[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by Finn

Wow, another decent sweeper. Has anyone ever tried to change the focus of the deck slightly to include several different sweepers? I figure it would slow the deck, but also make it a bit more resilient to some of its worst problems: Chalice and swarms.

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I actually Had that very Idea so I tried to make a quick decklist with that in mind

4 Rift bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Chain lightning
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Flamebreak
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Price of Progress
2 Smash to smithereens
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Cave in

16 Mountains
4 Barbarian Ring


It's pretty slow obviously compared to Real Burn, but with 10 sweepers it's pretty good against aggro, and with so many 3 cc spells better against Trinisphere and CB, also the volcanic fallout is good as a suprise spell against landstill (can't be countered and kills attacking mishra's or can lead to 1-2 (not that good but hey))

I've been doing a lot of testing with Sulfuric Vortex as a MD card. It's given me consistent Turn4 wins (yes I know, that's fairly slow, but I still get the 6 Bolts T3 wins that we all do in burn :D). But instead of being a win-more card, Vortex is actually a card that improves the bad matchup, and is not a win-more card at all. It improves the Stax matchup tremendously, and gives great consistency for Turn4, Turn4.5 (i.e. opponent's upkeep Turn4) wins.

I've posted on MTGS about the inclusion of Sulfuric Vortex as a MD card. Here's my reasons:

1. Given 2 turns, it's a Flames of the Blood Hand, a very good burn that usually isn't run because it's not too flexible.
2. Given 3 turns, you've gotten a bigger flame rift.
3. Dodges 3Sphere, Chalice, Countertop (usually). Against Stax, this card improves your matchup tremendously since Ancient Tomb + Sulfuric Vortex = quick end to your opponent. It also shuts down angels' lifelink ability.
4. The gain life ability is just an additional pro. You usually want to use this card as a turn by turn Flame Rift. It does stop StP + Dreadnought/Goyf etc.

Regarding Sulfuric Vortex acting as a flame rift: for the experienced burn player, you know how often your life is usually around the 10-20 range when you are knocking your opponent into his coffin. And it is not surprising that the opponent, at 4 life, catches up and kills you with 2 goyfs when you're at 18-20. Sulfuric Vortex solves this problem and abuses the fact that your life > opponents life most of the time unless you're facing Goyf sligh. Play the card like an overcosted Flame Rift but it stays in play until removed, therefore hitting that last remaining life from your opponent away. Burn is the perfect deck that allows suicidal cards like Flame Rift/Vortex to be run since it's a deck that's dedicated to ignore the creature base, but just focus on that 20 life point your opponent has.

Most of the time when you draw Vortex on turn 3, you're guaranteed a turn 4.5 win (opponent's turn 4). It frees your next turn so that you can cast spells while continually doing damage.

I am not arguing about the power of Vortex since I believe I've made it clear that it's a really good sideboard card in burn. I'm arguing for its spot in the maindeck, given how it fits well in the curve at 3cc, and increasing consistencies of wins (mainly the matches you were winning but ended up losing because you burned out of burn and topdecked lands even though your life is 20 v.s. your opponent's life at 5). To fit the deck to maindeck Vortex, we need at least 19 lands, from my testing. Also, Flame Rift would have to go, but would be conveniently replaced by Price of Progress.

Just a thought. I've been playing burn for awhile, and this is the most consistent list I've had in awhile. I'm really hating Barbarian Ring sometimes. They are great when you reach Threshold and hellbent without cards, dealing that last needed 2 damage, but they are vulnerable to wastelands, weakening the manabase. This deck needs at least 2 mana to function fast, and losing a land is somewhat bad. Functioning at 1 mana is simply too slow.

I've also been testing Grim Lavamancer, and have mixed feelings about him. He's very strainous on the manabase but in a Ring-less build, he's a good source of additional damage, and playing him Turn 1, and swinging for 1 damage is similar to what Moggy does, but he gives more resources for the deck if unremoved. Not sure yet. I'm interested in testing a Ringless build with 3-4 Grim Lavamancers together with 4 Mogg Fanatics and 4 Keldon Marauders. Not sure whether going Ringless, hence avoiding the Wastelands and improving your PoP one-sidedness is worth cutting for 3-4 Grim Lavamancers that dies to everything but will be a great replacement if the opponent cannot remove him


On Volcanic Fallout (CON), I'm not a big fan of it since it doesn't kill threshed Mongeese, which is a pain in the butt if we want to improve the matchup against Thresh. It does work against the LS matchup so I recommend it as a sideboard card, while still maindecking Flamebreaks/Cave-Ins.

