[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Wouldn't it fit better in UGB rather than UWB, though?

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Well, my thought process was from the direction of which colors give you the best spot removal, and that was clearly black and white (Swords is obvious, and Vindicate is also quite solid, unlike, in my opinion, Putrefy). Elspeth was the second to last card I decided upon; which win condition I ended up using was really not the focus. As for green, Deed is great, but it's at its best in a deck which relies on it to mop up the entire board, which is not this deck -- granted, Deed plus Jace is some nice synergy. And I explicitly didn't want to play Tarmogoyf (in the main deck), but that's partly due to my general perspective on Tarmogoyf in control decks, where it hasn't blown me away, and I know others have had different experiences. My very first experiment on this front was actually a deck which had Jace and Tarmogoyf to protect it, and most of the time what Tarmogoyf did was die, followed by Jace getting eaten by Factories or something. I've found that you either want to play lots of creatures or no creatures, and because I definitely want to play significant amounts of removal, which precludes the former, that leaves no creatures. (For the record, the other card I frequently considered for protecting Tarmogoyf with was Bitterblossom, which doesn't face quite the same difficulties.)

I think the best alternative to white might actually be more black. (Or, possibly, vice versa.) Maybe a small green splash for Deed, and then Goyf in the board for the decks he's good against -- small creature aggro and combo. (Which is more or less disjoint with the set of decks this one is aimed at, i.e. decks with small numbers of large creatures.)

EDIT -- 7/8 Tarmogoyfs were pretty cool. But it's more of a novelty than something of significant worth one should strive to obtain. Oh, and Bitterblossoms would give you 8/9 Tarmogoyfs. Awesome?

Another thing you could do is cut Standstills and Counterspells for Tops and Counterbalances, if you're of the view that Counterbalance is far and away the best card in the format and any deck which could play it and doesn't is worse because of it. (I think the best word for what I am about this is agnostic.) This does leave you dangerously low on the blue card count. I'm not sure if you would also want to cut Factories in this case, because they do at least block. (You could also, I guess, commit sacrilege against the Mana Gods by cutting Brainstorm instead of Standstill.) (If you cut Jace Beleren, that's not highly conducive to building a deck which maximally abuses Jace Beleren.)

Have you taken a look at "TEC"? This list is getting to the point where it is incredibly similar to that deck. I know Nightmare was running it for quite awhile but he seems to have given up on the deck lately although I don't know his reasons. He was running the Goyfs and I agree that going more in the control route is probably a better call but perhaps there is some insight to be gained in looking through that thread.

I remember that deck, but I don't remember it being too similar beyond both decks running Jace, and at one point, Standstills (sans manlands). TEC seems more like a precursor to ITF. This is just Landstill with Jace instead of Fact or whatever else, more spot removal instead of mass removal, and more spot removal instead of whatever other random stuff (Snares, Wishes, etc.). Though, of course, the angle of approach was different (let's build a deck to abuse Jace!), but that's where it ended up.

Nightmare started out in the same boat from what I saw. He utilizes the Counter Top engine with an excessive amount of removal. He didn't run Elspeth, wasn't printed yet, but he ran Hoofprints and goyf as back up win conditions. He also opted for Meditate over Standstill due to Counterbalance partly because of the 3x mana slot and partially because he could get such a solid lock on the game once he stabalized, plus after actual tournament play Standstill turned out to be too much of a liability.

This seems like it is more a control deck that happens to have Factory and Standstill in it rather than an alternative version to Landstill. I've tried the simple switch of going from FoF to Jace and I agree that it isn't the best way to try and expoit Jace nor is it probably the best idea for current versions of Landstill. Your only strength that is playable with Standstill in play is the Factories, where Dreadstill go's for an aggresive combo style win this build seems to go more for a controling slower inevitable win through sheer card advantage. This is just my opinion but I wouldn't consider this or Dreadstill to actually be Landstill varients.

Jace is definetly just sitting there waiting for somebody to do something amazing with it but I honestly think Standstill would be more of a Liability than a boon for this deck. Yes if you are winning the game you can drop Standstill and reap the card advantage, hell i've even played against Goblins running Standstill before. The difference is that in Landstill if you play Standstill with the board clear or even sometimes with something small in play you can still expect to win under Standstill where your opponent cant. For example if you run into UW Landstill packing Decree your entire Standstill draw engine is cut off because you almost are never going to be able to safely play it. This is just my opinion but both TEC and ITF are solid control decks and they don't play Standstill for what appears to me as similar reasons that I wouldn't play it here.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

This seems like it is more a control deck that happens to have Factory and Standstill in it rather than an alternative version to Landstill.

