[Deck] Death and Taxes

@ Goldmeadow Harrier
Back in the days when Countertop was everywhere and Landstill was popular I played Elvish Hexhunter as 1-drop.
The guy was good because he hits the board berfore they land Counterbalance or Standstill, so they need to deal with puny 1/1 before they can play their best cards.
Goldmeadow Harrier does the same thing, only to creatures (much more common than enchantments). The key is that he becomes a pain in their ass as early as turn 1.
Other 1-drops that proven to be at least decent for this deck and not requre big retool (like Weathered Wayfarer):
a. Figure of Destiny
b. Isamaru, Hound of Konda
a) Finn's list runs 8 colorless lands and 4 of them are Rishadan Ports. This means that we have things to do with our mana and the situation "oops, not enough :w: to abuse Figure" is not rare.
b) 2/2 is not impressive in Legacy right now, but Dog can endlessly fog 1 attacker with Karakas' help. Oh, but Goldmeadow Harrier can do just the same thing for better price! You don't need Karakas, just land that can tap for :w:. But Harrier also helps other creatures to pass lone huge blockers. This moment becomes very important because one very good thing happened: Stoneforge Mystic. Now DnT has access to 4 Jittes, 4 SoFaI and 4 SoLaS all maindeck, thus every small creature can become a threat and the ability to connect eqips to opp's face is very relevant.
So IMHO Harrier does very good things and fits the spirit of the deck.
@ Meekstone (I haven't tested this yet, just some theory)
Think of it: You play against Zoo. He: Land, Nacatl. You: Land, Mom or Harrier. He: Land, Qasali, Attack. You: Meekstone. Now he has 2 awful choices: destroy Meekstone with Qasali (he plays against deck full of Vials and Equips) or just stop attacking (i.e. screw the gameplan). Now add Harrier here... I guess your Zoo opponent's face will be very sad after he realizes that he must spent his Qasalies and removal on 1-costed artifacts and puny 1/1 dudes.
Now, the latest paranoia-generator, Reanimator. Same scenario: Turn 1 Harrier, Turn 2 Meekstone. Their Ionas and Leviathans suddenly becomes not so scary so you should have enough time to win.
Of cource Meekstone is only good with Harrier dudes, but the combined effect of the two 1-costed cards looks truely assraping against so much decks! I'm dying to test the hell out of this!

EDIT: Meekstone + Burrenton Forge-Tender/Children of Korlis = fuck the hydra with 1-costed cards and both dudes are good targets for that 4 Sword of Light and Shadow we have in maindeck.
Also, if you have Vial@3, Meekstone and some tapped Grunts or dudes with Swords, flash in Flickerwisp at the beginning of the opp's end step to untap your guys. Meekstone will return to play at the beginning of your end step, so opp's creatures will not untap.

The initial question was: do we really needmore 1CC spells? The corollary question was isn't it better to play 2CC or 3CC creatures that do much more?

This deck does not fear Iona at all (4 Karakas, 4 Vials, equipements, ...). Weathered Wayfarer is as good as Harrier at beating Iona (far better I'd say, since it would allow you to play spells). In clusion of WW would only lead to -3plains +3Flagstones of Trokair. But once more, I was not considering replacing Harrier with WW but with Canonist or Aven Mindcensor.

Actually I don't like Meekstone because sword equipped creatures won't untap anymore, so is Jotun. Retribution of the Meek looks far more definitive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

The initial question was: do we really needmore 1CC spells? The corollary question was isn't it better to play 2CC or 3CC creatures that do much more?

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In version with 4 Ports - yes, 'case we want to use Ports to deny mana, so we need lower curve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

This deck does not fear Iona at all (4 Karakas, 4 Vials, equipements, ...).
Weathered Wayfarer is as good as Harrier at beating Iona (far better I'd say, since it would allow you to play spells). In clusion of WW would only lead to -3plains +3Flagstones of Trokair. But once more, I was not considering replacing Harrier with WW but with Canonist or Aven Mindcensor.

