[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

The short answer is yes, head to game 2. But by playing needles, maxing out on crop rotation, and playing extra library manipulation, my list does have some game against combos G1. Also, I don't ever shave any of my 4 MD SnT, and Candles, which actually puts me in a threatening position early. Aside from omni, there's MD blow out cards for every combo deck, so identify them ASAP and look for that repeal on chrome mox, haha. Your hand would need a very good reason to not have brainstorm or top in it G1, blind. I do like the idea of playing revoker, and if you think about it, rock lees revoker+surgical is very, very similar in effect to trinket+needle+FOW. I'm not sure how much more favorable revoker over needle can make G1. Rock what do you feel?

Rock's lists are always more up on the meta, while I tend to keep mine more catch-all. Since the format seems to be expanding, I added the trinket package - which would appeal to you. But IMO, if you're "facing a little but of everything", play Force of Will. Unfortunately, that card warps the 75 towards my build to support it. That being said, you could take the blue/artifacts in mine and add some revokers, and try it out... I am right now :)

But in conclusion, g2+3 with my board generally goes very well against combo. It takes forever, but our weekly always has so much combo and I usually do just fine. It's funny though Rock Lee and I play in the same area and don't quite understand how each other gets through combo - wicked different lines (oracle, haha).

We should all collectively do a SB primer and discussion.

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Tim and I really have taken the deck into different hate-avenues, both of which work, showing the raw power of the deck.

I think Revoker main is a meta call that gives you a stronger game versus sneaky show, Storm, and elves, but leaves you vulnerable to Wasteland and revoker-less combo decks where FOW would be stronger, ie Belcher, Omni, Dredge.

I beat Combo by attacking with a 2/1 for 10 turns, no lie. Tim beats it similarly, with Glen Elendra and Oracle, so sacrificing early advantage in the form of FOW for late advantage in multi-card advantage 4 drops. Both plans work great, I just have a preference for the revoker's consistency, but I am certainly aware of its weaknesses and how it is an extreme meta call.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

@kingtk3 The UG Post Conservative Party approves your message, lol. I like the streamlined MD and the SB is my same style, I'm also looking at MbT again. With the heavy blue SB I really think you need 4 Tops to keep the hate flowing. Combo MU needs card selection + density to maintain advantage. At first glance the Marit Lage is overkill, but it is low commitment so hell let us know how it goes! I personally feel like I have all the offense I'll ever need. Also, with mages chalice on zero is soooo nice, consider it!

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Nice to join the club, do you have some cookies there? Lol.

Reguarding top: there's an old saying in magic that states that if you want to see a card in every game in multiple play 4 copies, but if you want to see a card in every game but not like to draw multiples then play 3. I think top is one of those cards, since every copy after the first is basically a cantrip if you have a shuffle effect, otherwise it doesn't have a big impact: just to be clear, the second it's not very bad because you can find some applications (for example there may be a turn where you would need 2 cards from the top of the deck) but I find the other cards on the list more useful.
Moreover it can also be fetched by trinket mage in case the opponent gets rid of it (krosan grip, decay with a shuffle effect on the stack, ...).

Since you mention the combo matchup, in theory the depths combo should improve it since you can side out most of the win conditions (S&T, Eldrazi, Titans, whatever needed), side in more control elements (counters, needles and the like) and still have a 2 card win condition in the deck. Moreover it should be also faster than the other win conditions which can matters.

This brings me to the next point: sideboard strategies. Given my list list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post800919) what should be your sideboard plans? I'd say:

Jund: +2 baloth, +1 needle, -1 candelabra, -1 emrakul, -1 show and tell, maybe -1 bojuka, +1 surgical
Reasons: baloth for liliana and hymn, needle for DRS, liliana and wasteland

RUG: +1 needle, -1 karakas, maybe -1 bojuka, +1 surgical
Reasons: Karakas is unuseful, needle protects against wasteland which is the biggest threat. I would like to side in the flusterstorm too (mainly for stifle), but I don't know what to side out

BUG delver: +1 needle, -1 karakas
Reasons: needle is for DRS, wasteland and liliana. I would like to bring in the baloth but I don't know what to side out, maybe trinket?

