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Liliana is a fine card on her own... You don't need anything to support her. Like has been said, we have arguably the best top decks in the format, and she gets you there. Even just game 1 she seals the game up for you. And she is better than a lot of things due to her being solid against anything
That's fine that we can top deck Titans, but its not going to stop combo from going off on turn 1-3. Liliana's slow and untargetted discard against combo is no better than a Raven's crime on turn 2 or 3, and Raven's Crime is certainly not keeping Show and Tell or Ad Naseum in control these days. She alone will not get you to top deck mode against combo decks because you'll be dead before she gets even 5 counters.
However, Liliana along with extra targeted discard spells (need more than just Cabal Therapy) might be good for helping those of us in combo metas survive games 2 and 3, since we can target win cons or enablers first (T1 Duress/Thoughtseize, T2 Therapy) and then have Liliana keep consistent pressure until we can finish the game.
I intend on going back to straight GB tomorow and I would apreciate some feedback or ideas on a Living Wish package. Here is my expected list:
Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Tsunami
Thrun is experimental. I want to wish for Karakas and test him against Miracle.
Last night I played some pre and bost board games with a normal GBw version against the top 8 miracle Ghent countertop deck. If anyone else is running GBw and has cut Thrun, you are going to be tough pressed to beat the miracle countertop deck. They have 3 Jaces and a counterbalance curve that goes from 1 to 6 (terminus). As mentioned by another previous poster, it is imperative to resolve a deeds and keep it on the board, because EOT Angels will kill us.
Qweerios:
Vampire Hexmage might be useful as a Living Wish target, primarily to deal with problematic Planeswalkers (jace)...
I was wondering why there is no arbor, it would seem that the acceleration from gsz would be useful, plus you can fetch one whenever to avoid taking damage or saccing something you don't want.
Also. why don't you run force in the blue deck, at least in the side maybe?
Sorry if these are silly questions or they've been addressed.
Okay, I'm far past the point of repeating answers to the same questions and concerns over and over again. I'm going to focus on the primer for now, and when someone who has proven their loyalty the thread asks for advice.
To-wit, Qweerios:
Metamorph seems like it overlaps in purpose with Karakas an awful lot. What are you intending on using the Metamorph for? Copying a Batterskull or some such?
Macabre doesn't seem very good because they're going to know you have it. Reanimator will likely just Thoughtseize it and then go off anyway, and vs Dredge, it isn't going to do enough. I'd consider a Yixlid Jailer.
Other than that, it looks fairly solid, although I'd caution you to run at least 3 or pref. the full 4 Wishes, or you'll be disappointed in them. If you had like one or two hate cards and a bomb in your board, then two would be fine -- but the way you have it configured atm, I don't think that two is going to be enough.
@Boogie,
Ramping with Dryad via GSZ isn't really an option. We don't keep 1 land hands like Mav and a GSZ @1 will get u the explorer you need instead. Dryad isn't bad in the GB version but it is certainly bad in the tricolored ones. It acts mostly as an emergency Therapy body but mostly its just a summoning sick nonbasic forest that dies to removal and Deed. I would definitely pack one if I intend to play with Recurring Nightmare though.
I don't think SB FoW is a good idea because there isn't many good maindeck blue cards for Nic Fit, therefore, there is rarely ever anything to pitch to it unless you have a blue core. As a SB option, Pierce, Fluster, and Negate are all better.
@FinnF,
Oh yeah, I definitely want Hexmage somewhere in there. Perhaps instead of Finks.
@Arianrhod,
Metamorph also works against Progenitus and is also an out to Sigarda. I like Macabre because I can side it in as GY hate G2 and still have Bog as a wish target. It is also uncounterable and I can use it the moment I choose to wish (T2 vs reanimator), so no more EoT Entomb followed by T2 Exhume. As for the number of wishes, I only really want Wish for silver bullets. Some of the wish targets like Macabre, Finks, Shriek, and Ichneumon are all cards I can side in without worrying about having nothing to wish for that would be relevant to the MU except for storm where I side in Ichneumon Druid and wish for ? Lodestone Golem, maybe?
