD list i try to run a curve with creature density using:
7-8x CMC = 1
5-7x CMC = 2
4x CMC = 3
3x CMC = 4
2x CMC = 5
0-1x CMC = 6
As for the Sword vs Path debate. I have read it and i will play it and i find out for myself if i am going to continue playing.
In a burn heavy meta id stick with plow for the utility otherwise path is perfectly reasonable im currently on 2 plow one funeral charm in the one mana removal department. Charm is never a dead card it kills most early plays you need it to has utility as an instand speed discard vs miracles or as extra discard vs storm game one one as well as being able to push threw some extra unexpected damage on a rhino or unblocked stoneforge/deathrite
I read the previous thread a few months back, though I haven't read all 41 pages of this one. Could you sum up the argument on the Pod/GSZ split? I know coming from Modern (different format and all that) there's a consensus that we wouldn't play any GSZ even if it were legal, and that deck is even more green creature focused. I see that people aren't running Dryad Arbor with GSZ, is finding Veteran Explorer with it really that good that you want to water down your Pods?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
I'm far from an expert on Legacy but something I've noticed is that 4 power seems to be the key value. It kills Batterskull, Angel tokens, in addition to a ticked up Liliana or Jace, and virtually every other creature people play other than Emrakul and Griselbrand. Is this an accurate assessment? On that note if going the Junk route Siege Rhino is obviously pretty good but has anyone ever tried to work in some Exalted to give 3 power creatures some extra oomph?
The two exalted playables in legacy hierach and pridemage are signifigantly outclassed by reclamation sage and deathrite. Sage leaves you a body to pod away and a deathrite does literally everything.
Personally id stay away from pod. There are a lot of wonky hands that will get you killed. Look at punishing scape or straight junk lists depending on your play style. Pod encourages playing cards that are indepently bad, disjoined, and situational.
Well, I was going to argue the Pridemage point because a big part of Pod in my experience (all Modern, not Legacy) is that a large portion of your power comes not just from having tutor targets, but in having those targets at multiple CMC's. 2 CMC is in many ways the key number because you have the most redundancy in mana dorks, and the highest number of draws at that cost. It's also the slot with the lowest cost to your board to upgrade into a real creature later on. All of this seems equally true in Legacy because you actively want to be sacrificing those Veteran Explorers. That said, I've thought about GSZ a bit more and it effectively covers the role of being an extra card at another CMC so Pridemage probably isn't needed. That said I did give Hierarch another look. One of the tricks with Pod prebans is that we would use Ranger of Eos to find 1 drop utility creatures, and it always had good targets just finding extra DRS's as well so I reincorporated that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
I'm not so sure about independly bad cards, that could be the case but I just need to see it for myself I suppose. My viewpoint I'm coming at it from is seeing what works in other formats, and then upgrading cards when available. That said, my only Legacy interaction in the past 4-5 years has been Burn (which I've done quite well with), and this deck attacks on a much different angle so that experience doesn't help. In the next few weeks one of the local stores is going to start doing weekly tournaments with Wastelands as the prize for first (and full proxies so anyone can play anything) so I want something decent but fairly rogue to attend with and this falls into the range of what I've done very well with in other formats, plus as a bonus I have most of the cards already.
Anyways I put together a Junk Pod list earlier if anyone would be kind enough to critique and tell me what I left out. Most notable is that I saw no reason to run Pernicious Deed so I'll just defend that statement upfront by saying the creature count is high here, and the creatures do things. It doesn't seem like the board would be well positioned for a reset unlike in some of the other builds. Also I went with 5 sac outlets and 5 ways to get Explorer. Should I go higher? At 5/5 it's only a 18% chance to have both but at 7/7 it's a 40% chance to have both in the opening hand.
