sylvan is way better because you can double or even triple dredge or you can "draw" a useful card then dredge then put the draw back on top to hide it until it's time to recover it with tranquil or whatever else.
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sylvan is way better because you can double or even triple dredge or you can "draw" a useful card then dredge then put the draw back on top to hide it until it's time to recover it with tranquil or whatever else.
I personally think Mirri's Guile is a bad card in the deck, since it triggers during the upkeep. When a loam is running, the card is no longer useful, while the library can still be used to find the sb cards, to continue drawing, or to dredge multiple times in the draw step.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
However, after playing a library for a time, I find it pretty slow on game one, and I'm thinking of moving it to the sb to help touching the cards I side in at games 2-3, and privilegiate explosivity for game 1.
Because it triggers before the draw step you know wether to dredge vs draw as opposed to library where you have to wait until every other draw step to use the previous turn's information to conclude a dredge vs a draw.
Saying Library is strictly better I disagree with.
Yes Library hits more "draw" steps to flip more of the deck with multiple loams in the yard but vs miracles you are just exposing more resources to RiP while upping your chances at binning a sb card. Paying life to draw cards may work in the early turns, but is a risk if they stick meddling mages or eot entreat.
Sure you can play it this way, but if you do it, you need to choose between scrying and dredging, whereas a Library allows you to do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
For the miracles matchup, Sylvan can also be used just as Mirri's Guile if you're affraid of that kind of situations, just with one more mana (which might not be an incovenient in case of a countertop).
Another point I didn't mention is that Library can be used to "clean" the top of your library by paying 8 life points when no fetch is available. This allows you to see 3 fresh cards on the next turn. Although being dangerous in some situations, it can help finding the Punishing Fire that will save your life against a flipped Delver for instance, or accelerate assembling a fast combo. With a Mirri's Guile, you only see one more card per turn in this situation. I agree this situation is not the most frequent, but it is another reason why I prefer Sylvan over Mirri.
One benefit Library has over Mirri's Guile is the carddraw it offers at the cost of life, in conjunction with Marit Lage getting plowed. Carddrawing into combopieces until they run out of swords, and pay for it all with the 20 life you just gained. There's some sweet irony in this :)
Pure speculation incoming:
I can imagine Library being better all around vs guile simply because options are a good thing to have in a deck. You can either draw or put the top two back, or top one even. I feel like vs miracles you may end up with a Chalice on 1 anyway, so a library will almost always be successful, in the event you get an early Chalice then drawing into Guile vs Libary. But this is What If: the Gathering :)
If you have 3 Loams active, no cost of life to Mill 9.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivfader
Seriously? No pay 4 life per dredge? That sounds too good to be true, judge at my local store said I have to pay 4 per dredgeQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Dredge is a replacement effect and since you didn't actually draw any cards you can't put any back. It's also important to know that if you dredge once and then take two draws you still have to put back or pay for both of the normally drawn cards in order to satisfy the "put two of the cards drawn this turn back on your library... (original text, not oracle, I'm sure it's slightly different)" text.
This is one of those interactions that is helpful to play with on MTGO since it works correctly there and it lets you see exactly how the different scenarios happen.
Remember: if you dredge, you replace the draw (you never draw a card).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar
So if you have a Sylvan Library in play and 3 Loams in the graveyard you can replace the first draw (the turn-based action draw) dredging one Loam, then on Sylvan Library's triggered ability resolution you can replace the other two draws dredging the other two Loams (if you have at least 6 cards in your library). Then you have to "[...] choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library."
But you have drawn 0 cards this turn, so you don't have to pay life at all!
On Sylvan Library:
I've got two or three videos doing busted stuff with it, such as the aforementioned "draw a bunch of cards because Lage has been plowed twice" or "dredge Loam and see a bunch of extra cards anyway" scenarios. It's a pretty sweet card. Kinda want to put it back in my board.
In any case, a couple more videos, courtesy of my wife taking our daughter out to shop.
Building a Fortress #82
Building a Fortress #83
Just a warning: I make a significant (albeit MTGO-only style) blunder in game one of #83.
well while seeing the video i think i would have made the same mistake on mtgo xDQuote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
And about the tabernacle decision on #82, i would mox
gamble for tabernacle for sure, going to 6 its too dangerous, he spend a lot of resources and give him a clock and just a minimum 3 storm kill its too risky, not worth taking in my opinion.