Metamorph can kill Emrakul and Progentitus. I was about to suggest Fleshbag Marauder for the same purpose but Metamorph seems a better fit.
Why would you have to worry about Sigarda? Is there some asshole Maverick playing running her? Progenitus is a valid complaint, although I'd think that Liliana and I.Blood would take care of that problem.
I feel that since you're running wish for silver bullets, that actually means you want more of them than if you were running it just for more threat density. Those bullets are so powerful that you want them early against the relevant decks.
What about a slight, slight white splash? I'm thinking specifically of Canonist and Kataki, which are both really powerful hosers. Canonist would allow you to side in Ichneumon for GSZ, and then have a wish target. It would also open up Teeg, if you wanted to go that route. I'm not suggesting anything more than the slightest of splashes....like one Savannah and one Plains, maybe. Seems much better than Lodestone, in any event.
I would take Thalia and Teeg before Canonist but overall, yes, a white dual land could allow me to pack those. I agree that Prog is really not an issue for our deck but I do struggle against Sigarda when I encounter her. However, you make a good point with the overlap and I will probably cut Metamorph. If I do splash white (Savannah + Plains or something like that), then I won't want Ichneumon Druid at all since I will have access to Teeg and Thalia.
A friend of mine who is an extremely good control and counterbalance player plays almost the same list and i'm having real big problems beating the deck, i figured it would be 45/55 or 40/60 but it seems even worse. Postboard gets a little bit better but still not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by conboy31
Miracle is nearly impossible to beat without Planeswalkers.
If you really want to be an asshole, you can run Silklash Spider in the board. Block Sigarda all day long and wipe out every Entreat token to boot.
Or Arashi, the Sky Asunder if you don't want to bother with your trump card getting countered, which I've used hilariously against Splinter Twin in Modern.
How did your experiment turn out? Your comments focus only on creature-less combo (Storm, High Tide, Belcher) and not Sneak-a-Fattie-into-Play (Sneak and Show / Reanimator). Liliana's -2 is highly relevant against the s-a-f-i-p decks, especially they're non-hasted fatties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
The fact that Liliana is permanent also makes a big difference. If you can 'lock' a combo player at a maximum hand size, it can really slow them down. And if turn 2 Liliana is too slow, it seems turn 3 (?) Cranial effects would also be would also be too slow. The Cranial effects against Storm don't impress me. Unless you are playing against straight UB ANT with 1 Tendrils, the storm decks have alternative kill conditions plus Burning Wish (Cranial doesn't touch their sideboard). They have Empty the Warrens, Grapeshot, Tendrils (plus another one in the sideboard). Cranial just seems damn slow and if I'm playing a deck like High Tide and you turn 2 burning wish for a cranial, you better believe I'm going to dig like hell for a Force of Will on my next turn. I can't think of any deck slow enough and linear enough for Cranial to have a game-ending impact.
I agree. Against a combo deck with a good draw, there is not much we can do, but there is not much any non-blue deck can do. Again, these comments do not mention the Emrakuls and Griselbrands of the world. Liliana serves two purposes - untargetable, constant discard and creature sacrifice. In the current environment, both abilities are relevant. If the environment shifts away from s-a-f-i-p and Lil's -2 is no longer as relevant, I will happily replace her with Hymn to Tourach, which is very good against creatureless combo strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Qweerios - just wanted to say thanks for this. I've wondered the same thing myself (why Dryad Arbor didn't see play). Your answer makes a lot of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Does Thragtusk help out in this match up? If the UW player is going to Terminus, at least we have a 3/3 in play. Admittedly, I have not played this match up, but it seems like GSZing for Thragtusk (preferably with a Phyrexian Tower open to prevent exile) would be a decent road to victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I noticed you're running Tsunami (over Choke). I understand the non-bo of Choke and Deed, however, how often are we Deeding above 2 in the UW match up? Batterskull, Vendilion Clique, O-Ring, Sword of Feast and Famine? It seems like Batterskull and Sword of Feast and Famine are the only targets we would want to hit at 3 or above. Therefore, it seems most Deeds would be for 2 in order to remove Counterbalance, Stoneforge Mystic, and Snapcaster Mage. Tsunami seems more susceptible to Spell Pierce, but I guess Choke is more susceptible to Disenchant. I'm curious on your thoughts on this.