Miracle: +1 needle, +3 surgical, -1 candelabra, -1 depths, -1 thespian, -1 repeal
Reasons: we are not in a hurry and they don't play wasteland, so candelabra is not needed. Depths combo is not so strong because of swords and terminus with brainstorm/top. Needle is for jace (and topthers if they play it), surgical is for snapcaster but mainly for messing with their brainstorm and tops and miracles. Question: do you name top with needle if you don't have one in play?

Reanimator: +4 swan song, +2 flusterstorm, +3 surgical, -1 needle, -2 trinket, -2 repeal, -4 show and tell
Reasons: I'd leave 2 repeals and the explosives in for their pithing needles

Lands: +3 surgical, +1 needle, -1 explosives, ... please help T_T

Any help is appreciated.

Ps: Tim, What would you take out for chalice of the void?

I think Sensei's Divining Top is one of those cards where you hate running 4 and would rather run 3 but you have to run 4 because it is a counter magnet and is a huge player in some matchups such as Jund or BUG.

Generally when I play vs. Combo my goal isn't to try and win, but rather to try and survive until you can just outright win and there's no possibility for them to come back. Depths combo just seems like it takes up too much space and isn't even really that good because it's a bit too slow vs. combo. I would much rather play it in a deck dedicated to winning that way. If you can get 30 mana to get the Marit Lage, then I would just get Emrakul for 2/3 of that mana.

My opinions on your board strategies:

Jund: I disagree with boarding out Candelabra, it is a decay magnet but they have to decay it or risk losing because the card is just THAT potent. This allows yourself a chance for the needles to survive. I would never board out Emrakul in any matchup, it is simply too good as a win condition. I think I would also board out Show and Tell for the Flusterstorm and Obstinate Baloth to help with Hymn to Tourach and such. I usually wish G1 that the Show and Tells were Flusters and Baloths game 1.

RUG: Karakas isn't completely dead because it helps with the infinite combo with emrakul which is relevant in some cases. Also if you do the math there are only 20 lands that tap for mana in the deck. Karakas is a source of mana that enters untapped and is generally pretty good. Not worth boarding it out for Needles which isn't even that good in the matchup. I also wouldn't board out Bojuka Bog because it is relevant vs. Goyf and Mongoose.

Miracles: This is one of our best matchups and we probably don't even need to board but we board because why the hell not. I disagree with some things you said though. Candelabra IS relevant because they are going to board in Back to Basics and also allows us to accelerate faster. Needles is ok to board in in place of Engineered Explosives. I sometimes name top with needles, I sometimes don't. Usually I do but the matchup is so easy that it really doesn't matter.

Reanimator: I don't know of any reanimator deck that has pithing needle.

Lands: Board out the depths combo and candelabra. They aren't very good in this matchup.

Played yesterday for the 1st time the deck. Anf went 3-2.
But today I tweaked the list and played. 50 ppl event.
Enden 1/2nd.

I like the deck cause turn 4 emrakul previus search with ugin.
Or ulamog karaks. Ulamog. Candelabra bounce gain with karakas and and cast a 3rd time ulamog is cool.
All this happened today.

Emrakul
Ulamog
4 titan
2 mul daya
4 show
3 repeal
3 map
3 crop
4 brainstorm
4 sensei
3 pithing
2 cabdelabra
Bojuka
Karakas
Glacial
Cavern
Ugin
2 vesuva
4 glimer
4 cloud
2 island
1 forest
4 tropi
4 misty


4 fluster
4 swansong
4 fow
3 krossan

1-1 canadian
2-0 stoneforge deck
2-1 burn
1-2 canadian
2-0 taxes
2-0 esper
Top 8
1-2 bug control
2-0 miracles
Pact with reanimator

Sure everyone is seeing the mono green 12post list at SCG LA. Fun to watch!

