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Why do some people sitll pefer the R version over any other version , this seems like a poor decision to me.
R offered Bolt for reach and Removal but now Goyf > Bolt
R also offered Pyroclasm but storn combo and etw tokens are on the decline (as well as goblins)
R has Fledgling Dragon but enforcer work as well (Even though you can pump the dragon with that extra mana)
W offers swords , Swords > Goyf
W offers Meddling Mage , a better answer to combo
So can someone explain to me why pople still play R as their only splash?
I guess because the burn that comes with the red splash gives the deck the reach that the white splash version sorely misses. Also, Meddling Mage ain't so good anymore with all the combo decks adapting themselves against them.
Red handles random aggro much better than white. Burn spells like bolt and fire // ice are never dead cards (like swords to plowshares) against certain creature-lite or creature-less decks. Besides, goyf-on-goyf mirrors can still be won with burn so swords to plowshares is not necessarily a strictly superior choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimated
Red also has some very strong side-board options: ancient grudge vs. artifacts, pyroclasm vs fast aggro, red elemental blast vs. blue control decks, and numerous others.
Meddling Mage is great verses combo (that's true), but it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread; it's fragile (easily killed or bounced), slow (when on the draw, MM gives a combo deck two unmolested turns before it comes down), and it's blind (you need to know what you're matched up against in order to name the most effective card). I like MM much better in UWB Fish decks where you have duress and/or thoughtseize first turn, to better gauge what you need to use the MM for on turn two.
As far as I'm concerned, swords to plowshares is the best reason for the white splash, and that just isn't enough to make white the clearly superior choice over red.
Because Red has better SB options than White does.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAnimated
Ram Goyf into Goyf, Bolt opposing Goyf. That works, right?Quote:
R offered Bolt for reach and Removal but now Goyf > Bolt
Wait until Survival gets big... then you'll see Pyroclasm shine.Quote:
R also offered Pyroclasm but storn combo and etw tokens are on the decline (as well as goblins)
And Fledgling Dragon will forever be better than Enforcer simply because it takes two turns to win with Dragon, whereas, it takes 3 turns with Enforcer.Quote:
R has Fledgling Dragon but enforcer work as well (Even though you can pump the dragon with that extra mana)
True. Swords actually stops Breakfast, whereas, Bolt cant do shit when a Goyf is down and Nomad just laughs at you.Quote:
W offers swords , Swords > Goyf
Mage is shit... Counterbalance is where it's at...Quote:
W offers Meddling Mage , a better answer to combo
And besides, because of Counterbalance, Red can compete with White.
Quote:
So can someone explain to me why pople still play R as their only splash?
Blood Moon is better than Armageddon (which actually does something against 43 Land). Pyroclasm is better than Stifles and Hydroblasts. Fledgling Dragon is better than Enforcer.
White also offers very good sideboard choices against a lot of decks, like Worship, Dueling Grounds, Jotun Grunt, Armageddon, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg...What does Red ***** offers? Blood Moon? You have to be kidding me.
And NQGw is capable of running Counterbalance. Compared with NQGr, Counterbalance just don't fits into the concept of NQGr.
I would like to quote Clemens here (Der_imaginäre_Freund):
NQGw -> AggroCONTROL
NQGr -> AGGROcontrol
Also, runnign more permanents makes Nimble Mongoose suck. That's why you shouldn't play Countertop in NQGr, because it will also hinder NQGr to play the role as a aggrodeck when it has to be aggressive.
It's true that burn provides more flexibility in random-metas, but in some random metas randomstuff like Tombstalkers or Grave-Shell Scrab can simply smash your face in. NQGr is also not very good against Ichorid, but NQGw has still got a chance (it just depends in the SB).
And a Counterbalance Lock can win games by itself and it protects your threats. The main thing I don't like about the "american" versions is that NQGr is also playey like AggoCONTROL, with Bolts instead of StoPs and Fledling Dragons instead of Enforcers, but in this case NQGr IS inferior to NQGw (I mean the Hatfields' build).
I like the build I posted several timey better, because it uses Shackles and Repeal to win damage races and as additional allround-"removals".
Shackles are way better against Survival than Pyroclasm is. Jotun Grunt is also.
NQGr also can't win against Hoofprints of the Stag.