For those experiencing difficulty with the UW match-up, has anyone run the Jund version of the deck? It seems the extra Pyroblasts may be helpful. However, it seems like what is really needed is an answer to Terminus. Thragtusk is a solution. Planeswalkers are good. Any other suggestions?
Thanks,
W_W
I'm running the Jund version, but I haven't gotten to test it yet. The burn spells make you a bit better against Jace. And i feel like it gives Me better match ups across the board, but does make me weaker to wasteland
I chose Tsunami over Choke because explorer extracts lands from an opponent. Once your opponent has a considerable amount of lands on the field, 1 Tsunami often leaves your opponent with too few lands in his deck for all the fetches. Tsunami is also better against High Tide because of their low land count (17-19 lands) and because they can operate without an untap step.
Miracle is difficult because they have a wide range of CMC on their spells for CB, they play a lot of Jaces, and all of the cards you want them to discard are part of the top 3 cards of their deck. There is no other way to beat them than to apply pressure, and with a slow control deck like ours we need cards like Elspeth and Garruk. Thragtusk isn't good enough, Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda are all better against Miracle.
Thank you for the Tsunami explanation. It makes sense and I will give it a test run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Regarding the UW match up, Liliana still has her ultimate ability, which can and does add up. I agree regarding the Planeswalkers, I believe they are essential to this match up. However, the other creatures you list (Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda) all have hexproof / shroud, but I don't understand how this helps vs. Terminus. Thragtusk is going to leave behind a 3/3 after Terminus, plus he can be GSZ'd out again. Heck, even if they exile him, you are still getting a 3/3.
You prefer Garruk Relentless over Garruk Wildspeaker?
Why not try a Persecutor in the SB? He's really quite strong in a lot of MU's, great against Delver, etc. Second, you should really, really have some un-counterable creature in the SB (probably Thrun, but maybe Vexing Shrusher or Gaea's Revenge?). Otherwise, blue players just let your Wish resolve and counter the creature (in general). Third, doesn't a playset of Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapies seem a bit much for discard? Consider dropping a Thoughtseize for another Garruk or another Wish. Just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Grave Titan fills the bomb slot well enough it looks like. Persecutor does bring up the good need for more anti-aerial tech, but I dont think he fits a pressing silver bullet need.
Extra discard is what helps the GB fight our bad match ups, not to mention the ones with the counter magic for the Living Wish.
The only Garruk worth mentioning for this deck is Primal Hunter. His effects are too powerful if you can afford the time and cost to set him up.
Shroud is the most relevant feature of any creature against UW Miracle. They still pack StP + Snap so we have to force them into Terminus to keep anything on the board.
I don't understand why you would use up most of your sideboard in order to play a 2-of in the maindeck. Surely 4x Green Sun's Zenith is enough creature tutor utility.
Planeswalkers are great, especially against the control decks. I almost am a fan of GBU to just play Jace because he's that good, but that's a reasonable strain on the manabase :P (I suppose a single Trygon Predator is not a bad Zenith target too.)
