[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

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Originally Posted by Volt

I would like to see this build of Thresh that "completely owned" Meat Hooks. It most certainly must be a non-standard build. Pinder mentioned Engineered Explosives and Divert (!) which are not typical maindeck or even sideboard options for most Thresh decks. I think Mav was also running maindeck Meddling Mages.

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Here's my current thresh build, it beat slivers seven games in a row:

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Divert*

4 Brainstorm
4 serum Visions
4 Mental Note

SB--------------------
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Divert*
2 Krosan Grip*
3 Armageddon
3 Dueling Grounds*
4 Pithing Needle

*These are some new card choices I'm testing for my specific metagame; which includes several variations of counterbalance (hence the grips) and various black disruption decks. Dueling Grounds is my new experimental tech against gobs.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 forest

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Divert*

4 Brainstorm
4 serum Visions
4 Mental Note

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Yeah, I can see how this build would beat slivers, although 7 in a row was probably a bit of an anomaly.

I tested TES vs UWg Counterslivers today (Agro Zombies was the pilot) for a little bit and went 4-0 pre board. While some of the games were close, the matchup was definately in TES's favor. Post board we only played 2 games, slivers winning both. The post board games are a terrible sample though... as in retrospec I played 1 game horribly, and the other game I was mana screwed, 1 mana source away from the stonecold nuts. Frankly, mages really don't help that much against TES. You can name 1 of 2 win conditions then get rolled by the other, 1 of 3 tutors and sometimes really screw your opponent, or you can name 1 of 10984203 accelerants, which can, once again, sometimes completely screw your opponent. Both the post board games slivers did get down a mage (naming LED both times), but it never made any significant difference. Stifles can be irritating, but don't help against a 1st turn xantid.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Volt

Yeah, I can see how this build would beat slivers, although 7 in a row was probably a bit of an anomaly.

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It was. Even though that particular list was tough already, this was further exacerbated by the fact that in all 7 games, I didn't draw Crystalline until turn 7-8ish. If I had gotten one down early, then I would have been able to ignore his targeted removal and concentrated on stopping EE, but having to counter his swords as well as trying to keep his beats off of me and worry about EE was just a pain.

And it should also be kept in mind that we didn't sideboard during any of those games.

I've played vs TES a few times so far and it's not that bad. If you've never played against TES before, you're probably going to lose the first handful of games. TES is very resilient but it's still a combo deck.

The biggest thing to keep in mind against TES is that you can't board out you're creature removal... Confidant is extremely strong for them and Xantid Swarm will render your countermagic useless. Other than that, it's aggro/control vs combo.

You Force the draw spell or tutor they needed and beatdown while you can. You can't really fizzle them completely since they have many ways to bounce back, but it's not hard to win the tempo war and beatdown for the win.

Meddling Mages are strong if you know what to name and you can always sideboard Stifles and Duresses if you feel you need more strength.

Personally, I've found it to be around 50/50 preboard (because you usually won't know that it's combo right away in game 1) which changes to about a 60/40 postboard.

If they have Defense Grid, you have Harmonic Sliver. If they have Xantid Swarm, you have StP. I'd be more worried about discard, personally.

The board plan I used vs TES:

-2 Crystalline Sliver
-2 Hibernation Sliver
-3 Winged Sliver
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Stifle

I didn't really have too many problems postboard... Meddling Mage won't always be useful but it still helps, I tried naming off the draw/tutor spells that I had seen game 1 with my Mages. If you have 2 Mages in hand, you can simply go EtW Tendrils to cut them off of win conditions. Otherwise, it's better to name off a draw/tutor and counter the other one. StP answers Xantid, Harmonic Sliver (or leaving 3 open with Fow/Daze) answers Defense Grid. You have to eat Duress though. Dark Confidant is probably the worst thing you can see postboard if you don't have an answer to it. As long as your clock is good though, and you see at least 1-2 pieces of disruption, you should be able to win. If they try to fast combo you, they often fall on their face. If they slow combo you, you have to hope your clock is fast enough or they will out resource you. This is all from my experiences though.

If Threshold with 2 EE's is a hard matchup, board Stifles. If you wanna get seriously techy, board Loaming Shamans. I haven't ran into any Threshold decks with maindeck Engineered Explosives and the one time I did see EE in a postboard, I managed to Force + Counterspell it. If you're REALLY worried about EE, run Hibernation Slivers. I don't see this problem being a huge metagame issue, at least not right now.

I'm also not understanding why people think the decks hardest matchups are Threshold and TES. These are hardly what you have to worry about. In fact, I find my Threshold matchup pretty good... game 1 is a war of early game tempo with the winner winning the matchup most of the time. This can go either way, which is about 50/50 from testing so far. Post board, Talon Slivers deal with the largest issue... being able to play defense early game while their guys outsize you (and they will outsize you). Being able to survive the early beatdown is crucial... and if you do, you'll usually win. However, I'm finding Survival out of the board to be a house against Threshold... Threshold runs no card advantage and card advantage is king in the mirror. I also don't find TES that bad. It's the hardest combo matchup, but it's still combo... if you know how to pilot aggro/control vs combo and you know about TES, you won't be getting steamrolled.