And it seems Burn just keep getting gifts:

Banefire X:r:
Sorcery (R)
Banefire deals X damage to target creature or player. If X is 5 or greater, Banefire can't be countered by spells or abilities and the damage can't be prevented.

Maybe a good one-of finisher in the board...Maybe even against 'still?

If Burn gets 6 land, Burn has (or should have) lost the game.

Is Ankh of Mishra any good in Burn? I know this way we derive from the ideology that no non land permanents should be played but there's not too much artifact hate running around and this can quickly deal 4~6 damage before it gets taken care off. It is a horrible lategame topdeck however and the synergy between Ankh and PoP isn't too good.

I've tried Ankh Burn with Shrapnel Blasts, but it's a little too slow. Ankh will be great with Wastelands, but that would dull down the manabase. A LD Burn deck would do well with Ankh, but Red LD is too slow in this Format.

New Spoiler from [CON]

Hellspark Elemental - 1r
Creature - Elemental (U)
Trample, haste
At end of turn, sacrifice Hellspark Elemental.
Unearth 1r
3/1

Interesting but Marauders is strictly better. It acts as a good 2 copies of Incinerate, but we would rather just play Incinerate. It is much better than those who advocate Spark Elemental though

It looks worth testing, although it would probably fit into Goyf Sligh better.

with this one, marauders and spark we have many critters that we can sacrifice easily to pay some cost.

Is there some card that does something good by sacrifiying creatures???
I have thought on greater gargadon, but he is not fast enough... some other idea?

Back in the old Extended 6 years back, I ran RDW with Keldon Brawlers (shittier Jotun Grunt), and Blistering Firecats etc. A good sac spell is Reckless Abandon

Reckless Abandon R
As an additional cost to play, sacrifice a creature, Reckless Abandon deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
Sorcery

It was my favorite spell back then and in the philosophy of RDW, it fits well, since you push all your damage through, and the last points, you can sac.

It might be worth running in a build with the Sparks and Keldon Marauders, but I think you need at least 14 creatures to capitalize on the card before it becomes a dead draw.

I personally wouldn't run it in the Legacy format due to Counterbalance and Chalice, which further weakens the deck.

From tempest we have:

Jinxed Idol
2 Mana
Card Type: Artifact
Rules Text (Oracle): At the beginning of your upkeep, Jinxed Idol deals 2 damage to you.
Sacrifice a creature: Target opponent gains control of Jinxed Idol. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

Which maybe can substitue sulfuric vortex in the sideboard. But it doesn't seem good enough.

What abourt Hell's Thunder, and the new Hellspark Elemental spoiled on MTGS? Both have Unearth, and are relatively cheap to play; also, they both do 3 damage.

In fact we are discussing Hellspark Elemental. Read the 4 or 5 newests posts.

And a burn deck will never have 5 lands to pay Hell's Thunder's unearth. We want to kill in turn 4, and we sacrifice mountains to fireblast and shard volley. 5 mana are too many.

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Originally Posted by redmage

Incinerate: Metagame dependent, but if your opponents pop a single fetch land in the first three turns, then one is just as good, if not better than a Flame Rift, for the turn 3 win scenerio listed above.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by redmage

In my meta, I'm almost certain to see my opponents pop a Fetch within their first 3 turns; so it functions as an instant speed 4-for-2 as far as my goldfish is concerned.

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I can't agree with this analysis. If you see a bunch of suicide in your meta, you can reasonably expect to win after dealing 18-19 damage, but you can't choose a weak card and rationalize its inclusion by saying it actually does more damage. It does exactly what it does, and a card that does more damage would do more damage.

Could I replace your Lightning Bolts with Shocks, and claim that because of fetchlands Shock is good enough? No, cards do what they do regardless of your opponent's life total (yeah, yeah Razor Pendulum). The only thing that changes is what your deck as a whole needs to do to win.

I get that you weren't actually saying that Incinerate does 4 damage, but rather that any further damage wouldn't be necessary in a particular case. However, a three turn kill against a live opponent is a very seldom thing. Between discard, countermagic, resource denial, opposing life gain, drawing spells that do 2 damage, and having your Fanatic/Marauder die prematurely, you will very often need more than 20 damage "in hand," so I would argue that you do in fact need all the damage you can get. Even when goldfishing, you don't always get the perfect cards, and sometimes you definitely need that last point.

I would argue against Flame Rift because it does so much damage to you, and in certain aggro-heavy metas and the mirror match that is fatal. However, to say that Incinerate hurts them just as much is just not true.

