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Cabal Ritual functions as 2x more LED's when we have Threshold. I don't think you understand this, they're also amazing when in comes to recovery. I've gone off turn 1 (Stopped), turn 2 Draw Nauseum, Turn 3 CRitual -> win. The power of the card is good. It also adds BB for Nauseum, unlike SSG. Both have thier merit's however, I believe they both have different functions and roles. Which is why we should be playing both.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
EDIT:WOOO! DTW..again.
So after looking at Breathweapon's decklist I got to thinking... why do people like Orim's Chant over Duress to begin with. I know Bryant's list has both, but why not 4 duress and cut down on the chants?
The way I see it, duress is going to help you much more by: Getting rid of the counterbalance/top in their hand before they get the chance to play it, let you see their hand so you know to play around it, pull out that counterspell (or they might counter it and you won't know what their hand is, but I usually assume I'm safe to go off if I pull a FoW + blue card out of their hand, and this really has the same result as them countering your chant).
Against a mirror, it is just slightly worse, since Chanting them halfway through a combo is usually going to get rid of 3 or more of their cards while duress only grabs one.
Also, the cost of duress is black which is obviously sometimes easier to get through your accel.
Any thoughts on this?
It shuts off multiple agents of interruption. Chant has infinite uses. Also in regards to combo protection what is the point of taking a piece of disruption if you are going to combo that turn anyway, game is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
So after reading your post I got to thinking, why do people make suggestions without testing? ...anyways, excessive testing has shown that Orim's Chant is without doubt the best protection in legacy storm, if it resolves you can combo unhithered and at worst it ALWAYS draws a counter. Duress doesn't protect an IGG loop, it also doesn't deal with your opponent holding brainstorm with a top in play allowing them to hide something like a stifle. Orim's Chant also doubles as a time walk against aggro unlike duress which is for the most part a dead card. Also on the note of it being easier to cast, this is true for the simple fact of chrome mox, but the fact is Lotus petal and all your lands tap for 5c, so it is almost never going to be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Because the answers coming from someone who has playtested the deck for more hours than I have spent reading about it undoubtedly knows more about it than I do (I should hope). Answering people's questions like mine then allow for this thread to not be clogged with people who aren't as good at playing a deck suggesting you add trash in like metamorphose, or change the deck entirely by using mystical tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
We all know that people playtesting decks is a bad thing if they don't know how to play them correctly. Check out the Team America thread for proof of this...
I do plan on playtesting this deck, but god knows I'll suck at it (compared to people who have played it a lot) for the first 10 matches, and who wants playtesting results from a scrub at the deck?
Sorry to come off as a dick, that question has just been asked too many time, probably second only to Why isn't Mystical Tutor in here... but seriously Chant is the best protection, Duress is a good compliment though.
Of course I understand Cabal Ritual + Threshold is great, but Cabal Ritual is a "late game" card in an "early game" deck. If I wanted to use Cabal Ritual I'd just play ANT, because the card is better suited for a slower paced deck. I don't want to include a sub-optimal card out of the gate because it may give me a chance to come back later, and if you're only running 1 or 2 it's just inconsistent at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
@J.V.
I call BS, Duress > Orim's Chant because Ad Nauseam just powers thru' Spellsnare and Stifle, I have a much higher win % with Duress than Orim's Chant vs any deck with Counterbalance and I have tested the hell out of it against Threshold and Dreadstill.
Regardless of late game or early game, Cabal Ritual is still a +1 spell. Give or take some benefits between SSG and Cabal, and they're basically on the same level. They both provide +1 (barring Threshold), though Cabal Ritual may require you to have more initial mana sources, thus hurting your ability to cast multiple spells of different colors (ie. Ponder, Brainstorm, Rite of flame) in the same turn. Downsides to Simian Spirit Guide include that it doesn't add to the storm count if RFG'd, cannot be used in loops, and causes you to take one more damage when flipping it off Ad Nauseum.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I've never really had a problem with either.