The hardest matchup that I've come across so far is board control. MWC, Landstill, whatever. Anything that runs a healthy amount of mass removal and card advantage is difficult.

I also want to somehow fit Stifles back into my sideboard but I really want Survival in there. I'll do more playtesting and figure out what I'd rather have.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Personally, I've found it to be around 50/50 preboard (because you usually won't know that it's combo right away in game 1) which changes to about a 60/40 postboard.

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What do you mean? If they lead with Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, etc., then isnt it obvious that they are playing TES? What other (relevant) deck in legacy drops those 1st turn?

I've played against alot of randomness on MWS where my opponent will play a City of Brass and it will not be TES. I suppose in a large tournament setting this won't be the case but I'm sure there will still be some randomness at GP Columbus that will use City of Brass and won't be TES. The same can be applied to Gemstone Mine is some cases.

Another thing too is that you may figure out that they are playing TES after they drop the first land but you may keep a hand that can't handle combo based on the fact that you didn't mulligan correctly because you didn't know what you were playing before the game started.

However, I think I wrote down my sideboard plan a little incorrectly because I think I brought in 2 Harmonic Slivers in a few postboard games (I think I dropped 2 Crystallines for them).

Yes, TES can be a bit of a problem, but I wasn't sure how to board against it initially since it's so resilient and fast. However, I can say that Harmonic Sliver is definitely useful against TES for things other than Defense Grid - Chrome Mox hates it, for example. I took this deck to a small tournament today and finished second (beating Kronicler 2-1). I only lost to Goblins in the finals because he drew the one card in his deck that could possibly stop me...I had lethal damage on the board but was at three life, and he has a Mogg Fanatic (tapped) and no cards in hand. If he drew anything other than Siege-Gang Commander, it was all over. But guess what he draws...and I had no Force to stop it. *frown* However, this deck definitely eats Goblins alive. Even if they get the God Draw (which has happened against me before), you can stabilize in late game and build your forces until you can make a lethal assault in one attack. It's great to see Gobs players suicidally sending waves of guys at you to try to push damage through, only to have 90% of their little green men eaten alive. One question I have is what this deck's plan for Burn is. I realize that Crystalline stops Burn from killing your guys, but that doesn't seem so hot when all that burn gets pointed at you instead. Someone always shows up to a tournament with Burn around here, so I was wondering if maybe a few Worships wouldn't be good for the board...it would also help against lucky Goblins players like the one that did me in this afternoon. =/

Hehe, grats again AZ. You straight up handed my ass to me on a silver plater games 2 and 3! But yeah, the goblins matchup seems amazing, the combo match is fine post board, thresh seems good as well (w/o EE).... wtf does this deck lose to?? Hmmm..... time to break down my combo deck and make slivers I think :cool: .

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

Hehe, grats again AZ. You straight up handed my ass to me on a silver plater games 2 and 3! But yeah, the goblins matchup seems amazing, the combo match is fine post board, thresh seems good as well (w/o EE).... wtf does this deck lose to?? Hmmm..... time to break down my combo deck and make slivers I think :cool: .

Kronicler

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It loses to Pox and BoardControl.dec. Anything with lots of nonbasic land hate or lots of mass removal will rape you.

And thank you.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Yes, TES can be a bit of a problem, but I wasn't sure how to board against it initially since it's so resilient and fast. However, I can say that Harmonic Sliver is definitely useful against TES for things other than Defense Grid - Chrome Mox hates it, for example. I took this deck to a small tournament today and finished second (beating Kronicler 2-1). I only lost to Goblins in the finals because he drew the one card in his deck that could possibly stop me

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What did your list, board look like?

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

One question I have is what this deck's plan for Burn is. I realize that Crystalline stops Burn from killing your guys, but that doesn't seem so hot when all that burn gets pointed at you instead. Someone always shows up to a tournament with Burn around here, so I was wondering if maybe a few Worships wouldn't be good for the board...it would also help against lucky Goblins players like the one that did me in this afternoon. =/

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The matchup against burn has been brought up before, and it is a little bad because they have no choice but to point all of their burn at you. Mav and I find that typically you have to treat it a lot like a combo deck at that point, and try to race. We find that whenever they beat you, they usually beat you by one turn. I run already run Worship as a 2-of in my board for this express purpose. And it's not so bad against Gobs either.

Oh, and as a side note: Typically it's good to side in 1-2 Harmonic against Burn, as they will likely be siding in Pyrostatic Pillar (if they're not maindecking it). Pyrostatic Pillat = no fun for us.

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

wtf does this deck lose to??

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Originally Posted by Aggro Zombies

It loses to Pox and BoardControl.dec. Anything with lots of nonbasic land hate or lots of mass removal will rape you.

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Say hello to Truffle Shuffle, arguably our worst matchup.

But yeah, any sort of heavy control (Landstill is not really fun fior us either, but doable) or nontargeted removal (Pox, anyone?), or even heavy discard is sort of bad for us.