That said, I generally like your thoughts on Burn decks, and will definitely try out Cave-In in the main instead of Flamebreak. As you said, burn doesn't often see totally dead cards, but it does see wildly suboptimal cards for a given situation.

I still do like Keldon Marauders though. :tongue:

@kirbysdl: That's precisely why I advocated Sulfuric Vortex in the main. The problems I had with burn is: I bring my opponent to 4-6 life and he stabilizes and counters everything or beats with goyfs.

It's not a rare occassion that you're at 18 and your opponent's at 4 and you lose. I like Vortex because it maximizes one card over many turns, and stops life-gain shennanigans. Most importantly, burn can afford that self-damage because the life gap is huge in the early game. You usually stay at 15-20 while you watch your opponent go: 20->17->13->7->4->you lose because you topdeck crap or he stabilizes with countertop/chalice

Vortex escapes both Countertop and Chalice, which are the main demons of the deck and capitilizes on the fact that burn always has more life than the opponent in the first 3 turns. Once in play, it will push through that remaining damage that is often hard to push through, in all my testing, it's a good card that improves your bad matchups and makes your better matchups a little slower, but it's definitely not a win-more card, which is why I suggest running them.

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Originally Posted by crz87

@kirbysdl: That's precisely why I advocated Sulfuric Vortex in the main. The problems I had with burn is: I bring my opponent to 4-6 life and he stabilizes and counters everything or beats with goyfs.

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The fundamental problem with Vortex though is that it doesn't guarantee damage, and that runs against Burn's philosophy. I might still try it for kicks though. =)

It guarantees damage more than anything else. And first, it starts with burning your opponent for 2.

Like crz87 I am totally sold on Vortex. I'm personally going up to 4 in maindeck. It's just so great that it makes sure that the game will end soon and fast. Without it I lost many games with an opponent on <5 life.

I think Ankh of Mishra is more worthy of maindeck consideration than Sulfuric Vortex.

It deals FIVE damage to your opponent everytime they crack a fetchland.

Even if you're facing off against the handful of decks that don't play fetchlands, they usually still make land drops the first four turns.

Ankh is golden against every matchup that Vortex is golden against (stax, control etc).

So effectively, Ankh is a 2cc Sulfuric Vortex that becomes straight up broken against the 90% of the decks that play fetchlands.

Cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Ankh of Mishra, Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon make me pray that Wizards will someday print a red dark ritual. Sorcery based mana acceleration is Red's thing nowadays afterall.

Maybe if enough people write/email in to Wizards requesting it, we just might get a Blood Ritual (a red Dark Ritual).

And that card by itself would push Burn into tier one thanks to Vortex+Ankh+8 Moon effects that can now all be played turn one.

Captain Hammer, I disagree,

Because I piloted Ankh Burn with MD Vortex, and unlike Vortex, Ankh is useless after turn 3. Almost useless, since burn needs 4-5 turns to win or it loses when the opponent stabilizes.

Ankh was golden when I played first and dropped it on second turn, with opponents fetching, but its effectiveness drops for every turn you delay, with either your opponent going first or you drawing it after turn 3. Vortex on the other hand is always useful whenever you play it. It doesn't get countered by Spell Snare, and avoids countertop and Chalice@2.

I can't stress how good the card is. It's enabled me to push through all the MU where my opponent is low at 3-6 life. It just sits there and deals damage throughout. If you resolve 2 Vortex, it's LOL you win. Burn is a funny deck. It capitilzes on the situation of your opponent, abusing the metagame of fetches. Ankh is a good candidate since it abuses opponent's fetches, but Ankh isn't great in a meta where Countertop/Spell snare is prevalent, nor if you topdeck it late game.

I recommend 3, not 4 Vortex. I've tested the numbers and 3 MD Vortex suits the 19land curve very well. 4 Vortex causes you to draw too many vortex early game which is useless if you can't play them.

I guess it really depends on your meta. But in a tuned meta where 70% of the decks play atleast 8 fetchlands, Ankh is insane.

If your opponent doesn't play out lands past their second land just to not get hit by Ankh, you gain an advantage from that too.

But I guess Vortex is great for avoiding burn's pitfalls too.

Either way, have you emailed wizards asking them to print...

Blood Ritual R
Sorcery
Add RRR to your mana pool.
Blood Ritual deals three damage to you.

yet.

That card may not seem unbalanced.

It's actually an oncolor (Rites of Flame and Seething Song prove this is a red ability now) and very thematic. The whole take three damage and bleed yourself fits in perfectly.

But in legacy, it would push Burn into tier one thanks to the turn one Ankh, Vortex, 3 Bolt, Blood Moon and Magus possibilities that it offers.