But having a moderately improved game vs. random Aggro (which Thresh beats anyway) is enough to make red clearly better? I remain confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by nastynate
It's not as though White is a bad color from the SB. I heard Armageddon is a good card, as is Worship (if you still play it), as is Jotun Grunt, and COP: Red, etc. etc. Most of the cards in your board should be colorless, green, or blue anyway, so I'm still not certain I see your point.
It's a toss up for colors, and has been for a long time. Neither is truly "superior."
I personally like the black splash more than the red one. Black offers up ghastly demise/thoughtseize/bob and other great sideboard cards like duress/jailor/plague etc...
Red has Pyroclasm, Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Ancient Grudge, Pillar, REB, FtK, and as for threats, creature steal will forever be better than extra threatsQuote:
Originally Posted by Adan
That was just ignorance. The build with Counterbalance was introduced in the form of UGR, just to have a strong overall edge against Goblins and Thresh at the time.Quote:
And NQGw is capable of running Counterbalance. Compared with NQGr, Counterbalance just don't fits into the concept of NQGr.
There is no right way to build UGR. I hope you dont mean this all in general.Quote:
Also, runnign more permanents makes Nimble Mongoose suck. That's why you shouldn't play Countertop in NQGr, because it will also hinder NQGr to play the role as a aggrodeck when it has to be aggressive.
I will be honest, in an unknown metagame, I would go for White.Quote:
It's true that burn provides more flexibility in random-metas, but in some random metas randomstuff like Tombstalkers or Grave-Shell Scrab can simply smash your face in. NQGr is also not very good against Ichorid, but NQGw has still got a chance (it just depends in the SB).
First off, it's ignorant to call the "American" versions of Red Gro played like Control. Only people who do that are the Hatfield fans and such. Second, if you look at Gen Con, the Top 8 had 3 UGr Gro decks from canada, which are very aggressive. The US also has many aggressive Red Gro lists running around since it is popularized by Paul Nicoclo.Quote:
And a Counterbalance Lock can win games by itself and it protects your threats. The main thing I don't like about the "american" versions is that NQGr is also playey like AggoCONTROL, with Bolts instead of StoPs and Fledling Dragons instead of Enforcers, but in this case NQGr IS inferior to NQGw (I mean the Hatfields' build).
I wouldn't call the Red versions inferior to the White versions... These were two different lists for two different metagames. You can only say white is better simply because it is more suited for the modern metagame.
Shackles being good against Survival is a no-brainer. But the problem with Grunt is that you present a rather weak threat that only swings. It doesnt affect the game if Survival isnt active. This is what I like about Shackles and Pyroclasm, they affect the game state.Quote:
Shackles are way better against Survival than Pyroclasm is. Jotun Grunt is also.
Needle?Quote:
NQGr also can't win against Hoofprints of the Stag.
The "american NQG" thing was just a personal taste. I had some playtesting with the Dryad-Build that T8ed GenCon, I think James king was his name. I took his build, exchanged the Opts with Ponder and then started to play. 1 Dryad on the opening hand together with the appropirate resources can win the game, yes, but sometimes multiple Dryads are a bad topdeck and they are always coming into play as a 1/1 creature.
And the comparison with the NQGr Hatfield-***** with NQGw is won by NQGw, because it has got Mystic Enforcer as a substitute for Fledgling Dragon AND superior removal. It also offers Sideboard cards that can be used for much more purposes than the Sideboardcards of NQGr. Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Ancient Grudge and FtK are very, very, very dependant from the metagame the deck is going to be played. What I also don't understand about those 3 cards:
Blood Moon: Why? You need 2-3 turns of preparation beforce you can drop Blood Moon without disturbing yourself. Blood Moon also requires Basic Lands. And I personally don't like palying non-Island Lands in NQG. The chance of getting that Basic Forest in your opening hand is little, but IF you have it, it's auto-mulligan. And that kind of bad luck can be avoided easily, but back to topic. You have to fetch together the appropirate manabase and drop some threats before playing Blood Moon.
Price of Progress: Nearly the same as Blood Moon, it also needs some preparations AND caution, because Price of Progress can turn around the damage race.
Wrapping up, Winter Orb is the better choice to play when you are going to play against 43Land or Survival (but it also depends on the Build).
Ancient Grudge...I never understood that card. Krosan Grip is better in a big meta where it's difficult to say what is going to be played. And IF you have a kind of paranoia about Stax, Shattering Spree would also be better.