Some ignorant question...are EtW comparable to IGG??Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Glimervoid not undiscovered/forbbinden???
4 pyroblast + 4 red elemental blast aren't too much??
Are 4 ad nausseaM indeed needed?? Manamorphose has no place in this deck??
The last one Orim's chant or Xantid swarm (none is in this list)??
All Ill Gotten Gains and/or Empty the Warrens does is prevent the opponent from naming Ad Nauseam and disabling Infernal Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I prefer Glimmervoid over Undiscovered Paradise because Undiscovered Paradise costs land drops, but Forbidden Orchards are reasonable alternatives.
Maybe, I've been experimenting with siding out some combination of Infernal Tutors, Ponders, Chrome Moxes and Simian Spirit Guides and then taking a "control" roll with 8 blasts, I haven't drawn any conclusions tho'.
I'd never run less than 4 of Ad Nauseam, the card is teh nutz.
Manamorphose is terrible, awful shit.
Duress > Orim's Chant, now that Ad Nauseam powers thru' Stifle and Spellsnare you get more utility from discarding Counterbalance than you do by "turning off" the soft counters. About the only time I regret using Duress instead of Orim's Chant is against decks running Counterspell, but Counterbalance is what GGs this deck more than any other card and it's what I care about most.
Vexing Shusher and Xantid Swarm are removal bait and don't stop Counterbalance from hitting the board, and if you haven't caught on I pretty much bet the house on stopping Counterbalance from hitting the board.
I currently don't have time to test this, however, I'm hoping other people do. I've been looking for a slot to replace the 4th Chrome Mox, but I also wanted an answer for Gaddeck Teeg/Mage. I'm thinking about going back to 11 land and running a singleton Cabal Pit. Thoughts? I know it seems bad, but I'm sure it's better than it's initial impression.
Wouldn't it be easier to just run a single Chain of Vapor? It doesn't require a land drop or threshold, it also adds 1 storm count while requiring the same mana investment. You also do not screw with the mana base, adding a single color nonbasic land just seems bad. I may be way off here Im no T.E.S expert, just saying it like it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Chain of Vapor is another option. Land drops don't really matter, because the deck runs so few. I don't think it's screwing with the manabase because you're simply adding a land in place of a 1/2 mana source. The argument for Cabal Pit is it's an answer and a mana source. Although Chain of Vapor isn't bad either, I was just thinking about an additional mana source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
Slaughter Pact?
Free storm, can still be protected by Chants and stuff and you'll probably have the mana to upkeep it. It's also black for Chrome Mox and doesn't cost you a mana on your combo turn, just a card.
Chain of Vapor adds more storm and can bounce Counterbalance. Chain of Vapor can make like 6-8 storm on it's own. This is making me want to play it so that the Grapeshot win is more likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
Yeah, Vapor is a much better answer to things as a whole, I'm definitely not gonna lie there. If it was a case of needing one answer to Teeg and nothing else, Pact is one of, if not your best option. However, with other things like Counterbalance in the format, and especially if your maindecking this answer, the Chain would be the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Also, Wipe Away. Too mana intensive?
Sucks with Ad Nauseum also. Eh, I'm not even sure what I want there. I kinda want a mana source, It may just stay as Mox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
I know is FT I really don't care about mage post board when I have access to grapeshot as a kill. Given that you have the second kill available from the get-go as well as burning wish=>removal, doesnt this seems like a bit of a wasted slot? I mean, as much of a wasted slot as either a land or a bounce spell would be.
*makes gesture for "comboing off with grapeshot"*
Agreed, with out a way of tutoring for Chain of Vapor, it's simply a wasted slot. I don't see how Cabal Pit helps either since not producing gold mana and having to wait for Threshold turns Meddling Mage and co from an answer into a tempo tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Just stick with Burning Wish or run Thought Seize for Teeg.
This deck can't use it's enablers with a Gaddock on the board, so you might simply be always short on storm for a 2nd kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
EDIT - Yeah, untutorable answers also won't help much.