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@ Weathered Wayfarer
Harrier does one thing Wayfarer can't: tap blockers to win the race. Other than that, Wayfarer shiftes gameplan to more control role thus it heavily changes the gameplan.
@ Canonist
Canonist > Harrier against Storm, Harrier > Canonist against everything with (big) creatures.
@ Mindcensor
There is one thing about this guy: He is insanely effective if your deck can cast him on turn two. If there is a way in DnT to do it(Ancient Tomb in Port's place?), then he will be brilliant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

Actually I don't like Meekstone because sword equipped creatures won't untap anymore, so is Jotun. Retribution of the Meek looks far more definitive.

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Equipped dudes can be an issue, but we have some solutions: Jitte's effect lasts until end of turn, Serra Avenger has Vigilance, Flickerwisp can untap dudes, in mid-late game (when we have plenty of mana) we can attack and reequip Sword to untapped Mom.
The main reason why I think Meekstone will be good is that it hoses same things as Tariff/Retribution AND also kicks Zoo for just 1 mana.

You both make valid points here.

Canonist is pretty close to game if it lands in game 1 versus ANT. I think they typically have a single out to her and they are slowed down plenty just to get it. But it is little more than a bear in a lot of games. I love Aven Mindcensor. It rocks the house against fetchlands with Ports in the deck, but it still always seems to be a turn late against ANT. I have not tried it against Reanimator since Entomb has been unbanned, and it is pretty nasty against Progenitals. But we have some pretty good outs to Prog even without Mindcensor coming in. And it's crap against aggro.

Between Children of Korlis and Burrenton Forge-Tenders, there really are a lot of handy things you can do with Sword of Light and Shadow getting them back every turn.

Karakas simply being in the deck is not enough to relax against Iona at all. I have lost some games to her when I don't happen to have it out in time. Now, I have breezed through plenty others since none of their other creatures are nearly as hard to deal with. But the losses do happen. With her appearing prominently in no fewer than 3 major decks, we would be crazy not to have some sort of additional defense. Harriers may be enough, and I would play them even without Meekstone. But then they may not be. We can't rightly know until we have tested though.

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Originally Posted by eq.firemind

AND also kicks Zoo for just 1 mana.

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I bet you wish it would.
However they have pridemages if they really need to get rid of it.
Apes still untap, Pridemages untap, 2/2 nacatls still untap, Mancers still untap.
Lynx just laughs about that thing.
The only thing that does not untap are the goyfs or the big cc3 hosers (when played at all).
And even then, attacking once for it's damage is usually enough for the zoo player to just finish you off with burnspells.
I don't see meekstone being any good against zoo.
The harrier -stone synergie might look cute, but the harrier will either just get shot with mancer or get exiled if it's needed at all.

I am very sceptical about the point meekstone > Zoo for 1 MANA!!11!!
It's not that simple.

€dit: Oh yeah, your examples seems so great but in reality you can't really drop Meekstone on turn 2 all day, can you?
Also whats wrong with spending removal on your selfproclaimed "key" cards?
You don't have a drawengine.
Stoneforge mystic is the only creature that actually can generate cardadvantage in your deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaD

Stoneforge mystic is the only creature that actually can generate cardadvantage in your deck.

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So do Flickerwisp and Mangara. Not even mentioning the equipment.

...and Mother of Runes.

But I think Ead is right about Meekstone being crap against Zoo. Frankly, I have had quite a time finding the right sb cards to bring in against Zoo. Harrier has been the best one by far at this point. Finks, I suppose. It only comes in against Zoo, though. And that is a real issue. The Zoo matchups is way better than it used to be, but it swings wildly depending on the mana situation.

Why not perimeter captain against agro?
Seems pretty solid against Gobo's, merfolks, zoo, EtW, and Ichorid perhaps?
2 on the board give you a sick lifeboost of 8 each time they dare to swing..

Dropping Perimeter Captain turn one against Zoo (and to a lesser extent Merfolk and Goblins) creates a barrier that they MUST deal with to proceed with the game. Dealing with it usually involves using a burn spell after you block, upon which they've wasted three points of damage on a one drop and you're at about 5 points higher life total than you would have been.

Zoo is quite popular in my playgroup so I have been trying to find effective cards. Here are some things I've learned:
Anything with toughness of four or greater is automatically good. Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers (a card I recently read about and now love), Perimeter Captain.
Anything that gains you life is great. Zoo only has so much gas they can use to kill you. I've been using Perimeter Captain and Kitchen Finks, with Pulse of the Fields in the sb (Burn is also popular here). Sword of Fire and Ice also is awesome, gaining you life, putting your creature out of burn range, and bringing back a fallen comrade.
Vigilance is great: attacking with Jitte while still being able to block = awesome. Serra Avenger and Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers help.
Mother of Runes is awesome. I've also tested Epochrasite, but it really sucks unless you have a vial out at 2 or a Flickerwisp.