And Flametounge Kavu is not better than Threads of Disloyalty, Control Magic or Vedalken Shackles since he won't kill a Tarmogoyf while dying to small chumpblockers, Pyroclasm, random burn... He pretty much sucks imo.
Pillar is only good against Solidarity I think. Against fast combos like TES and Belcher you have to be prepared for a fuckton of EtW tokens (condition fullfilled by Pyroclasm and EE) and the Belcher itself (condition fulfilled by counterbackup).
Of course NQGr is better in a meta with a lot of Goblins.
But I didn't knew the Counterbalance build was introduced as UGR. But I still think it doesn't fit, but that's only because our "german" build looks different and is played much more aggressive than the "american" builds are because it's built to win damage races against enemy Goyfs, with Vedalken Shackles winning games by themselves against random aggro.
Quirion Dryads can be powerful, but they will always come into play as a shabby 1/1, so they are a bad topdeck in the lategame and they also suck when you have 2 or more of them in your hand.
The thing is, if you aren't playing Counterbalance somewhere in your 75, your build is suboptimal.
Obviously, it works perfectly fine in UGr builds.
Sorry about the earlier post it was unfinished due to the fact class was over.
So back to what i was saying
W also offers Teeg ( I don't know if this was brought up earlier but is still an option)
On another note Black has some things to offer as well
Dark Confidant even MORE card advantage in a deck full of can trips and deck manipulation
More removal such as Diabolic Edict , Ghastly Demise , Snuff Out and other things
Thoughtsieze I don't know if anyone tested this but I can see that this could help in some situations
Other SB options you can run Leyline , even though you already have crypt , Plague ( if your meta still has those pesky goblins and what not) and other things.
Only in your's which you had played during the GenCon prelims. But I prefer the NQGw instead of your NQGr because it has got the superior removal and Mystic Enforcer as a equivalent beatstick. And better sideboardoptions obv.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Counterbalance does NOT fit into the "tempo"-builds like Dryad-***** or the one I play with BTS, Repeal and Shackles.
You also didn't maindeck Counterbalance, but there was/is absolutley no reason why you should not maindeck it, especially when you are playing the NQGr build, because Counterbalance protects your Critters and takes over the role of Meddling Mage.
But now, if you say "NQG without CB is suboptimal", would you agree with me that NQGw is superior overall? If you compare them directly, the builds are exactly the same except that NQGw has got StoP and Enforcer instead of Lightning Bolt and Fledgling Dragon.
Additionally, white provides more and better SB-Options for all purposes, while red has only got Pyroclasms which are worth to mention in my opinion.
That the Counterbalance Engine was first introduced in a UGR build isn't really an argument why counterbalanced UGR is better than counterbalanced UGW.
I am surprised to hear such an obviously wrong statement from you. Such a generalization is never correct. But I don't talk about Counterbalance, it is fine in the main, in the side or not in the 75 at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
I don't say that W is better than R but if you run R then you should run more burn. With only 4 Bolts as burn, W is better. Close to strictly.
So I also dislike AntiAmerican's last list for the same reasons that Adan pointed out. Just replace Bolt with Swords and Dragon with Enforcer in AA's list and you get a nearly strictly better maindeck.
Bolt vs. Sword:
- Reach:
You can't call 4 Bolts in your deck reach. It takes at least Bolt + Fire/Ice to be able to realistically burn out the opponent.
- "Ram goyf into Goyf, than Bolt it":
That only works if your opponent has no Swords. If he Swords your Goyf, then you have a Bolt in hand that cannot trade 1 - 1.
- Against Enforcer/Dragon/Mishra's Factory Swords are 1000x better
- R offers better SB options:
not true: Geddon, Jotun Grunt, Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage are all very strong.
- Dragon kills in 2, Enforcer in 3:
Dragon requires RR and that makes him easier disruptable by Wasteland. Furthermore, for a 2-turn-kill you need at least RRR every turn and even then the kill is not sure.
So if you play with only one Instant-Removal, play the white version.
I will stand behind that statement. Eschewing Counterbalance from any Threshold variant is unacceptable.
As far as comparing the splash colors, I think you are all simply undervaluing Pyroclasm. If there are enough Goblins (as there were only a few months ago), Pyroclasm out of the board can definitely make up for the difference between Bolt and Swords.