I'll be trying out a one of Primal Hunter this Wednesday. Hopefully he does work, because he seems sweet, but his mana cost seems so prohibitive in a 3 color deck
How firm do you feel about Tsunami? Why not run additional Planeswalkers? It seems like Planeswalkers may win you the game, while Tsunami is more about not losing it. Tsunami still leaves Plains, Karakas, Glacial Fortress, etc. behind. What are your thoughts on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Tsunami is a beast. I'll quote this from Arianhod since I asked a similar question last month:
Planeswalkers will have nice little Bitterblossom effects if you don't have a board state (which is usually how you are against UW Miracles, apparently), generally making low yet consistent on a late game board. They're certainly strong, but won't have a game shattering influence on the board.Quote:
Oh, I know which one's better, and the answer is Tsunami by a mile. Blue players are very aware of Choke, since Maverick's been pushing their ass in with it for the better part of a year now, and while it does hurt them, they can usually find ways to squirrel their way out of it (ie, Sword of Feast and Famine untapping all of their shit). Tsunami is so much better vs High Tide it's not even funny, and it is actually functionally a win condition vs a lot of blue decks....especially late in the game when they've got most of their mana-producing lands out of their deck already. Decks that run the 8x fetch 4x Waste 8x mana-producing lands type of mana base are especially weak to Tsunami, because they literally have no ability to do -anything- after a Tsunami lands, whereas if you have Choke out, they can usually find a way to Disenchant it or some other bs. Sword is an aforementioned problem, especially since that card is already good vs us. I'll be honest -- I also really like the psychological warfare effect that Tsunami has on an opponent. If Choke is out, it can actually make your opponent more alert as they frantically try to find a way out of it. Tsunami just makes them feel defeated as they sit there with maybe one or two permanents in play compared to your board state. It can often actually win games just from the demoralization factor alone. Additionally, Tsunami is very hard to counterbalance, which is sometimes relevant. Sure, Rector's hard to as well, but I don't like leaning on Rector too heavily because I'm always worried that my opponent will know her achilles heel....which like maybe 15% of legacy players ACTUALLY know, but I still worry about it. Tsunami's done a whole lot of work for me when the meta's right for it (which, being legacy, it frequently is). I'd definitely recommend trying it out before dismissing it out of hand.
Tsunami will make it impossible for them to win, especially considering how mana hungry UW Miracles can be.
Seems to me that Cranial Extraction (and its brother) should be beastly vs Miracles as well. Jace, Terminus, and Entreat are all solid targets. It's worth pointing out that all of these cards cost 4 (Rector, Tsunami, Cranial). This can serve as a passive deterrent to Jace, because they'll have to keep him floating around the top of their deck rather than casting him. Also, it's very much worth remembering Extirpate for the mandatory shuffle. If they're activating a draw off of Top, it doesn't really matter what random thing is in their graveyard -- make them get rid of it! It also strands them with a 1-drop on top for CB, if you're trying to resolve something. If we make it to the lategame and they don't have a CB=3 floating around, Nightmare's card advantage will absolutely wreck them. I mean, if you're really worried about Miracle Whip, you could also run some Explosives alongside Deed. It dodges CB like a champ (and/or can come down @0 before CB lock is established).
I agree as far as the planeswalkers are concerned. Elspeth and big Garruk are the two best for generating board state, although Elsepth only really becomes a clock with a dude already in play. Both of them still give the Miracle Whip player plenty of time to set up a lethal EoT ETA, and while Elspeth is decent at fighting Jace, I don't think that either is really amazing in the matchup.
Sigarda and Thragtusk are both where you want to be in the matchup. Thrun is still useless. Sigarda is bigger than an ETA token, can't be Swordsed or Jaced, and swings for huge chunks over the astonished head of Tiago. She can be Terminus'd, but if she's your only creature in play, so what. You can Zenith her out again, and if you force them to use one of their draw steps (or a Top trigger) for a 1-for-1, you're winning. 'Tusk is the same way, although he leaves a beater behind. It's worth remembering that if you're scared of Swords on your 'Tusk, leave your Phyrexian Tower open. Seems like most Miracle lists don't run Wasteland, so Tower should do a good job of protecting from Swords.