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You're entirely correct about this, of course. It's just that I didn't see how it was all that close to TEC, either, so in its current form it looked more like a Landstill variant to me, comparatively. I didn't get the same removal-centric (especially spot removal centric) and let's-abuse-Jace vibe from TEC, but I guess if you count Tarmogoyf as removal then it's closer.

I did wonder whether Standstill was the next best draw after Jace, but I figured it must be. After all, it's good in GBx Landstill, and they usually don't run Dragons or Decrees either, nor, often, many Wastelands or manlands besides Factories. But it's true that while Standstill is awesome in theory, it does turn to shit in practice against many of the actual decks in the metagame, so maybe something like Meditate (or even Fact) is worth a look. Or Top. The question, then, is what to do about the Factories. Keep running them? Why not? They do at least protect Jace from smaller guys, and chump for a turn against larger ones if necessary. (Not to mention turning opposing Standstills to shit in many cases.) Are there any lands besides Kor Haven which both produce mana and are worth a damn against large creatures (and don't cost infinite mana to activate, like that Azorius one)?

(Relatedly, if this is a control deck which happens to play Standstill but could just as easily not, should I start a new thread for it?)

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/inde...pefilter=Lands

There aren't, unless those threats happen to have shadow. The Kor Haven is actually a pretty brilliant find, considering that search. But I'd like to commend you on the build. It looks very interesting; I'm testing it out on MWS.

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Originally Posted by Illissius

You're entirely correct about this, of course. It's just that I didn't see how it was all that close to TEC, either, so in its current form it looked more like a Landstill variant to me, comparatively. I didn't get the same removal-centric (especially spot removal centric) and let's-abuse-Jace vibe from TEC, but I guess if you count Tarmogoyf as removal then it's closer.

I did wonder whether Standstill was the next best draw after Jace, but I figured it must be. After all, it's good in GBx Landstill, and they usually don't run Dragons or Decrees either, nor, often, many Wastelands or manlands besides Factories. But it's true that while Standstill is awesome in theory, it does turn to shit in practice against many of the actual decks in the metagame, so maybe something like Meditate (or even Fact) is worth a look. Or Top. The question, then, is what to do about the Factories. Keep running them? Why not? They do at least protect Jace from smaller guys, and chump for a turn against larger ones if necessary. (Not to mention turning opposing Standstills to shit in many cases.) Are there any lands besides Kor Haven which both produce mana and are worth a damn against large creatures (and don't cost infinite mana to activate, like that Azorius one)?

(Relatedly, if this is a control deck which happens to play Standstill but could just as easily not, should I start a new thread for it?)

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I would definetly play the Factories, they are very solid in any control based and are invaluable against Goblins especially if you plan on trying to protect Plainswalkers. Wasteland is hit or miss, without Loam, Crucible or Standstill's it's hard to justify playing them unless you want to destroy opposing Factories. I would stick with the color choices giving you Vindicate whitch could substitute the Wastelands in most cases. I think the first and biggest question to ask is whether or not to run Counterbalance? If you are then you have the entire Legacy curve of 1-4 that you should be considering when making card choices. Perhaps a new thread based around a Jace control deck would yield you better results for deck ideas.

I don't know of any other lands that hinder creatures other than Maze of Ith or Tabernacle niether of whitch produce mana. Maze is incredible when paired with Wrath and Tabernacle could be good if paired with Crucible and Wastelands. A freind of mine ran a heavy land based deck with Mazes and Tabernacle that ran Crucible's and Exploration put into a control shell. He was running Belcher Severence as the primary win condition with Factories as his back up. He had alot of success with it and Jace seems like alot better win condition for that style deck than the Belcher combo was.

Does nobody run UWb anymore?

Comming back for a while, I wish to play that.

Here is the list I have sleeved up:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
3 island
2 plains

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice

1 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 standstill


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
1 dismantling blow
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
3 runed halo

I know that Cwish is a little slow for the metagame, but my curve is slightly lower than the older lists, and it is decent utility for only two slots.

The sideboard is meh, but thatz b/c I don't know what my meta is anymore.

Seems fairly standard.

If you're going to run a singleton Wasteland, though, Dust Bowl is much better.

Also, I might drop a Wrath for Elspeth. Talk about an amazingly versatile wincon.

I don't play Top myself, though that seems to be a really player dependant choice. Instead I play another Spell Snare and an Academy Ruins, with a slightly different land configuration.

I also like to have Hydroblasts in the board, but obviously that's meta dependent.