Looks like a miraculous dodging on combo, because the ONLY combo hate they are running is Teeg sideboard and Sanctity.

I do enjoy Into the North ramping into snow-covered forest and Dark Depths. Modern tech. I might try a similar build with revokers to make up for missing protection.

The first Dark Depths build I've seen that I enjoyed.

::EDIT:: Some great ideas from the mono green list though. GSZ might merit reinvestigation just as a wild growth. I also might check out Natural Order again, with dryad arborx2 and Khalni Garden as easy generators.

Hey, i've always been tempted by Dryad Arbor too, what have kept me away from that is the idea of giving our opponent a target for multiple removals that may be lying in their hands forever. Zenith into Dryad is huge, but in case this "combo" does not shows up in early turns, we risk having to play suboptimal lands, easy destructible, which paired with a wasteland or so could really ruin our day.
On the other hand, the idea of istant-fetching for dryad in response to a Liliana-edict in order to save our titan is huge too!

I am legitimately surprised this development didn't receive more discussion today. I am also curious as to whether John Kassari has an account on here, because I'd love to hear more from his perspective. This tournament featured Manaless Dredge, Belcher and Food Chain as Top 8 decks. I didn't get to see any of the tournament. I find it interesting that Kassari used a single copy of both in-and-out sweepers: Oblivion Stone and All Is Dust. I do love Sacred Ground and would also like to hear more about how he sideboarded.

I won't be able to pick up Leylines before tomorrow so I won't sleeve this one up just yet, but still, it's very interesting in that it runs neither blue nor Candels.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

I am legitimately surprised this development didn't receive more discussion today. I am also curious as to whether John Kassari has an account on here, because I'd love to hear more from his perspective. This tournament featured Manaless Dredge, Belcher and Food Chain as Top 8 decks. I didn't get to see any of the tournament. I find it interesting that Kassari used a single copy of both in-and-out sweepers: Oblivion Stone and All Is Dust. I do love Sacred Ground and would also like to hear more about how he sideboarded.

I won't be able to pick up Leylines before tomorrow so I won't sleeve this one up just yet, but still, it's very interesting in that it runs neither blue nor Candels.

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What I find more fantastical was the singleton sources of white mana for the board splash - Karakas and Savannah. Because I have to say, that SB was pretty ingenious.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Sure everyone is seeing the mono green 12post list at SCG LA. Fun to watch!

Looks like a miraculous dodging on combo, because the ONLY combo hate they are running is Teeg sideboard and Sanctity.

I do enjoy Into the North ramping into snow-covered forest and Dark Depths. Modern tech. I might try a similar build with revokers to make up for missing protection.

The first Dark Depths build I've seen that I enjoyed.

::EDIT:: Some great ideas from the mono green list though. GSZ might merit reinvestigation just as a wild growth. I also might check out Natural Order again, with dryad arborx2 and Khalni Garden as easy generators.

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I missed the deck in action, but I dug up the deck list for analysis: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65245.

3rd Place is great. By the way, I don't know where SCG keeps their archive footage, so if anyone wants to post videos as well, please feel free.

That mono-G deck has so many fun things about it! I hope to see a report link. I've had a soft spot for GSZ, but every step I make towards that list has a noticeable effect on the combo MU.. I think the mono G decks move through the field like Lands does, with a better top gear. Dodging SnT combo.

However it's going to take a hell of a lot of convincing to get me to drop 3 Blue Playsets of spells which have been the only serious candidates for legacy banning.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

That mono-G deck has so many fun things about it! I hope to see a report link. I've had a soft spot for GSZ, but every step I make towards that list has a noticeable effect on the combo MU.. I think the mono G decks move through the field like Lands does, with a better top gear. Dodging SnT combo.