By the by - this weekend I had a combo player try to Surgical my Cranial Extractions again. If you aren't running the 1/1 split with Memoricide, I strongly recommend it. Combo players really, REALLY don't like that effect, and they -will- strive their utmost to get rid of it.
In addition to Cranial Extraction and Memoricide, which are beasts don't forget Sadistic Sacrement. In some match ups removing 3 (or 15) cards spells GG most of the time.
Nobody responded later, maybe because it was a stupid question I don't know, but should Griselbrand get any love in this deck?
/PollePotDK
Sorry -- I didn't notice it. The issue with Sad Sac is the triple black mana cost. While it packs much more of a punch lategame, Cranial can do the same thing looped sufficiently with Eternal Witness, and is so, so much easier to cast in the early turns. Being able to take different cards is good and all, but you can only take 3 with SadSac, which is a problem. This isn't Vintage, where taking their Time Vault, Yawg Will, and Tinker Robot is pretty sweet. If you SadSac High Tide, they still have a Time Spiral left. Sneak still has a Sneak. Etc. There's too many 4-ofs in legacy for SadSac to work well IMO.
Griselbrand is seeing some play in the 4cc Gifts version I've been working on -- Gifts-> Rites + GriselB is pretty sweet. That version is still really rough, though. As for other versions....it's a little tricky to hardcast, although it can obviously be done. BBBB is rough, not the fact that it costs 8. The other problem is that the meta is kind of prepared for him at the moment, which is why he's nice in the Gifts version with Rites....you can always grab Sun Titan or some other obnoxious fatty instead, if your opponent has Karakas. As it stands, Karakas is basically dead vs us (can't target Sigarda). No reason to make it live, when it's all over the place right now. I think that if you want a big fat 7+ black creature, Rune-Scarred Demon is probably everything you want but better.
I've thought of throwing Sac in the sideboard as a means for hurting Progentitus decks. The NO/Prog deck told me after I Cranialed for Progenitus that he thought about siding out Prog for Terastodon...but I guess the correct play was to Cranial for Natural Order anyway. Otherwise I agree on the BBB and 3 vs 4 ordeal. It might be better in a GB version that capitalizes on mana ramp (Culling the Weak!) to get crazy mana early and cripple any deck out there.
I've tried Griselbrand in Rector but his high cost and BBBB are hard to come by even for us, and games where I swapped him directly for Grave Titan I would inevitably draw Griselbrand with 6 mana open. Again, GB for massive mana could probably use him, but the deck is by and large much different than the typical Nic Fit deck slung around these parts.
Good point on the 1/1 split, I never really understood why you did that, haha.
Alright folks, I've got something pretty sweet for you. I uploaded what I've got complete of the Nic Fit Complete Primer to pastebin. It's unfinished, but I figured that rather than make you all wait another month while I work on it, I'd let you guys see where it's at.
Without further ado:
http://pastebin.com/vnuGCS3S
Enjoy!
Maybe its just in my meta it makes sense - vs ANT/TES, Micracle or Enchantress it works wonders and triple black has never been a problem. I also run 2 Phyrexian Towers because the ramp it gives is insane.
Being able to take out Key spells, thats 1-2 offs wincons/lock pieces makes sense to me.
I agree with you ón Griselbrand.
/PollePotDK
Nice update! I would prefer that you put the deck archtypes first and their explanations , then delve into determining what cards are good and why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Love that you start it off with the Fit Rant. Looks great!
After a brief going over the beginning (at work, sadly) you reminded me that New Frontiers exists...might have to see if its applicable to anything I have brewing.
Kevin,
Your primer was really, really good. I read through the whole thing and I appreciate you releasing it before you finished the lower sections. It does a great job tracking the evolution of the deck and discussing the strengths and weaknesses of certain variations of the deck, including the benefits/drawbacks of the inclusions of certain cards. A big thank you!