So here's the list (reminder: new to Legacy)
21 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 28
1 Mother of Runes
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Ranger of Eos
2 Restoration Angel
1 Siege Rhino
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
Spells 7
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
Artifact 4
4 Birthing Pod
Well the findings where that more GSZ leads to more consistent plays/openings. Also 3 Birthing Pod was to be the most correct number. Some people played the lost at the most effecient way possible, with 4 GSZ, 3 POD and very few creatures and more focussed spells (4 Cabal THerapy, 4 Abrupt Decay and 4 Thoughtseize for example to fight in a combo heavy meta), which leaded to better reults. But this also demands that you know the meta from the inside out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I would play GSZ for Veteran Explorer over GSZ for Dryad Arbor any day. Imagine opening with T1 Cabal Therapy and T2 GSZ for Veteran Explorer, flashing Therapy and getting Forest + Swamp for Abrupt Decay (or with Junk for plains and play Stoneforge Mystic or Baleful Strix in BUG).
Exalted sounds nice and all, but you really do not want to rely on having more creatures on the board that "need" each other. If Exalted is your thing, then you need to build a deck around it to power this out. With POD you saccing one for ones anyway. You want creatures that are good on their own each filling out a different role. Where Linvala shuts down Elves, Orzhov takes care of True-Name Nemesis and Reclamation Sage takes care of Batterskull, etc. For this reason i would also stay away from Voice of Resurgence as your CMC 2 drop. Junk offers Stoneforge Mystic. Ones it gets Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull you can sac SFM for POD anyway. (Endstep dig up SFM, dig up equip, untap, drop equip and fetch a 3 drop). Batterskull vs Batterskull is always better then a X/X that relies on the rest of the board.
Agreed. Reclamation Sage has a better synergy with POD. Deathrite Shaman does so many things. He is one drop, so potentially a T1 play, which happens to be a mana dork. Also it can keep the opponents grave clean (Dredge, Delve), while also being a clock on itself. Gives you extra life vs burn, UR or to counteract POD activations a bit, etc. People just sometimes do stupid things just to get rid of it giving you some room to do bigger/better stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
POD can be really wonky, clunky, slow and whatnot. But that does not change the fact that POD is a really awesome card and lets you do crazy stuff. For me, i would really enjoy playing a deck like this while getting into legacy and learn the format this way knowing that i would win anything at this point anyway. If you want to play something rogue, then Punishing Fire, Scapewish or Junk Nic Fit is probably better. At least it's more consistant.
As for your list, i will make a few comments, but know that ultimately you just have to put it together and play it to get a feel of it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
As for lands, Volrath's Stronghold adds value on the longgame and combined with Phyrexian Tower it does crazy shit. Karakas is a good investment on the long run and a second Bayou isn't bad either. I would cut the Flats for those cards and maybe a Heath. Being able to find Forests is the most important part of the fetchlands.
Ok so you have 10x 1 CMC, 4x 2 CMC, 5x 3 CMC, 6x 4 CMC and 3x 5 CMC. i Would say that you have a very big risk you mess up your own curve while trying to POD to bigger answers. Especcially in you CMC 2 range a total of 4 is asking for trouble. 2 CMC is propably the most important CMC since you will often be starting from there. Plus in Junk you have acces to Stoneforge Mystic which serves a huge role in assembling board presence (Batterskull, Jitte).
So yeah Voice of Resurgence is outclassed by Stoneforge Mystic. Batterskull wins games on its own, while Jitte is really important vs pretty much every deck relying on critters.
Also having 2 of the same creatures is not required either, unless 1CMC and 2CMC. Do not overlook Thragtusk. Getting one on the board often gets me out of range of losing just long enough to take over the game. It has effect NOW when it hits the board.
And consider Gaddock Teeg as he can stop a number of important cards in Legacy. Terminus, Force of Will, Green Sun's Zenith (Elves), Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Tendrill's of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Dread Return, Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time.
Last, do not underestimate the importance of non creature business. Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, Pernicious Deed, Swords to Plowshares, etc. I would try to get a mix of 8 of those spells mainboard to have answers to situations i can't solve with POD or GSZ.
Edit: an important aspect of the list is that it should be able to function without an active POD.