However it's going to take a hell of a lot of convincing to get me to drop 3 Blue Playsets of spells which have been the only serious candidates for legacy banning.

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I'm guessing his combo matchup may partially have to do with how often he draws Teeg, as Teeg would keep you safe from all sorts of Storm, while also stopping Sneak Attack and Through the Breach...and even Force of Will. Everyone knows the terror Griselbrand feels when he encounters his greatest weakness: grass. I also love Moment's Peace as it's at least partially counterspell-resistant. Creeping Corrosion is the only card that really surprises me. Maybe he feared all sorts of robots or something? It's the only card I'm not particularly sure about.

Leyline alone will not protect you from storm.
Teeg alone will not stop storm.
Teeg AND leyline will keep storm busy finding abrupt decay for teeg, then he will cast ad nauseam, draw or tutor for chain of vapor and win.

I think the mono green plan here is to buy time to assemble the depths combo, otherwise the deck is too slow for combo.

That's why I like in general the idea of having a fast two card fetchable combo against other combos

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

Leyline alone will not protect you from storm.
Teeg alone will not stop storm.
Teeg AND leyline will keep storm busy finding abrupt decay for teeg, then he will cast ad nauseam, draw or tutor for chain of vapor and win.

I think the mono green plan here is to buy time to assemble the depths combo, otherwise the deck is too slow for combo.

That's why I like in general the idea of having a fast two card fetchable combo against other combos

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

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I'm interested in attacking for 20 instead of 2 against combo haha. In your build, what came out to make room for depths and stage?

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

I'm interested in attacking for 20 instead of 2 against combo haha. In your build, what came out to make room for depths and stage?

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Marit Lage was neat against combo yesterday: I was always untapped for brainstorm/top/counters/repeal sheningans and when I had the chance I crop rotated for depths (thespian was previously fetched by a map) and won on the spot.

I also found how nicely thespians interacts with cloudpost (obviously) and glacial chams: after the upkeep trigger goes on the stack I copied chasm with thespian and I didn't lost a single life. If you have crop rotation is even better ^_^.

I played 2 ponders and I decided to swap them for the depths combo. I'm playing 2 trinket mage though and maybe I'll try the ponders in their place again: still unsure however.


Yesterday I went to a small tournament: I won against combo (elves) with depths and with Jund, while loosing against patriot (he admitted himself that he had very good draws and that I was unlucky not drawing lands for a couple of turns) and, as usual, BUG.

I'm serious, it's like I've never won against BUG, being it the version with delver, or cascade or whatever: I really need to understand better this mathcup because I'm sure I'm playing wrong.

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I'm serious, it's like I've never won against BUG, being it the version with delver, or cascade or whatever: I really need to understand better this mathcup because I'm sure I'm playing wrong.

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Same here. I was playing Tim's list with -1 Prime Time (I draw them way, way, way, way too often) and +1 Kozilek and I smashed every match I played except BUG Delver, losing to two different BUG players. I've noted a couple things in my time playing against BUG variants:

1. Hymn to Tourach always rips at least one land out of my hand. If I'm holding two lands, Hymn gets both of them, and then I get sad.
2. If I resolve Show and Tell, the game is basically over.

Shardless BUG also follows the two above rules, but I win much more frequently because the deck, for lack of a better term, durdles. Matches take longer (and take more turns), and the more turns pass, the better our deck generally does.

I always bring in Flusterstorm against BUG and I find it works really well. I like to respond to Hymn by casting something, hoping to draw a counter. If the player takes the bait - which is often the case - I use one more blue mana to Flusterstorm. I had that exact line of play yesterday, since thankfully Hymn didn't come Turn 2. He went for Hymn, I cast Repeal on Tarmogoyf in response. He used his last blue to Spell Pierce, and I got both cards with Flusterstorm for two mana on each.