What does everyone think of running Sarkhan Vol or Sarkhan the Mad in the Jund version as a 5th or 6th planeswalker? Assuming 2/3 Liliana, 1/2 Garruk, Primal Hunter (probably 3 PWs main and another 2 in the board). I've considered running Sarkhan Vol in the main. The haste ability is relevant, especially off of a GSZ. The creature steal ability is also relevant and can throw off blocking math in a creature mirror (and can be really good with P. Tower or Cabal Therapy), and the -6 seems highly relevant vs. control decks.
Additionally, Sarkhan the Mad seemed good with Top. His 0 ability appears to be a free card each turn (assuming land), or at worst, you flip your top and draw it for -1. StM's -2 could be useful vs. fatties, similar to Liliana's ability, although not as good. However, the -2 could also be used on your own creatures (say, saccing a Veteran Explorer for a 5/5 dragon). Finally, with Broodmate Dragon, the -4 ability is 8 to the dome, which is a nice alternative kill. I'm not a huge fan of StM, because he can't grow, but I guess that's why he's Mad.
After reading Qweerios post about Planeswalkers being necessary in the UW matchup, I got a little scarred and decided I needed to add some Planeswalkers (besides Liliana) to my list.
Here's my latest Jund build:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Broodmate Dragon
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
SB:
4 REB/Pyroblast
4 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Memoricide
2 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
Should I cut the 4th GSZ for Scavenging Ooze? Unfortunately I don't have Thragtusk available so far, that card is pretty good from what I've heard.
Is Liliana of the Veil better than the 1-of Diabolic Edict? I have been a bit disappointed by Liliana recently...
Qweerios,Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
thank you for your ardent criticism, which has a lot of merit.
Coming from playing BUG Control, the first iteration of the blue list by Arianrhod drew me to Nic Fit because it seemed to solve a lot of problems I had with BUG, especially the dreaded situations in which you had a full grip but not the mana to cast stuff / blow stuff up with deed because you wastelanded your opponent and didn't find a Loam. Hence, I thought the Explorer/Therapy engine would really help getting faster to a point at which I would be able to cast my answers (especially around Daze and Spell Pierce).
Arianrhod pretty much nailed it when he said that I am actually looking to rework BUG Control using the Explorer/Therapy engine, and that's what I'm planning on doing. I don't know whether that's a viable route, but I am willing to find out. I feel that your deck wants to be doing something different from my deck (and that my idea is way more questionable, but I'm a little stubborn)
The other thing is, that traditional BUG Control does an awful lot of 1 on 1 trading until it can control the game. With Explorer/Therapy, Deed, Strix, Witness, a lot of plays are 2 for 1s. Building a BUG Control list on the foundations of Nic Fit looks pretty appealing to me.
I will test a few things next week and report on the results, since I still think that the core of the deck is Nic Fit. Since I want to be able to win with Jace, I need counters maindeck. I also want Vendilion Clique for a little more beats and midgame Therapies. I also agree on 4 Brianstorm possibly being too much. I may try a split.
RE: Primer. What a monster of a primer. Awesome work. Thank you, Arianrhod.
And it isn't even done yet =) Thanks all.
@Wortwelt -- I really like the idea of Clique alongside Therapy. Seems pretty hot midgame. I will also caution you, though -- being -able- to win with Jace is fine, but in the Nic Fit style of deck, he's often better served as a Brainstorm-bot, because your other cards tend to win faster. If time is an issue as you develop and test, keep that in mind.
@Alexeezay -- I like the Bonfires. I have a feeling you're going to side them out a lot, but they're still pretty nifty. Also, imagine the look on your opponent's (and everyone around you) face when you Top a Bonfire after your opponent Tops an Entreat. D'oh!
Edict is better than Liliana if you're -strictly- looking for a sacrifice card, because you can regrow it with Witness without having to eat a card to Lily in the process. However, Lily only has to nom once to be a second Edict. I kind of think she wins the fight against Edict, honestly.