The problem with Zoo is that you need to have a pretty good opening hand, because they will cripple or kill you before you can stabilize with equipment or Mangara or whatever. Mother of Runes and Perimeter Captain are great for this as they are early drops. Karakas/Isamaru can help but it's not a common occurrence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaD

Apes still untap, Pridemages untap, 2/2 nacatls still untap, Mancers still untap.
Lynx just laughs about that thing.

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Zoo still plays Apes?
Lone Pridemage is not that scary.
Mancers? Ok, I have Grunts and Moms...
2/2 Nacatl? It means Zoo lacks one color and it's VERY good for DnT
Lynx? Ok, I have Harrier and Zoo have only that much fetches...
Also, DnT run some Swords to Plowshares...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaD

The only thing that does not untap are the goyfs or the big cc3 hosers (when played at all).

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Pretty good for 1 mana investment, if you ask me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaD

I am very sceptical about the point meekstone > Zoo for 1 MANA!!11!!

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I never said "ZOMG Meekstone > Zoo". That was not my point. My poit was that for a very low investment you can force Zoo player to make suboptimal plays. Also, Meekstone is in SB not to fight Zoo. But IMHO it is usefull against zoo too, thus it's good SB cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaD

Also whats wrong with spending removal on your selfproclaimed "key" cards?

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1) I never said Harrier and Meekstone are key kards against Zoo.
2) Spending 3 mana (Qasali or Grip) on 1-costed artifact against deck that can offer you Jitte and Swords is suboptimal. Burning/Pathing Harrier when there are Grunts, Avengers and Mangaras is suboptimal. Oh, and there's Mother of Runes...

This just needs more tests, but IMHO this small thing can add critical mass to consistently stall until lategame where DnT is far stronger than Zoo...

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Originally Posted by leander?

So do Flickerwisp and Mangara. Not even mentioning the equipment.

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But mystic does it in the most direct way.
Also it's not the point Im getting at.

While the Mangaralock is great it needs several turns (4+) to be awesome.
That's just not fast enough for Zoo/ NayaSlighesque decks.

Also I do heavily agree with an inclusion of Perimeter Captain for zoo infested metas.
That thing is just sick.
They need at least 2 cards to get rid of it and can stall the game for you until you get the mangara lock online or w/e if left unharmed.
Just messes with their winning plan.
But of course it does not deal with 10/10 hydras.

@Post above:

Some people still do play Apes in zoo, yes.
But as I already noticed meekstone still does nothing against the Ape-replacement Steppe lynx.
AS I also already mentioned meekstone does not deal with goyfs and cc3 creatures or whatever.
You still will be attacked once.
It is not the answer to this decks problems, it does not deal with zoo decks effectively at all and is highly situative and I don't feel like chewing on this point on and on.
You are heavily invited to test the card, I did it myself and I guess you will come to analog conclusions as I did.

I'm actually thinking about putting 3 Children of Korlis in the main instead of the Harriers, which kills me. But it does give a decent out to ANT. They can't really be bounced at all if you have a Vial set to 1. I have to find out how good ANT is at taking care of creature hate in game 1, but I think it is minimal.

Outside of that, they are good at hosing Dredge, and have some other uses. But I fear that they will mostly be 1/1's.

As I mentioned over on Salvation, I've dropped Mangara from my build. Too slow and awkward unless you also have Karakas and Aether Vial @ 3, making for a 3-card combo that I was rarely ever able to assemble in competitive play. Maybe I just suck.

Isamaru is pretty mediocre nowadays. I cut him entirely.

With the near absence of legendary creatures in my list, Karakas is very cuttable. I'm running two just because it bounces Iona. Not sure yet if it's worth the increased exposure to Wasteland.

Stoneforge Mystic is ridiculous. Quite possibly the best creature in the deck. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON NOT TO RUN FOUR. Sorry to yell, but it irks me that I keep seeing lists with only 3 Mystics.

Ranger of Eos is our Ringleader. I've been playing him for quite a while, and he's quite good.