I've recently been exploring a couple of UG lists that incorporate the depths combo as a faster way to win vs non-white decks. It's been quite good in some of the faster matchups since it only takes 4 lands, only 2 of which are specific, to go off. Show and tell->primetime-> depths/stage has also been a viable way to close out the game a bit faster against jund when they have a lili already on board. Another aspect is that after grabbing a chasm, you lose 2 mana producing lands which tends to severely hinder getting to eldrazi mana. In these scenarios, I've found assembling the stage/depths combo to be easier to pull off.

Creatures (6)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Atorn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Spells (29)
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Repeal
4x Crop Rotation
4x Brainstorm
3x Show and Tell
2x Into the North

Lands (26)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Vesuva
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
2x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Dark Depths

Im not sure how much I like into the north right now. Those are two slots that I've been working with. I've tried ponder and ee in those slots as well and both seemed a bit weak. Ponder was nice to have a shuffle effect, but that was pretty much all it provided me. That was nice, but fairly low impact for this deck. EE has been either great or terrible: a lot of the times, this decks operates off of 1 colored sourced for most of the game so ee-ing for 2 has occasionally been a problem in crunch times (wanting to take jund's confidant+goyf). However, I might move back to it as it does offer a lot of potential utility in this deck. Lastly, I might change the strand to a bojuka bog just to have some md'd graveyard hate. I'm just not all that comfortable working with another etb tapped land in this already fragile manabase.

PS: I REALLY want chasm to be a snow-covered land. I mean...its a GLACIAL CHASM. Literally a chasm in a bunch of snow/ice -_-. Petition wizards for an errata :laugh:.

Been pittering with this red SB splash.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [REL] Sudden Shock
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

@somethingdotdotdot and others who have played with into the north,

is it really better than sylvan scrying? sure it ramps you, but grabbing a cloudpost that i can't play until next turn will often ramp me harder than a snow-covered forest that i get to put onto the battlefield this turn. not to mention sylvan scrying finds eye, bog, glimmerpost, karakas, chasm, etc., etc.

i play a more traditional UG list w/ candels, BS, and S+T, but i'd really like to make the switch to a mono-green stage/depths list. if anyone has experience with monogreen lists, drop some wisdom on me!

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Originally Posted by ph88

@somethingdotdotdot and others who have played with into the north,

is it really better than sylvan scrying? sure it ramps you, but grabbing a cloudpost that i can't play until next turn will often ramp me harder than a snow-covered forest that i get to put onto the battlefield this turn. not to mention sylvan scrying finds eye, bog, glimmerpost, karakas, chasm, etc., etc.

i play a more traditional UG list w/ candels, BS, and S+T, but i'd really like to make the switch to a mono-green stage/depths list. if anyone has experience with monogreen lists, drop some wisdom on me!

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It's for Dark Depths.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Been pittering with this red SB splash.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [REL] Sudden Shock
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

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So did the Dark Depths plan not working to your liking? And what happened to Khalni Garden?

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Been pittering with this red SB splash.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [REL] Sudden Shock
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

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I like this flavor of red splash the most so far, board into power! Why cut candles when you add X spells? When I ran zenith I was wanting up to 4! Hell you can add a dryad or khani and a Kessig, to make all of your dudes and revokers threats/wins..

I don't know what mystical voodoo you employ to get enough out of 3 swan songs, lol seems NUTS

I've been enjoying Rock Lee's new list and have been playing it to some success. Green Sun's Zenith was amazing allowing for 7 Primeval Titans which could also be 3 Ramp cards (never liked drawing Dryad Arbor though)

Losing Candelabra sucks but Green Sun's Zenith essentially fills half of Candel's role which allows for casting Primeval Titan with one colored land.

The only thing I would try and change with the list is to try and get a 4th repeal and to fit another red dual land in there but overall felt very solid.

First of all: I'm not going to troll:wink:

Just doing some mind games on Show & Tell, do we really need the card anymore in the deck? GSZ is sooo much better since it's only ONE card you need to draw and there isn't the drawback that your opponent put's something nasty into play. Only plan b (or c) isn't possible, early S&T into Eldrazi. Perhaps cards like Sylvian Scrying could get a chance?