I feel like if I were to cut anything for the Ooze, it would be Wickerbough. You have Pulse and Deed for artifact and enchantment concerns....I don't think you need a dude that kills those things too.
@W_W -- you don't want either Sarkhan if you're specifically worried about Miracle Whip. Vol is better vs like Show and Tell I guess? To hilarious effect. The Mad seems good vs Stoneblade as a functional draw engine. Even in those matchups, however, I'm not sure that you can't just do better. Pretty sure Primal Hunter is just the best there is for vs Stoneblade and Miracles....+1 to make a 3/3 generates board presence really fast, and if they've got you out-attritioned, you can draw a bunch of cards off of him and get gas back.
Thanks, and makes sense. I'm going to try a few different configurations this weekend. I also considered Karn for that slot. The 7 colorless mana doesn't seem too prohibitive and Karn is nice because it provides colorless removal, a 'discard' effect, and it has the ability to restart the game (although I've always found after I got Karn at high enough loyalty to restart the game, the +4's usually rendered a game reset unnecessary).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Randomly, I've been playing against aggro-creature decks online (Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins) and I haven't dropped a game (6-0, 3-0). Deed and 2 Damnations from the board just prove too powerful.
Admittedly, I've not been able to test the combo match or control match.
Against the combo match, I've been debating the number of non-Therapy discard effects to run in the main/board. I was running 4 Lightning Bolts / 2 Thoughtseize main, but I recently switched to 3 Lightning Bolts / 3 Thoughtseize, based mainly our of fear for combo match ups. I also run the 4th Thoughtseize in the board.
Qweerios comments scarred me into running additional Planeswalkers. I was running 3 Liliana. Now I'm between 2/3 Liliana, 1/2 Garruk, and the possibility of 1 Sarkhan or Karn (3 main / 2 board). I don't like Tsunami in the board, so I'm considering replacing those slots with additional Planeswalker. Admittedly, Tsunami is better than Choke. However, it falls victim to the same anti-tech run by UW decks. In order to beat Choke, UW decks are running Glacial Fortress and other non-island lands. Because we don't run Wasteland, Glacial Fortress is good. I would rather draw a Planeswalker and have a proactive chance at victory vs. drawing a Tsunami and having a reactive chance at not losing.
Hello fellow Nic-Fitters,
I have a simple, and somewhat noobish, question for discussion.
How proper is it to cut some number of Cabal Therapies games 2/3 vs. Aggro decks or creature-based decks like Maverick? I realize the synergy between Therapy and Veteran Explorer, however, when your opponent's deck is based around bashing you for 20 with creature attacks, we can usually chump with Explorer to trigger his effect. Additionally, vs. decks like Affinity, they are unlikely to be holding any cards in their hands.
Assuming we win game 1, how appropriate is it to remove 2 Cabal Therapies on the draw vs. Affinity, Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, Burn, or Maverick, assuming we will add them back in on the play?
In a nutshell, is it ever proper to board out some number of Cabal Therapy, even if you will board them back in when you are on the play? Or, are a full playset of Cabal Therapie and Veteran Explorers so essential to the deck that they are never touched? (However, Veteran Explorers come out vs. certain decks like High Tide - what other decks to Veteran Explorers come out against? Do we board out Veteran vs. the Mirror?)
I nearly always keep my full Cabal Therapy package game 2 against aggro decks. For two main reasons :
1. I don't think I have cards that improve my matchup against aggro decks in my sideboard (because Nic Fit naturally IS an aggro creature-based deck killer). The only exceptions are the Red Elemental Blasts that I side in against Merfolk in the red version of Nic Fit.
2. A Cabal Therapy T1 is always a great move game 2 : you already know your opponent's main threats. And even if you don't hit, you get information, and the Cabal in the graveyard is of course never a dead card. And to be honest, I don't always have the chance to have a Veteran Explorer or a Top in my opening hand, so it's sometimes my only T1 spell :)