In essence, things with black in them, because they can also bring in Engineered Plague from the side.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

In essence, things with black in them, because they can also bring in Engineered Plague from the side.

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Engineered Plague is kinda crappy against slivers. With 8 muscle and 4 plated (and harmonic in the board) EP's power is way lower than say against goblins.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Engineered Plague is kinda crappy against slivers. With 8 muscle and 4 plated (and harmonic in the board) EP's power is way lower than say against goblins.

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It still makes them alot easier to deal with, and when supplemented with some kind of mass removal (I run plague and pyroclasm in my fish build) it can make the matchup manageable.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Engineered Plague is kinda crappy against slivers. With 8 muscle and 4 plated (and harmonic in the board) EP's power is way lower than say against goblins.

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You have a point there. I haven't really done much testing against EP post Planar Chaos, and you're probably right. We're a lot more resilient now with 12 maindeck ways to increase toughness.

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Originally Posted by sammiel

(I run plague and pyroclasm in my fish build)

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Pyroclasm does next to nothing against us anymore. If we have any combination of 2 Plated, Muscle, or Sinew out, pyroclasm doesn't do anything. It's actually one of the reasons that Plated made it into the main in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

You have a point there. I haven't really done much testing against EP post Planar Chaos, and you're probably right. We're a lot more resilient now with 12 maindeck ways to increase toughness.



Pyroclasm does next to nothing against us anymore. If we have any combination of 2 Plated, Muscle, or Sinew out, pyroclasm doesn't do anything. It's actually one of the reasons that Plated made it into the main in the first place.

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I said plague AND pyroclasm. I never said it was some magical sliver killing machine, I just said it made it workable.

I'll concede that it would be hard to deal with a resolved pyroclasm under a plague or two.

Out of curiousity, does anyone have any pox MU data?
I think with the 8 Muscle Sliver count I think your game against it would be MUCH better. But wouldnt early game LD become a bit of a problem in the long run? Dunno, I'm a fan of the build and I hope you go all the way with it.

Second, with the whole Epic Storm thing.
Couldnt you put something in like Rule of Law or Arcane Labratory to help out with that? In my opinion that would also help out with the Solidarity MU as well. And do you have any Solidarity MU data?

Pox is baaaaaad. 8 pump slivers don't help much when all your land is gone, and all their removal is non-targeted (Pox, Smallpox); coupled with discard, it's such a tough match.

The problem with those cards is that they're not threats. They're good SB cards against combo if you're playing control, but if you're aggro, you want to keep applying pressure, hence the popularity of Meddling Mage, True Believer, Glowrider, etc.

I think I'm the only one still playing 4 Stifles main... :tongue:

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Pox is baaaaaad. 8 pump slivers don't help much when all your land is gone, and all their removal is non-targeted (Pox, Smallpox); coupled with discard, it's such a tough match.

The problem with those cards is that they're not threats. They're good SB cards against combo if you're playing control, but if you're aggro, you want to keep applying pressure, hence the popularity of Meddling Mage, True Believer, Glowrider, etc.

I think I'm the only one still playing 4 Stifles main... :tongue:

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I think you are too, but it's more a matter of choice, really. Daze and Stifle are both reall great cards.

As for the Pox matchup, the fact that all of their removal (that I can think of) is non-targeted is really annoying. It's probably a good idea to side out Crystalline altogether, and board in Mages to name Pox and LD. The LD is also bad for us. Wasteland + Sinkhole = them killing our nonbasics and basics.

From what little data I've been able to collect (playing against Beebles, ironically), the best strategy I can think of is to keep exactly 2-3 slivers on the table, and hold the rest. That way, regardless of whether the pox is large or small, you'll still only be saccing 1 creature to it. Then you can replace it with one in your hand. This also lets you keep cards to pad you hand so you can keep the important spells in against Pox. You only need 2-3 to be able to swing for 4-5 a turn, and that's a decent enough clock, especially if you can keep it going through Poxes. A table:

• 1 Creature: Sac 1, 0 Left
• 2 Creatures: Sac 1, 1 Left
• 3 Creatures: Sac 1, 2 Left
• 4 Creatures: Sac 2, 2 Left
• 5 Creatures: Sac 2, 3 Left
• 6 Creatures: Sac 2, 4 Left
• 7 Creatures: Sac 3, 4 Left
• 8 Creatures: Sac 3, 5 Left
• 9 Creatures: Sac 3, 6 Left
• 10 Creatures: Sac 4, 6 Left

Oh, and Plated is great in this matchup. The toughness boost is largely irrelevant, but having a cheap, easily replacable sliver to sac so you don't have to sac your Crystallines or Muscle/Sinew (arguably the two you want to see most) is pretty good.

As for the Solidarity matchup, Volt did some testing with earlier lists and found that it was about even preboard, and after boarding it was around 70/30 because of Mage. Of course, this was when we still ran maindeck Stifles, so our preboard matchup may have worsened (or gotten better now that we have a better clock) our postboard will likely stay much the same.