Please feel free to give some feedback :wink:

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Originally Posted by Postman

First of all: I'm not going to troll:wink:

Just doing some mind games on Show & Tell, do we really need the card anymore in the deck? GSZ is sooo much better since it's only ONE card you need to draw and there isn't the drawback that your opponent put's something nasty into play. Only plan b (or c) isn't possible, early S&T into Eldrazi. Perhaps cards like Sylvian Scrying could get a chance?

Please feel free to give some feedback :wink:

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Show and Tell is important to be able to win against decks such as Painter or Lands. Even without those decks they're still very good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Postman

First of all: I'm not going to troll:wink:

Just doing some mind games on Show & Tell, do we really need the card anymore in the deck? GSZ is sooo much better since it's only ONE card you need to draw and there isn't the drawback that your opponent put's something nasty into play. Only plan b (or c) isn't possible, early S&T into Eldrazi. Perhaps cards like Sylvian Scrying could get a chance?

Please feel free to give some feedback :wink:

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If you're running blue, there's no reason to not run Show and Tell. There is no other Legacy-legal card that does what SnT does at SnT's spot on the curve. Every other card requires either more mana, other cards to enable them, or both. Quite a few decks pretty much auto-lose to SnT > Anything, including pretty much any stripe of Delver. Even if your creature immediately eats a Swords to Plowshares, you either got 6 life and two lands or a double-digit boost to your life total.

SnT also lends itself to incredibly valuable mind games. Unless a player has a sideboard solution ready to go in his hand, I've never known a player who didn't counter SnT if he had one in his hand. I've had several games where I cast SnT even when I didn't have anything other than a land or a Map to put onto the battlefield, just because I knew my opponent almost certainly had a counter. Your opponent doesn't need to know whether or not you actually have anything super scary to put onto the battlefield: all he needs to know is that if he doesn't counter it, things are about to suck for him.

Won my weekly 100$ event again. Ran fire/ice over sudden shock. Never ice'd anything. Burned many things, never two.

Matchups were Enchantress, Sneaky Show, Reanimator. Then Top 4 of a different Reanimator player, then Enchantress.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Won my weekly 100$ event again. Ran fire/ice over sudden shock. Never ice'd anything. Burned many things, never two.

Matchups were Enchantress, Sneaky Show, Reanimator. Then Top 4 of a different Reanimator player, then Enchantress.

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My dabblings with fire ice were so legit in midrange matchups. Ice functions similarly to repeal, and Fire is awesome as hell. How many did you run? When I test red I run it straight over bonfire.

Also, I've found that DRS doesn't hose moments peace as hard as I assumed, the card is good. Still a tutorable EE has been doing more work for me lately..

My latest list :

27 Lands:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor

8 Creatures:

3 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Thragtusk
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Blightwidow

25 Spells:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Repeal
3 Expedition Map
3 Show and Tell
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:

4 Force of Will
4 Swan Song
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blue Elemental Blast

This time I went 1-1-3 ;-( But I really liked the list and will keep working on it. Blightwidow was a meta-call against UR-Delver decks and will be exchanged for Oracle of Mul Daya again. GSZ is amazing, and Dryad Arbor and Sylvan Caryatid a nice ramp targets with different cmc.

MUs:

Round 1:
MUD - 0:2

Round 2:
Sliver 2:0

Round 3:
High Tide 1:1

Round 4:
The Gate 0:2

Round 5:
MUD 0:2

ATM, MUD still feels like my worst MU, no idea how to fight and win against it...The Gate was knew to me, never played against it before. Heavy discard + life loss, not a good day for my deck.