Kor Duelist is an experiment, suggested by one of my teammates. Seems reasonable, given the increased focus on equipment, but the jury's still out.

16 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

3 Oblivion Ring

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Mother of Runes
1 Figure of Destiny
2 Kor Duelist
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Ranger of Eos

I have been testing the following build. Even though I still use the combo, I decided that building the deck around it wouldn't be worth it. I find that Stoneforge Mystic is awesome in the deck, allowing us to fetch protection from several relevant colors, or a basilisk collar to stick on Mother of Runes for additional fun. I tested Figure of Destiny in place of the Harrier, but I find that the harrier lets me slow aggressive decks down until I can find a better answer. The one thing I'm unsure of is that I have no Children of Korlis's anywhere. I've been considering cutting out the Aven Mindcensor, but it benefits us in several matchups. I'm still worried that Runed Halo and the Canonist aren't enough anti-combo though, but the local meta doesn't have too much combo, so I might not worry about it.

Lands:
3 Karakas
12 Plains
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

Creatures:
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Goldmeadow Harrier

Spells:
3 AEther Vial
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Aura of Silence
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Meekstone

Goldmeadow Harrier is a mediocre Mother of Runes wannabe. As good as Mom is, I don't want to fill my deck with Mom clones. Children of Korliss is a marginal sideboard card at best. Similar arguments apply to many of the other 1cc creatures I've seen mentioned recently, such as Perimeter Captain.

I mean, yeah, the pickings are kind of slim when it comes to White Weenie creatures, but they aren't that slim.

Also, Meekstone is crap. Total crap. Play Retribution of the Meek. It's a perfect sideboard card for this deck.

If you want to beat ANT, you're going to have to devote 8 of your 75 cards to it. Minimum. Same goes for Dredge/Reanimator. Basically, pick which one you want to beat, and consign yourself to the fact that you're going to lose to the other one. For the most part, I recommend punting the ANT matchup and concentrate on beating the graveyard-dependent decks.

I'm really unsure about the SB in general. At the last Legacy tournament I went to, I saw a good bit of different aggro and midrange decks, with only one person playing Dredge and two people playing storm out of some 30-ish people. That is why I saw the need for Harriers in addition to Mother of Runes. I'm unsure about Aura of Silence, because it's a bit slow, and I already have Oblivion Rings and Mangara to destroy artifacts. I might remove it from the SB in favor of a different card. The only problem is that I'm horrible at designing sideboards and have no idea what to replace it with. True Believer might be a solid choice.

Hmm, Runed Halo actually looks pretty good these days. Goldmeadow Harrier has been very good. Retribution of the Meek has not ben good to me. I keep dying with it in my hand.

Hmm you guys don't seem to like Meekstone? Keep in mind that Meekstone is not always going to come down on turn 2. More often then not your opponent is going to fetch into his solid mana base to get each land, making Nacatl a 3/3, which means as long as you don't blow up his lands with Wasteland, Meekstone should take care of Nacatl, Goyf, and KoTR. Sure your opponent will blow it up occasionally, but 1 colorless isn't that much of an investment and if your opponent pops a pridemage to get rid of it, better for us who hold equipment in hand. At the very least it trades with pridemage, at the most it slows them down long enough for us to get Mangara online or get a dude equipped.

Another thought.. a friend posited Epochrasite. Its pretty dam good with Vial, and in the aggro matchup it keeps coming back unless it gets eaten by PtE.

And yet another thought.. PtE would be a nice add in the board against Zoo. I know they play 3 colors but often they dodge this by fetching basics anyway. x4 would surely be inhibiting for them.

In the history of this deck, Epochrasite has been suggested approximately one million times. Yes, a 4/4 that you can Vial into play on turn 3 is decent, maybe even good-ish. Without Vial, though, it's pretty poor.

Btw, Zoo is not a problem for my version of the deck. I promise you.

This question is something I know I am going to get flamed but...

How much will I lose if I ran the deck without the Karakas + Mangara engine?

I have all the cards from Finn's update OP (except for Karakas). My friend who is still building a deck wants to join a small legacy tournament next week and I would like to help her. Since her deck is a half-assed, half-done enchantress, I presented to lend her a deck. Problem is there are already people borrowing my other decks.

Anyways, any good alternative on not running Karakas + Mangara engine? Thanks!