Right now, I don't recommend the red build, because Goblins is on the decline and the mirror is on the rise.
If you are afraid of Goblins you can also play Tivadar's Crusade, Dueling Grounds or Worship in the SB of NQGw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
By the way the Green Splash gets more and more popular, and even Goblins are starting to run Tarmogoyf. And I'm not kidding, it happened to me on the last Bazaar League. I sat there with my BEBs and Pyroclasms and could only watch how Tarmogoyf fucked me up. So Pyroclasm also loses value.
Even though "Goyf in Vial-Goblins" sound completley stupid, it often just win games because this plan evades Pyroclasms, BEB, Plagues, Crusades, Burn and all the hate which is being used usually.
So with this point, SB Pyroclasm and MD Bolt can't reach MD Swords to Plowshares.
But concering your statement, why didn't you just maindecked Counterbalance instead of Counterspell? I bet you boarded it in against every Matchup except Goblins, didn't you?
I wouldn't say White has the better Sideboard. It just seems that nowadays, all the Sideboards consist of the same things; Shackles, 4th Counterbalance. There will only be around 2-3 White cards that would make a difference in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
That's a no-brainer. They have less land drops than we do...Quote:
Counterbalance does NOT fit into the "tempo"-builds like Dryad-***** or the one I play with BTS, Repeal and Shackles.
See Goblins much?Quote:
You also didn't maindeck Counterbalance, but there was/is absolutley no reason why you should not maindeck it, especially when you are playing the NQGr build, because Counterbalance protects your Critters and takes over the role of Meddling Mage.
Yes, but what difference does it make if you're the first one to assemble the Counter/Top combo?Quote:
But now, if you say "NQG without CB is suboptimal", would you agree with me that NQGw is superior overall? If you compare them directly, the builds are exactly the same except that NQGw has got StoP and Enforcer instead of Lightning Bolt and Fledgling Dragon.
If they made a White Pyroclasm that isnt Tivadar's Crusade, I'd join the bandwagon.Quote:
Additionally, white provides more and better SB-Options for all purposes, while red has only got Pyroclasms which are worth to mention in my opinion.
No, it was to say the UGR builds still have a very strong chance against the mirror because of the Counterbalance Engine. It was the reason why the Hatfields ran Red again, and with Pyroclasms, it made it a better overall deck without any one-sided bad match-ups. Let's just say it was just to stay even with Goblins.Quote:
That the Counterbalance Engine was first introduced in a UGR build isn't really an argument why counterbalanced UGR is better than counterbalanced UGW.
We limited the amount of Burn because we wanted a better deck in general, and so we don't draw dead against the mirror, combo, and control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
But if I were to run White with 8 removal cards, why dont I run a set of Condemns as well?
Maindeck? What made Threshold very strong was because the cantrip engine was very compatible and flexible with the Sideboard. Sometimes, you're going to have to lose Game 1 for a strong 50/50 chance in the next two games. In fact, even when I ran UGW, most of the games I won were actually 2-1ed. This was thanks to the Sideboard.Quote:
So I also dislike AntiAmerican's last list for the same reasons that Adan pointed out. Just replace Bolt with Swords and Dragon with Enforcer in AA's list and you get a nearly strictly better maindeck.
The point of the more Controllish versions wasnt to Burn the opponent out. This may apply to the more Tempo versions.Quote:
Bolt vs. Sword:
- Reach:
You can't call 4 Bolts in your deck reach. It takes at least Bolt + Fire/Ice to be able to realistically burn out the opponent.
This is the reason why the Hatfields didnt change to White during the Legacy Prelims at Gen Con...Quote:
- "Ram goyf into Goyf, than Bolt it":
That only works if your opponent has no Swords. If he Swords your Goyf, then you have a Bolt in hand that cannot trade 1 - 1.
This is true...Quote:
- Against Enforcer/Dragon/Mishra's Factory Swords are 1000x better
Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg... IMO, they're a crutch. Even the Hatfields removed them from the Sideboards in favor of better Anti-Combo cards like Stifle, and Counterbalance.Quote:
- R offers better SB options:
not true: Geddon, Jotun Grunt, Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage are all very strong.
Counterbalance is the reason why you dont need those cards anymore.