MUD is easily the worst matchup in Teir 1 or 2. It is the only MU I have conceded to hope to dodge it. It becomes contained with revoker and needle effects. But IMO it would take Force of Will and 5x Needle/Revoker effects to even start expecting wins out of it, without wicked warping to the MD. I run force and 2-3 Needles, my bet is to mull to those and hope for emrakul early.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Postman

ATM, MUD still feels like my worst MU, no idea how to fight and win against it...The Gate was knew to me, never played against it before. Heavy discard + life loss, not a good day for my deck.

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Creeping Corrosion and Beast Within could be considerations for you. I don't think Blightwidow is worth a maindeck slot, but that is kind of neat. Past that, more Obstinate Baloth and possibly Thragtusk would be the best way to fight life loss, with Baloth obviously also being stronger against discard.

I'm running Kassari's Mono-green list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65245) but am looking to make a few changes. I don't have The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, so that's out. My current tentative plan is to add in a second Gaddock Teeg in that slot. I'm also looking to replace Creeping Corrosion as I feel it doesn't do enough, so right now I'm looking at replacing 2-3 slots total. I see anything and everything in my meta, but right now there is a noticeable tilt toward BUG. There are a handful of cards I'm currently considering and I'd love to hear input:

Witchstalker:
+ Immune to almost all removal played in Legacy: combined with Dryad Arbor, it pretty much is.
+ Limits opponent's options: grows as spells get countered, encourages opponents to play Brainstorm and removal on their own turn.
+ Can present a relatively fast clock.
+ Can't be hit by Spell Pierce.
- Vulnerable to sacrifice effects until Dryad Arbor comes out.
- Needs help in order to stand up to Tarmogoyf, but can potentially outgrow it.
- Can still be countered.

Great Sable Stag:
+ Cannot be countered.
+ Immune to Abrupt Decay.
+ Can't be blocked by True-Name Nemesis.
+ Can block Germ tokens all day, giving it some extra game against Blade variants.
- Still vulnerable to a lot of commonly played removal: Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt both work.
- Vulnerable to sacrifice effects until Dryad Arbor comes out.
- Can probably only chump block Tarmogoyf.

Beast Within:
+ Kills. Absolutely. Everything not named Marit Lage. And I guess Mirran Crusader.
+ Including planeswalkers.
+ And Tarmogoyf.
+ Could be creatively used on own permanents to create a chump blocker, either to gain some virtual life or get in front of a creature to get rid of Bridge From Below.
- Gives opponent a 3/3 that can be turned sideways.
- Vulnerable to all forms of countermagic.
- Can't be found with Green Sun's Zenith.

Other than that, I can always put a couple of Obstinate Baloth back in. Any thoughts?

Why not Thrun, the last troll? Is zenith targeteable and is so good vs bug and other matchups

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elfkid

Why not Thrun, the last troll? Is zenith targeteable and is so good vs bug and other matchups

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I forgot about Thrun, probably because I'm part moron. In fairness, though, an extra mana is still a big difference. I ended up settling on Beast Within...and playing it felt good. It hit Jace and Magus of the Moon, which is decent enough value. Still deciding whether I want to stick to mono green: Gaddock Teeg is an absolute beast out of the board, but I miss the counterspells.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Won my weekly 100$ event again. Ran fire/ice over sudden shock. Never ice'd anything. Burned many things, never two.

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If that's the case, do you plan to go back to Sudden Shock. Or would Magma Jet be worth testing as you exchange uncounterability for Scry 2. Or are you going to go for Lightning Bolt?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

I forgot about Thrun, probably because I'm part moron. In fairness, though, an extra mana is still a big difference. I ended up settling on Beast Within...and playing it felt good. It hit Jace and Magus of the Moon, which is decent enough value. Still deciding whether I want to stick to mono green: Gaddock Teeg is an absolute beast out of the board, but I miss the counterspells.

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You could always try Guttural Response or Avoid Fate.