The sensei's were originally a test slot, but they turned out pretty amazing for the deck, as it allows us to hit our landdrops always, helps w/ a crucible/fetch/dragon , and is good under SS.

I really like the addition.

You are right about dustbowl, I should try it.

I dunno about elseph, as I have never played him before... I will try him out though.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Does nobody run UWb anymore?

Comming back for a while, I wish to play that.

Here is the list I have sleeved up:

lands//23
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea
3 island
2 plains

creatures//1
1 eternal dragon

spells//36
4 force of will
3 counterspell
2 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
3 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice

1 crucible of worlds
2 sensei's divining top
4 brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 standstill


sideboard//
3 extirpate
4 meddling mage
1 dismantling blow
1 slaughter pact
1 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
3 runed halo

I know that Cwish is a little slow for the metagame, but my curve is slightly lower than the older lists, and it is decent utility for only two slots.

The sideboard is meh, but thatz b/c I don't know what my meta is anymore.

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From the maindeck

-1 Counterspell
-1 Humility

+1 Spell Snare
+1 Enlighten Tutor


SB:

-1 Slaughter Pact
-1 Dismantling Blow
-2 Pithing Needle
-4 Meddling Mage

+1 Return to Dust
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+4 Counterbalance
+1 Circle of Protection: Red
+1 Tormod's Crypt


Counterbalance is amazing. I'm in the process of playing around with them; Goyfs in the maindeck or not, they're amazing regardless. Personally, I'd cut the Spell Snares in the maindeck for more 2cc cards.

So... made almost all those changes last second (couldn't get: dustbowl, the 3rd spellsnare, or return to dust)...


I played in my first local event in a long time tonight, getting first place, beating (i think in this order):

1. janky RG beatz
2. Reanimator
3. Countersliver
4. stasis (surprisingly good, as it beat both goblins, and 4c landstill, and tied w/ funkbrew b4 playing me for first).


I went 4-0 and got 20$ for my troubles.

I loved all of the newer additions (cb/top, and spell snare)... I think I may come back but am still unsure, as I am in the process of getting rid of almost all of my collection (sans my landstill deck).

Hi!
i've done some testing with my wish-less list (was discussed last month in this thread) and i felt really fine without wish (that is too slow for the present meta). Here's how my list looks like now:

UWb Landstill (Wishless) v1.0 by Luca Bozzato


// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [LRW] Ponder
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

The sb is obv meta dependant, and the sensei's slot can be a o-ring for the occasion. I was really intrigued by the idea of inserting jace in this list, but there i've found some problems/hints.

1) where do I fit jace? ^^ In the list ilisius suggested, jace is another draw engine that substitutes fof or something other but not standstill. Could it be possible to totally eliminate standstill to make room for jace? especially for a deck that, like the one illisius posted, does not run decree. I'm now trying to run 4 still 2 jace (-1ponder-1fof), but i think it's possible to run 3 still 3 jace (completely changing still with jace would also de-value the power of etutor).

2) tolaria west is no more needed, but dust bowl/academy ruins are still tools we can't play without (oh, and jace works well under the recursion of ee/crypt). i could use this slot to improve tutor's toolbox, or some other stuff. it could be a:
-monovindicate
-3rd explo
-nevinyrral's disk
-3rd wrath
-monopithing needle (very useful g1 against lotta things)
-monoisochron scepter (snare, spell, swords)
-mono o-ring
-mono-runed halo

I don't really know which one is the best right now

3) My wincons are really many. jace is synergistic with elspeth and ajani (ithe only landstill i've been beaten by run 3 ajani 2 elspeth...ajani is really good with decree, but i run only 1 decree since my meta is full of landstill and i can't throw it out), really more than standstill.

4) there are interesting conflux card. path to exile is surely the first, and martial coup would have been interesting if it was an instant.

That's all for now, i'll wait for suggestions ^^

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Originally Posted by gustha

1) where do I fit jace? ^^ In the list ilisius suggested, jace is another draw engine that substitutes fof or something other but not standstill. Could it be possible to totally eliminate standstill to make room for jace? especially for a deck that, like the one illisius posted, does not run decree. I'm now trying to run 4 still 2 jace (-1ponder-1fof), but i think it's possible to run 3 still 3 jace (completely changing still with jace would also de-value the power of etutor).

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An option is to cut a Ponder for an FoF.

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2) tolaria west is no more needed, but dust bowl/academy ruins are still tools we can't play without (oh, and jace works well under the recursion of ee/crypt). i could use this slot to improve tutor's toolbox, or some other stuff. it could be a:
-monovindicate
-3rd explo
-nevinyrral's disk
-3rd wrath
-monopithing needle (very useful g1 against lotta things)
-monoisochron scepter (snare, spell, swords)
-mono o-ring
-mono-runed halo

I don't really know which one is the best right now

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Run a 3rd EE. EEs are really good.