No cost to mill once or thrice, if you mill twice it costs you. Basically if you never actually draw a card with Library, it's damage trigger never has a reason to activate. Replaced ability of Dredge is not drawing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar
I know I'm the millionth person to say this, but seriously THANK YOU for these videos. It's a great resource to study up on r/g lands match ups and I enjoy watching your games! Sweet storm victory btw, always a good day when lands beats storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
Ugh, judges deff made me pay life to dredge multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
That's a mistake then. It says so right in the rulings for Sylvan LibraryQuote:
Originally Posted by Cfetchcaviar
From the Comprehensive Rules (Nov 13, 2015):Quote:
9/16/2007: If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.
Because it says "if you would draw a card" that's a special wording to indicate that the following text is going to replace the act of drawing [that] card. Simply put:Quote:
702.51a. Dredge is a static ability that functions only while the card with dredge is in a player's graveyard. "Dredge N" means "As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand."
At the start of your draw step you have an option to dredge or to not dredge Loam to replace the draw. If you choose to dredge you dredge 3 and the put the Loam into your hand. You never actually drew a card. Likewise with Sylvan Library's triggered ability you have the option to draw an extra two cards and for each of those cards you would draw you may dredge any available Loam; these Loams just "appear" in your hand because they were not drawn (drawn from where??). Because you haven't actually drawn any cards this turn Library's condition "if you do [draw extra cards]" never applies.
As an added Sylvan Library note just to make it clear. If you announce a dredge for a Sylvan Library draw during your draw step - you can sequence it in any order. For example - you can:
- Look at the top 2 cards and dredge Loam - milling cards 3,4,5
- Look at the top 1 and 5 cards and dredge Loam milling cards 2,3,4
- Dredge Loam milling cards 1,2,3 and then looking at cards 4 and 5.
This can obviously come up if you know cards from previous Library Activations. If you have 2 Loams in your graveyard you can sequence it like:
- Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Dredge Loam milling 4,5,6 and then look at the top card.
- Look at the top card, Dredge Loam milling 2,3,4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7
- Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Look at card 4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7
Keep in mind you can't "look" at a card in these sequences and then decide whether to dredge it over or not. You must announce what you are doing for each of your Sylvan Library draw phases.
As what was discussed, if you have 3 Loams you can dredge all 3 for Sylvan.
If at any time you decide to Dredge+Draw you will always have to pay for your "DRAWS" - not dredges.
So for example in this sequence: - Dredge Loam milling 1,2,3. Look at card 4. Dredge Loam milling 5,6,7. If I choose to take card 4 and draw it then I will pay 4 life. If I don't draw card 4 then I don't have to pay any life for the two dredges of Loam that took place.
Hopefully that all made sense.
Sorry but that's not 100 percent correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyp3r1on
If you activate Library and draw a card you are required to place two cards drawn this turn back on top of your library or pay four life. Basically if you dredge two loams you have to either pay four life and put card "4" back or pay 8 life. There is one exception to this, if you cycle tranquil thicket or activate horizon canopy during your upkeep, this is because its a card you have drawn this turn, its gets a little ugly though because you normally have to call a judge to make that play.
The long and short of it is the following
a. dredge 3 loams and pay no life
b. dredge 2 loams and pay 4 life and put one card back or pay 8 life and keep one card
c. dredge 1 loam and pay 0 life and put two cards back or pay 4 life an keep one card or pay 8 life and keep both cards
d. Draw a card during you upkeep and mess A-C up
Yes, sorry you are absolutely correct about the "2 loam" situation in terms of life liss. Thanks for the clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Rampart
I dont agree. Sylvan Library will try to do (make you choose) as much as possible, but won't punish you for something you cannot do.
If after Sylvan activation you can legally choose only one card actually drew this turn, then you only have to put this card back on top of your library, or pay 4 life to keep it in your hand, not 8 life.
From the Gatherer rulings: “9/16/2007
If you choose to draw two cards (off of Sylvan Library), then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library’s ability still happens. If you’ve actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven’t actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect. (but still happens)”
So it is like this (with the hypotheses you didn't draw card from cantrip, Horizon Canopy or others ways prior to Sylvan Library activation)
1) Draw 3 cards, dredge 0 card : Put back 2 cards drew this turn or pay 4 life per card you dont put back.
2) Draw 2 cards, dredge 1 card : Put back 2 cards drew this turn (not the dredged one) or pay 4 life per card you dont put back.
3) Draw 1 card, dredge 2 cards : Put back 1 card drew this turn (not the dredged one) or pay 4 life per card you dont put back.