Won another weekly 17 man event with this. Basically a blending of the RUG build and the mono green build.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [CS] Into the North

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [AP] Fire/Ice
SB: 1 [MMA] Glen Elendra Archmage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Won another weekly 17 man event with this. Basically a blending of the RUG build and the mono green build.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [CS] Into the North

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [AP] Fire/Ice
SB: 1 [MMA] Glen Elendra Archmage

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Why not 4 tops? with bonfire seems good, and only 3 BS? I probably cut one revoker and put in the 4th BS

And the reason of sphere of resistance over the torn of amethist? is for a especial reason? and what happened with the flusterstorm?^^

Regards and congrats for your tournaments!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Won another weekly 17 man event with this. Basically a blending of the RUG build and the mono green build.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
2 [CS] Into the North

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 [AP] Fire/Ice
SB: 1 [MMA] Glen Elendra Archmage

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In this version you're playing only 3 blue cards maindeck (brainstorm) and 4 in the side (swan song and glen elendra, you told that you never use Ice): do you think blue is needed at all in this version?

Brainstorms could be replaced by 2 tops (functionally ALMOST the same) and a gsz target like eternal witness (recycle + block), scavenging ooze (grave hate + life gain), spike weaver (triple fog), Farhaven Elf/wood elves (for ramp since obvously you'll be playing more basics) or gaddock teeg (a bit less good because of the white cc).

Swan songs can become red elemental blast and glen elendra the third sphere of resistance, or they could also be 4 chalice of the void.

That said I'm glad to see bonfire: it has served me well and I thik it deserves more love.

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General question: do you have some tips for the BUG matchup? Being it the tempo version with delver or the midrange with cascade and liliana it seems that I cannot manage to beat it.
Can someone explains me the matchup?
Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

In this version you're playing only 3 blue cards maindeck (brainstorm) and 4 in the side (swan song and glen elendra, you told that you never use Ice): do you think blue is needed at all in this version?

Brainstorms could be replaced by 2 tops (functionally ALMOST the same) and a gsz target like eternal witness (recycle + block), scavenging ooze (grave hate + life gain), spike weaver (triple fog), Farhaven Elf/wood elves (for ramp since obvously you'll be playing more basics) or gaddock teeg (a bit less good because of the white cc).

Swan songs can become red elemental blast and glen elendra the third sphere of resistance, or they could also be 4 chalice of the void.

That said I'm glad to see bonfire: it has served me well and I thik it deserves more love.

--------

General question: do you have some tips for the BUG matchup? Being it the tempo version with delver or the midrange with cascade and liliana it seems that I cannot manage to beat it.
Can someone explains me the matchup?
Thanks.

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9 blue cards, Glen Elendra is in there too, and she costs multiple blue. The no Show & Tell plan was experimental and I still don't know if I like it. Into the North is VERY all-in on a plan, something I don't entirely enjoy. I will probably put the SnT back in, as a x2. 2 top was very experimental as well, but served me well with a sample size of 9 games (only one of my matches went to 3 games, where my opponent drew nuts.)

I would never drop Revoker down from 4. He hands down won me three of my games as a multiple. Not being too-heavily at cmc 1 allowed me to not scoop to Chalice @ 1, which normally occurs, and GSZ let me play around this normal hoser, ramping me to 3, then 4, then Titan where Tops and Brainstorms would've been dead.

The THEORY of Into the North is they can fix mana if I always go for forest first, which I do in this build anyway, but being unable to get red, requiring a Dark Depths plan (which admittedly won me 4 of my 9 games), and not being able to get utility lands all seems unusually rigid for this deck's normal adaptive theme.

Regarding the lack of blue spells, I have run the deck with only 3 brainstorms maindeck many times in the past to success and I never felt lacking of blue. GSZ + brainstorm is probably the best filter you can imagine. I threw back dryads multiple times and then gsz'd for them on the same turn.

show and tell is a sb card or meta call card

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bizdoin

show and tell is a sb card or meta call card

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Yes, if your meta is "Relevant, Competitive Legacy Decks"