Honestly, do people even throw Wastelands at Volcanic Islands? They're always trying to keep you off Green. Mise well take advantage of this.Quote:
- Dragon kills in 2, Enforcer in 3:
Dragon requires RR and that makes him easier disruptable by Wasteland. Furthermore, for a 2-turn-kill you need at least RRR every turn and even then the kill is not sure.
This isnt absolutely true. Red versions are still viable with only 4 Lightning Bolts. I'm still doing well in testing against the mirror. Just go ask my teammate Kyachi who still runs UGw. We played a 12 pre-board game set, and I won 6 of them pre-board.Quote:
So if you play with only one Instant-Removal, play the white version.
Tivadar's Crusade forces you into making mistakes, which make Wastelands and Rishadan Ports more likely to tap down Green sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Worship and Dueling Grounds might work... but then you need Enforcers.
It took me some practice against Green Goblins to actually use Bolt at right timings though.Quote:
By the way the Green Splash gets more and more popular, and even Goblins are starting to run Tarmogoyf. And I'm not kidding, it happened to me on the last Bazaar League. I sat there with my BEBs and Pyroclasms and could only watch how Tarmogoyf fucked me up. So Pyroclasm also loses value.
Your mistake was not answering the Vials in the first place.Quote:
Even though "Goyf in Vial-Goblins" sound completley stupid, it often just win games because this plan evades Pyroclasms, BEB, Plagues, Crusades, Burn and all the hate which is being used usually.
So with this point, SB Pyroclasm and MD Bolt can't reach MD Swords to Plowshares.
But concering your statement, why didn't you just maindecked Counterbalance instead of Counterspell? I bet you boarded it in against every Matchup except Goblins, didn't you?[/quote]
Tivadar's Crusade sucks... you need to fetch out 2x Tundras to make it work, which forces you into mistakes of increasing the value of Ports and Wastes on Green sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I'm suprised you havent mentioned Chills as a replacement for Clasms yet...
This takes practice... esp. with Lightning Bolts. Just dont let Vial resolve.Quote:
By the way the Green Splash gets more and more popular, and even Goblins are starting to run Tarmogoyf. And I'm not kidding, it happened to me on the last Bazaar League. I sat there with my BEBs and Pyroclasms and could only watch how Tarmogoyf fucked me up. So Pyroclasm also loses value.
Or you can just answer Vials?Quote:
Even though "Goyf in Vial-Goblins" sound completley stupid, it often just win games because this plan evades Pyroclasms, BEB, Plagues, Crusades, Burn and all the hate which is being used usually.
Not really. Pyroclasm is better reach against a board full of Goblins. Besides, you can always Clasm on Main phase 2.Quote:
So with this point, SB Pyroclasm and MD Bolt can't reach MD Swords to Plowshares.
You be suprised, Alix Hatfield Top 8ed with a White build at the last Kadi's DLD with Maindecked Counterbalance.Quote:
But concering your statement, why didn't you just maindecked Counterbalance instead of Counterspell? I bet you boarded it in against every Matchup except Goblins, didn't you?
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [b] Tundra
4 [u] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Forest (2)
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
// Spells
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [R] Counterspell
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [u] Control Magic
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
@ Anit-American: That was an excellent post.
I like your use of counterspell. I almost like it over counterbalance, mained, on account of it is a hard counter. None of this "maybe" or "if I get top out" crap. I liked to run three, back when I played the Herbig Project.
Not necessarily... Not everyone's Meta consists of 12 - 15 Threshold/NGQ type builds. Not to say that CB is only good against Threshold type decks, but there are many decks where it is less than stellar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
You can't make such a blanket statement, again not all metas look the same. Mine for instance consistently has 2 Goblin builds in all most every event (12 - 15 is the typical turn out).Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Counterbalance is absolutely stellar against every deck in the DTB forum right now. When the DTB forum gets updated tonight, I won't be able to say that (Ichorid and Goblins will be moving in), but the card will still be fantastic against the vast majority of relevant decks in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Counterbalance should at least be in your sideboard, barring an extremely warped metagame. But then, if all you see is Goblins and Ichorid, don't play Thresh, anyway.
Quote:
You can't make such a blanket statement, again not all metas look the same. Mine for instance consistently has 2 Goblin builds in all most every event (12 - 15 is the typical turn out).
Quote:
Originally Posted by me, in the same post you quoted