4) Draw 0 card, dredge 3 cards : You CANT put back card drew this turn, so the second part of the library dont have any effect.
so if you choose to not put back anythings :
1) pay 8 life
2) pay 8 life
3) pay 4 life
4) pay 0 life
I think this is the correct scenario (or at least how I've been playing it). I would be very surprised if it turned out otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
The card itself asks you to put back two cards if you drew any with its actervation. If you can't, you pay 4x X where X is equal to the amount you did not put back. If you put back only one and drew any cards at all, you lose 4 Life for failing to put back "Two cards drawn this turn."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivfader
To be honest, we are hashing over old conversations here. Just read this:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...am-interaction
Library ask you to put back two cards drew this turn. But if you didn't actually drew two cards, it will performs as much as possible. Exactly the same way Hymn to Tourach ask target player to discard two cards, if that player has only 1 card in hand, the spell won't fizzle, it will just do as much as possible.
I'm pretty sur to be right, sorry.
You might be. I honestly don't see myself playing the card.
In other news, I got hammered by Prime Time in a Lands Mirror this week. I am cutting Chokes since I have not used them in weeks for a pair of Primes. That is until I can get one Vinecrasher for the mirror and I am going to run a split. The mirror, such a coin flip.
Prime is a Bomb as a SB, right now. Never thought about Vinecrasher, seems legit (can get huge and has trample... Wow)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
My pleasure. You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhabatman
To clear things out, here's the ruling on Sylvan Library, concerning the previous discussion.
"If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect."
damn, you're right...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
seems very similar to worm harvest in the role it would fill.
i had a player side in grafdigger's cage against me 'cause worm harvest ate him alive.
the vinecrasher gets around the cage.
Yeah, only one problem: it's also GY-dependant. Prime is still better, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
I was going to run both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
The thing about Graveyard interaction is that they either have a one off effect, a pinpoint effect or a continuous effect. In the case of a one off I think the card is fine, in the case of pin point nothing changes. In the case of continuous I then want a Prime over Vine but even then that effect has to be RIP and not Leyline or Vine still has an effect.
I don't think for about 4 bucks I lose in trying out the card.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good card to try :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Merry Christmas everyone.
Merry days are here! Enjoy everyone!
Merry Xmas! Good holiday for a :r:/:g: deck, I should think.
happy x-mas thesourcers!!
a question for you, do you guys still playing 1 off manabond ?
I pick up a stock RG Build to test a few time ago and manabond was always pretty mediocre, most of the times i had lands i don´t wanna drop, another times already have exploration and its better.. i played RUGb lands for a long time back in the day and manabond was fine cause i played 38-39 lands, now the account is lower and never get valeu from that.
I replaced that for 1 sylvan lybrary main, not sure if worth the spot yet but had to test something, and so far its at least better than manabond.
Have other sugestions for main ? maybe molten vortex ?
I love the card. Nothing gets me further ahead then an active Loam and Bond.
I've strongly thought about replacing manabond for something else too, but the number of times that I've had the nut draw and could t2 swing with lage is enough to keep it in my main for now
This comes up from time to time, but the general consensus is to keep Manabond in (for reasons already given). The only other question you should ask yourself is: one or two Manabond. I went down to one, and so far like it like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestral
well any exploration effect makes you ahead too, and manabond is a win more in the few cases that gets active in my expiience :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
i know that can be backbreaking but the times that puts me ahead and its dead, its more often than to me, thats why i asked ;) but thank for the input :)
well i guess that happen to me like once in more than 50 Matches, had an opener 7 with 1 off manabons + 2 lands + thespian + DD its pretty rare, so that situation cross my mind but i think isn´t relevant enough.Quote:
Dominic Pain
I've strongly thought about replacing manabond for something else too, but the number of times that I've had the nut draw and could t2 swing with lage is enough to keep it in my main for now
You though in any specific replacment?
Bond does a few things I like.
One. Let's me dump if I am Loaming, Thicket and Loaming. I have 5 Lands in hand and that's not as uncommon in as it sounds.
Two. Let's me discard Loam. Something you might not think you want to do until your using all your mana to hold down someone with Ports.
Three. Makes Chasm beyond busted. You get much further ahead when looking Chasm with Bond then Exploration.
Four. Adds two more Exploration effects. Something you want.
Five. Gives you speed in game one while being an easy cut game two and three once you increase your non land count.
Six. Everything else I have missed someone else posts after.