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3) My wincons are really many. jace is synergistic with elspeth and ajani (ithe only landstill i've been beaten by run 3 ajani 2 elspeth...ajani is really good with decree, but i run only 1 decree since my meta is full of landstill and i can't throw it out), really more than standstill.

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Landstill mirrors are the reason why you should be running 2-3 DoJs. Not to mention DoJ gets around counters. Also, DoJs help win so many mirrors, it's absurd.

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4) there are interesting conflux card. path to exile is surely the first, and martial coup would have been interesting if it was an instant.

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It's probably a bad card to run in this sort of deck. Giving the opponent card advantage as well as a tempo boost isnt what you want to see. I especially dont want to be casting this card against an aggro deck like Vial Goblins.

1) nor ponder nor fof do satisfy me
2) 3rd EE is surely good, i run 3ee till last year. With tolaria gone, it's surely a good thing to do. Also needle is never a dead card.
3) elspeth replaces doj, that's too slow for my tastes. 2 doj are good if paired with 2-3 ajani. the slot of tolaria can be the 2nd doj, but it does not satisfy me, especially since planeswalkers are a better wincon (and EE@0 resolves others' doj). This morning i chose hoofsprint of the stag as the filler for tolaria slot. it's synergistic with lotta things.
4) path to exile didn't excite me too...i'm not telling it's a f**king good card for landstill, only that we might have some thoughts about it. doubts on martial coup already expressed. ^^

Hey guys I'm looking to play landstill but just UW. Is it still viable?\

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Island (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [IA] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [8E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Its more of a brainstorm, I haven't tested it and would like your input if you have it. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia

Hey guys I'm looking to play landstill but just UW. Is it still viable?\

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Island (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [A] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [IA] Counterspell
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [8E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo

Its more of a brainstorm, I haven't tested it and would like your input if you have it. Thanks

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Engineered Explosive's can be fairly weak with only 2 colors but outside of that the deck looks viable. My list is primarily Blue/White with Black only for MD Vindicates and Plague in the SB. Without a 3rd Color I'd probably run some kind of Disenchant effect, Probably Dismantaling Blow in the SB. I see the 1x Scrubland so you may be able to get away with the EE but it seems abit risky to me. Perhaps add a Trop or something just to give you access to more reliable use from Explosives.

I loved running UW landstill with one MB trop to up the usefulness of EE. The manabase is beautifully stable (I only ever got screwed a few times, and they were fluke-y draws), and crucible is just broken in this format. Runed Halo from the board is also as amazing as one might think. I don't know if I'd run elspeths, though; Decree and E. Dragon are such good kill conditions. A couple of thoughts: if you rely on humility over wrath of god, you become very vulnerable to aggro decks running Kgrip post board, so I'd suggest no less than 3 Wrath effects with maybe one or two humility. Fact or fiction is amazing as well; the more you can do on your opponent's end step the better.

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

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I'm a pretty big fan of Spell Snare, it's a solid card against the majority of decks that give you trouble and the slower decks where it isn't as relevent are usually in your favor already.

The only real problem with the new swords is that STP is better for Landstill and it doesn't deal with Goose. I could see running 1-2 copies in builds that don't run Black or possably running it as a Wish target. Running any more than that would just make Goose worse for Landstill. The tempo disadvantage of the card can be a very big drawback, for instance using it on a turn one Lackey against Goblins while still getting rid of Lackey is good the extra Mana excell you give them is a pretty big drawback.

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

I loved running UW landstill with one MB trop to up the usefulness of EE. The manabase is beautifully stable (I only ever got screwed a few times, and they were fluke-y draws), and crucible is just broken in this format. Runed Halo from the board is also as amazing as one might think. I don't know if I'd run elspeths, though; Decree and E. Dragon are such good kill conditions. A couple of thoughts: if you rely on humility over wrath of god, you become very vulnerable to aggro decks running Kgrip post board, so I'd suggest no less than 3 Wrath effects with maybe one or two humility. Fact or fiction is amazing as well; the more you can do on your opponent's end step the better.

Tell me how you like spell snare in that build, I never got a chance to test it out.

Also, what do y'all think of the new swords? This deck seems like the sort that could really make use of 8 STP's, especially against Team America which plays 0 basics.

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What would you run in the 2 elspeth slots? I have 3 wrath effects. I might put FoF in those slots. Idk tho. And I will throw in a trop to then.